When to look for the rapture of the church

Copperhead · Mar 22, 2019

yeah, Dave. They might have had a chance with my years ago until I started to find many illusions to the pre-trib in the OT and when I started doing a detailed look at 2 Thessalonians 2:3. That was what sealed it... pre-trib... air tight.

safswan · Mar 23, 2019

Copperhead said:
One little teensy flaw in your logic. The church was not an entity yet when the Olivet discourse was delivered, so it is unreasonable to assume that it was directed to the church. And the disciples are NOT the foundation of the church, Yeshua is! Couldn't also be for the disciples' benefit as all of them were dead or in exile by the time 70AD rolled around. And there was no abomination of desolation set up in the Temple in 70 AD as Daniel described. The Temple was torched and torn apart for the melted gold.

It is clear you do not understand what the church is.Let me help you.

Church - 1577,ekklēsia; From a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

The Church in relation to Christ are those called out by God to believe in Christ.Hence all those called to Christ as disciples had become a part of the church.Proof of this is seen in Jesus' teaching about the building of and conduct in the same.

Mattthew16:
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Contrary to your opinion the concept of the church was known prior to the "Olivet discourse".

Again contrary to your opinion the scriptures DO VIEW the apostles as the foundation of the church.Read it here:

Ephesians 2:
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

You also misunderstand what Jesus said about the, "abomination of desolation", also called:

Luk 21:
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Compare:
Mat 24:
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mar 13:
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

The abomination(which makes desolate) is the action of the Roman armies encompassing Jerusalem.History shows,contrary to your opinion again,that Christians were in Jerusalem at this time and even if the original apostles.disciples were not around then those who were continuing in the way,would have known of and benefited from this prophecy of Jesus.As one source said:

"Cestius Gallus having advanced with his army to Jerusalem, and besieged it, on a sudden, without any cause, raised the siege, and withdrew his army, when the city might have been easily taken; by which means a signal was made; and an opportunity given to the Christians, to make their escape: which they accordingly did, and went over Jordan, as Eusebius says (b), to a place called Pella; so that when Titus came a few mouths after, there was not a Christian in the city, but they had fled as they are here bidden to."( De Bello Jud. l. 2. c. 19. sect. 7; Eccl. Hist. l. 3. c. 5. p. 75.)

Copperhead said:
And if you think for even one minute that the events of 70 AD met the condition of this next verse, you need to seek counseling. This passage is right there with the Abomination, Fleeing, Shabbat, etc stuff being laid out.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The passage above has caused much misunderstanding as many take it to mean "more people shall be killed than at any other time". This is not so and the horrors suffered by the people of Jerusalem have been documented by Josephus who said:

"never did any city suffer such things, nor was there ever any generation that more abounded in malice or wickedness.''(De Bello Jud. l. 6. c. 11)

This is the context in which you should view the statement above.I am of the opinion that no other single city (and surrounding areas of Judea) have ever suffered the horrors experienced by the inhabitants of Jerusalem and Judea at that time.You should read the history by Josephus to get the full understanding of what happened to one city and how many died in one city.

Copperhead said:
The Olivet discourse is directed at Jerusalem and the nation of Israel. Matthew 23:37-39.

This is entirely untrue.Only a blind person would not be able to see from the study I presented that Jesus made a distinction between Israel and what they were to suffer and Christians who would be persecuted by them but who would escape the horrors of the Jerusalem siege and destruction by following the Lord's instructions.

BABerean2 · Mar 23, 2019

Copperhead said:
That was what sealed it... pre-trib... air tight.

Except for the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, which is specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:18-24.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

Copperhead · Mar 23, 2019

safswan said:
The Church in relation to Christ are those called out by God to believe in Christ.Hence all those called to Christ as disciples had become a part of the church.Proof of this is seen in Jesus' teaching about the building of and conduct in the same.

Mattthew16:
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You forgot to highlight the "I will" before the "build my church". Yeshua was speaking future tense. So the disciples standing in front of Him was not the "church" as we know it from Shavuot 30AD onward.

But I still stand that from Matthew 23:37 onward to Matthew 25:46, the primary audience that the discourse is towards is the Hebrew people. Not the redeemed that make up the Ekklesia.

And that would be supplemented by the fact that the Ekklesia of Messiah is removed prior to these events transpiring.

And

safswan said:
The passage above has caused much misunderstanding as many take it to mean "more people shall be killed than at any other time".

It only causes confusion to those who do not remember the questions that were asked in Matthew 24:3 by the disciples. Yeshua's discourse is based on those questions which were regarding Yeshua's return and the end. So the entire discourse of Matthew 24:4 on thru Matthew 25:46 regards those questions. The end times is the only proper time frame of the discourse.

Dkml · Apr 6, 2019

safswan said:
Not true.Noah walked into the ark and was in the midst of the destruction.Just a short walk over the deck would prove fatal.No rapture here.
Yep. But you are forgetting that Enoch was raptured just before the flood. And the significance of that as a "type" before the coming destruction.

Not true again.Lot walked away from the area of danger.He was so close to it that his wife was destroyed because of her disobedience.No rapture here.

Did not say they were not removed from the area of wrath.I said:

"Neither Noah nor Lot were removed from the earth.Both were in close proximity to the disaster around them."

Not sure about where seven or three and a half years comes from but I don't need a strategy,neither do you.We simply need to trust in God to deliver us as He has delivered His people in the past and even as He has promised to do in the future.[See,Exodus 8:22,23; 9:4,25,26; 10:21-23;12:12,13; Daniel 3:19-28;6:16-24; Ezekiel 9:1-6;I Peter 4:17;Revelation 7:1-3;3:10]

Or trust in Him to keep the soul even though the flesh may perish.[See,Luke 21:15-18;Acts 7:59]

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 9, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George
.

Would make for a interesting thread:

Two-peoples-and-two-meanings systems
quote: Interplanner said;

Those who believe there are two peoples of God will inevitably end up with a very different idea of "Eschatology--Endtimes & Prophecy". They see about 10,000 feet of concrete between the two, so that whatever took place at the coming of the Gospel has nothing to do with the other group of people. In fact, a full-blown restoration or return to the other group never does, or needs to, show up in Acts, in NT letters, in any of the MO of the apostles; it's "just there." It doesn't matter what NT passages say about promises to the other people, God doesn't "change," so any passage at all from the OT has to happen, no matter what the NT says.

Parallel to this is the "two meanings" of Mt 24 &//s (Mk 13, Lk 19&21). Becasue of the two peoples, it is absolutely clear to these good people that Jesus was perfectly normal in giving the most scattered of explanations. Utterly urgent warnings...for people thousands of years in the future! Why, of course. Wasn't he that schitzophrenic all through his ministry? How could I have missed it? No, I think he was completely coherent about the events that would take place in that generation, with a bit of an echo that if something would happen in the distant future it would at least copy or replicate what was described:

a pretend 'messianic' antichrist(s),
a failed messianic war for the land of Judea,
Sabbath (ie Mosaic law) police making many miserable...etc

A person needs to sort out:
1, whether the NT is the authoritative statement about the two peoples in Eph 2-3 etc (as opposed to popular prophecy teachers now), and
2, where he goes with #1 into prophecy. They don't go to the same place.

Why would the plainly stated doctrinal passages of the NT never mention anything in the future for Israel--I mean not even the slightest 'need' for any prophecy to be fulfilled--in their treatments of the promises, shape, destiny, history and conclusion of Israel's role in the arrival of the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

Whenever I hear that 2nd century church fathers wrote about Revelation like the popular prophecy teachers of today, I have to place this beside the remark I hear all the time from 'messianic' friends: that shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem, the church immersed in anti-semitism (as though the destruction of Jerusalem was the only statement by God about such things). Both cannot be true, and both have lost their grip, as far as I can tell.

Paul interprets this for us with 3 emphatic nows in the verses following the quote. But even without that, a person might see that he's (Paul) talking about the prophets future, not his own. The Redeemer came and took away sins. Past tense, setting up the reasons why neither Jew nor Gentile should think it 'is all about them' anymore forever. God has now judged all and now had mercy on all in Jesus Christ.

I think if you'll look through Rom 9-11, you'll find this (historic fulfillment, not ours now) is the mentality throughout. Passage after passage is quoted as fulfilled in the Christ event--the historic Gospel. Not about something anticipated in the future.

An Ephesians 1 passage is very instructive here. The ascendancy of Christ as Lord is as true in this age as in the age to come. So we must all do a better job of unpacking what has already happened because of this.

One passage about the future by Peter is specifically to answer the question of why hasn't or why didn't more happen by the end of Peter's life (hard to tell if he was writing before or after Jerusalem's implosion), 2 Pet 3. But he can't mean the 1st coming when he talks about scoffers saying where is his coming. He must meant 2nd. So the details that follow are extremely important and there is nothing Judaic about them. What matters is that there is an allowance for a lot of time so that more people can be saved. Ie, the one place where we know for sure an apostle is speaking about doubt about the 2nd coming, there are no details mentioned about future Israel, restored temple, nothing Judaic matters to him. The new heavens and earth do.

--Inter

Copperhead · Apr 9, 2019

The problem many have with the concept that there can be two groups that are elect of God is confusing election with justification / redemption.

The Hebrew people can be "elect" because of the promises to the Patriarchs, but that doesn't imply that all Hebrews are justified / redeemed before the Lord.

On the other hand, the only way to be part of the "elect" group called the body of Messiah, or "church", is to be justified. There are no unjustified / unredeemed in the Body. There is only redeemed.

Only a redeemed Hebrew can be a member of both groups. That is what Paul was talking about when he said....

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

That doesn't mean the Hebrews (all Israel) as a whole are no longer a valid entity or that the church has replaced them. Nor does it mean there is a two covenant or two people thing going on when it comes to justification / redemption.

There are also "elect" angels (1 Timothy 5:21), but there is nothing in scripture that says Yeshua died for angels justification / redemption. Those that fell are forever fallen and there is no redemption offered to them. They had far more direct knowledge of the Lord than we ever could this side of eternity, yet they rebelled. They are forever lost. But those that didn't rebel are "elect" angels. They have the forever status they had from the time they were created. They have no need to be justified / redeemed.

So again, the failure of some to realize that election does not always have anything to do with justification / redemption and confusing the two concepts is what leads to some convoluted theology.

keras · Apr 9, 2019

Copperhead said:
So again, the failure of some to realize that election does not always have anything to do with justification / redemption and confusing the two concepts is what leads to some convoluted theology.

Yours is the 'convoluted theology' and the 'failure to understand', that there is only ONE people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6. Romans 2:10-11, +

Making out that there is a future redemption for those who call themselves Jews, is a falsehood upon a lie. Jesus told us what He thought of them. Revelation 3:9
There is the true Israel of God in the world. They are all those people who have chosen to follow Jesus now and will be revealed on the Day of the Lord's wrath upon the nations.

Copperhead · Apr 10, 2019

keras said:
Making out that there is a future redemption for those who call themselves Jews, is a falsehood upon a lie. Jesus told us what He thought of them. Revelation 3:9

The redemption of the Hebrew people is as an elect people and nation, not as individuals. The latter, redemption is the same path as anyone. You have shown that you have a confusion of election and justification/redemption. That always seems to be the stumbling block that people trip over. And I am quite comfortable with you calling what I adhere to a convoluted theology, especially when your rebuttal is only from the NT and the Torah requirement is that for any matter to be established it requires two witnesses and the Bereans showed us that standard is confirmation witness from both OT and NT. They make the two witnesses. Not two or more from the same testament. So since you did not meet the evidentiary requirement in your response, then I am scripturally allowed to dismiss it. So I feel no intimidation whatsoever that you feel my theology is convoluted.

And before you can say that I didn't also not follow the Torah requirement, the NT shows us 4 of the tribes specifically referenced as present and James, Peter, and the writer of Hebrews seem to all know where all the tribes are. So I still contend they were never "lost" or disperse in such a way as to bring about what we see being argued today.

I get the distinct feeling that all the ideas about the 10 tribes making up the various regions of the earth and such stuff is just another variation on hatred of the Jewish people. The level of animus shown in some arguing for that positions seems to evidence a antisemitic undercurrent. I would think if some feel those that claim to be Israelites and make up the nation of Israel today would just ignore them if they are imposters. Why would a group of 6 million living in an country the size of New Jersey surrounded by millions of Muslims that are bent on ridding the planet of them cause so much consternation to someone in New Zealand or anywhere else for that matter?

If they are imposters, it will be shown in time. If they are not, then one could find themselves fighting against God. I think it would be the wiser choice just to sit it out and wait if one is not sure instead of trying to convince people that they are imposters. That is one of those issues that can be very damaging to be on the wrong side if one is against God. I really don't see any problem with YHVH nearly as bad if I am wrong and they are imposters. That would be a error. But given what YHVH had to say about blessing and cursing the Hebrew people, if they are who they say they are and one fights against that, it could have some bad ramifications.

If I am to err, then I will err on the side of caution.

lismore · Apr 18, 2019

jgr said:
Quotes, please.

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

St Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 A.D.)

jgr · Apr 18, 2019

lismore said:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

St Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 A.D.)

Pseudo-Ephraem:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" .

The above is a quote from the Latin version, which appeared after the original Syriac version.

The original Syriac version read:

"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!"

The escape was via death, not rapture.

There is considerable controversy regarding the authorship and dating of these documents, of which there were multiple variants. Wikipedia has a good summary.

For those who insist on citing Pseudo-Ephraem, the original Syriac version is obviously the more credible.

It is not pretrib.

ewq1938 · Apr 18, 2019

lismore said:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

St Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 A.D.)

It goes back further than that.

The idea of a pretrib rapture took place back in Paul's day due to people misunderstanding something he said.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spiritually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night

Copperhead · Apr 19, 2019

jgr said:
Pseudo-Ephraem:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" .

The above is a quote from the Latin version, which appeared after the original Syriac version.

The original Syriac version read:

"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!"

The escape was via death, not rapture.

There is considerable controversy regarding the authorship and dating of these documents, of which there were multiple variants. Wikipedia has a good summary.

For those who insist on citing Pseudo-Ephraem, the original Syriac version is obviously the more credible.

It is not pretrib.

I rely on Dr. Ken Johnson's, among others, analysis of the sermon of Ephraim. Johnson is a recognized expert on documents from antiquity, and he concurs that the intent of Ephraim is regarding the Tribulation period. Johnson is an expert in the ancient languages. Your assertion is made regarding an English translation you submitted which doesn't carry any more weight that what you are countering.

I refer you to "Ancient Church Fathers", Ken Johnson, Th. D., 2010, ISBN 1452868565

And Cyprian of Carthage (about 250 AD) in the Treatises of Cyprian 21-26 and Epistle 55 also supports a pre-trib departure of the redeemed.

Irenaeus (AD 170) in Against Heresies 5.29 - When in the end that the church will suddenly be caught up from this , it is said, "There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be"

The literary work Shepherd of Hermas (AD 150), not canon for sure, but expresses a common theme of the early believers regarding escaping the tribulation period the will come upon the earth. SOH 2.2-6 - Go therefore and declare to the Elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the Great Tribulation which is to come. If ye therefore prepare yourselves and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentance, then shall ye be able to escape it, if your heart is pure and blameless... the golden color stands for you who have escaped from this world... Now ye know the symbol of the Great tribulation to come. But if ye are willing, it shall be nothing.

I am sure that all the various views on the end were represented to some degree or another by the 4th Century. But to say the pre-trib removal of the righteous was not a concept early on is myopic at best and malicious at worse.

jgr · Apr 19, 2019

Copperhead said:
I rely on Dr. Ken Johnson's, among others, analysis of the sermon of Ephraim. Johnson is a recognized expert on documents from antiquity, and he concurs that the intent of Ephraim is regarding the Tribulation period. Johnson is an expert in the ancient languages. Your assertion is made regarding an English translation you submitted which doesn't carry any more weight that what you are countering.

I refer you to "Ancient Church Fathers", Ken Johnson, Th. D., 2010, ISBN 1452868565

And Cyprian of Carthage (about 250 AD) in the Treatises of Cyprian 21-26 and Epistle 55 also supports a pre-trib departure of the redeemed.

Irenaeus (AD 170) in Against Heresies 5.29 - When in the end that the church will suddenly be caught up from this , it is said, "There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be"

The literary work Shepherd of Hermas (AD 150), not canon for sure, but expresses a common theme of the early believers regarding escaping the tribulation period the will come upon the earth. SOH 2.2-6 - Go therefore and declare to the Elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the Great Tribulation which is to come. If ye therefore prepare yourselves and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentance, then shall ye be able to escape it, if your heart is pure and blameless... the golden color stands for you who have escaped from this world... Now ye know the symbol of the Great tribulation to come. But if ye are willing, it shall be nothing.

I am sure that all the various views on the end were represented to some degree or another by the 4th Century. But to say the pre-trib removal of the righteous was not a concept early on is myopic at best and malicious at worse.

Yes, Ephraem is about the tribulation period.

And the saints who are alive are in it.

Those saints who are not in it are those who have died prior to it.

But no camp can cite Ephraem as authoritative, because the dearth of evidence; and inconsistencies in and disagreements about what evidence does exist; disqualify it.

Copperhead · Apr 19, 2019

jgr said:
Yes, Ephraem is about the tribulation period.

And the saints who are alive are in it.

Those saints who are not in it are those who have died prior to it.

Yes, saints are in it. Those that weren't saints and removed before it started. The saints in it are the ones who went into the GT period not as saints but had a "come to Jesus" moment and turned to Him. It is no different than the saints who were resurrected just after Yeshua's resurrection and taken to the Father. Those saints were not part of the "church" either but just as redeemed in the same way as any other redeemed.... by the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua.

jgr said:
But no camp can cite Ephraem as authoritative, because the dearth of evidence; and inconsistencies in and disagreements about what evidence does exist; disqualify it.

But Irenaeus and Tertullian we are quite comfortable with them being authoritative. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle. I posted a passage from him earlier.

But Tertullian (AD 207) has this also to say in Against Marcion 5.16.... He [Paul] says those who remain unto the coming of Christ, along with the dead in Christ, will rise first, being "caught up to meet the Lord in the air"... By the mouth of Isaiah, it was said long ago "who are these who fly like clouds unto me, as doves with their young ones". (quoted from Septuagint Isaiah 60:8)

And if we also look at Isaiah 26:19-21, Psalms 27:5, and John 14:1-3 in light of that quote above, it becomes very clear that the redeemed are taken and secured where the Lord is before the GT period. There is ample scripture support from both NT and OT (as required in the Torah regarding evidentiary standard) for a early removal of the redeemed before the GT period and several pre 4th century church documents that show that idea was held by some of them also.

jgr · Apr 19, 2019

Copperhead said:
Yes, saints are in it. Those that weren't saints and removed before it started. The saints in it are the ones who went into the GT period not as saints but had a "come to Jesus" moment and turned to Him. It is no different than the saints who were resurrected just after Yeshua's resurrection and taken to the Father. Those saints were not part of the "church" either but just as redeemed in the same way as any other redeemed.... by the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua.

But Irenaeus and Tertullian we are quite comfortable with them being authoritative. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle. I posted a passage from him earlier.

But Tertullian (AD 207) has this also to say in Against Marcion 5.16.... He [Paul] says those who remain unto the coming of Christ, along with the dead in Christ, will rise first, being "caught up to meet the Lord in the air"... By the mouth of Isaiah, it was said long ago "who are these who fly like clouds unto me, as doves with their young ones". (quoted from Septuagint Isaiah 60:8)

And if we also look at Isaiah 26:19-21, Psalms 27:5, and John 14:1-3 in light of that quote above, it becomes very clear that the redeemed are taken and secured where the Lord is before the GT period. There is ample scripture support from both NT and OT (as required in the Torah regarding evidentiary standard) for a early removal of the redeemed before the GT period and several pre 4th century church documents that show that idea was held by some of them also.

Dr. Thomas Ice, Executive Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:

"
Irenaeus
Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
"

jgr · Apr 19, 2019

Copperhead said:
But Irenaeus and Tertullian we are quite comfortable with them being authoritative.

Irenaeus: 130-202 AD

Tertullian: 160-220 AD

Ephrem: 306-373 AD

How could Irenaeus and Tertullian be "comfortable with them being authoritative" if they never laid eyes on them?

Copperhead · Apr 19, 2019

jgr said:
Dr. Thomas Ice, Executive Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:

"
Irenaeus
Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
"

Ok. I will give you that just for the sake of argument. But Ice also confirms what I stated about the Shepherd of Hermas. The only caveat Ice provides is a comment from Dr. Walvoord regarding the doctrine of immanency. That doesn't negate in any way that the concept of a pre-trib removal of the righteous was indeed part of the thinking of some in the early days of the church.

And again, Isaiah is quite clear.....

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

Especially in light of......

John 14:2-3 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

And....

Psalms 27:5 For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle;
In the secret place of His tent He will hide me;
He will lift me up on a rock.

And...

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

I would say that categorically the pre-trib idea was expressed many centuries before the church was even an entity, let alone during its early years. The Torah requirement of two witnesses and the Berean affirmation of that requirement and how it is to be used.... both OT and NT as the two witnesses.... makes the point.

keras · Apr 19, 2019

Read this and renounce your 'pre trib rapture' beliefs:

Letter from Corrie Ten Boom - 1974
"The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers. Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

We may have been the Lord's only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting "Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" for I have found where it is written that Jesus said,

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things:
and I will be His God,
and he shall be My son."

This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick.
"Yes, the Lord will heal me,", Betsy said with confidence.
She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,

"We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution, rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."

I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.

Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

"If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you;
on their part evil is spoken of,
but on your part He is glorified."
(I Peter 3:14)

I found myself saying, "Hallelujah!
Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!"

In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, "Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?"

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

"When I was a little girl, " I said, "I went to my father and said,
"Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ."
"Tell me," said Father,
"When you take a train trip to Amsterdam,
when do I give you the money for the ticket?
Three weeks before?"

"No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train."

"That is right," my father said, "and so it is with God's strength.
Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.
He will supply all you need – just in time…"

My African friends were nodding and smiling.
Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing,

" In the sweet, by and by,
we shall meet on that beautiful shore."

Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed.
I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution?

First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History,
but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive
and sitting at the right hand of God.

We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other.
But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting.
The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also.
But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.

"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him", (Job 13:15)

for I know that to all who overcome,
He shall give the crown of life.
Hallelujah!"

- Corrie Ten Boom - 1974

jgr · Apr 19, 2019

Copperhead said:
I was speaking "we" in terms of many scholars believe those two were authoritative. Quit acting like my younger grand children. Would have been realistic if you had posted what I said instead of a paraphrase to be contentious.

Quit responding before you've taken at least a millisecond to read a post. I spoke unambiguously of the authority of Ephrem's writings. Nothing to do with "those two". Try a little harder next time.

When to look for the rapture of the church

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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I love you three.

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