Argument for God's existence.

ToddNotTodd · Apr 19, 2019

gradyll said:
I have evidence for everything I believe.

So where is the evidence for the story you mentioned?

But because it's not proof you won't accept it. I hope you can see this one fact.

It’s demonstrably false. You can find many instances where I say that “proof” is only for alcohol and math. I believe I’ve even said this to you...

I find it hypocritical for atheists to require proof when they themselves dont prove anything.

As atheism is just a disbelief in god’s, there’s nothing to “prove”.

And as far as I can tell, you’re not getting atheists here asking for proof. Just evidence.

An atheist that says there is no God. Can he prove that statement? They don't even try. Sorry if I think it's just hypocritical.

I know no atheists that say there is no god. Do you have examples here that you can share ?

createdtoworship · Apr 19, 2019

ToddNotTodd said:
So where is the evidence for the story you mentioned?

It’s demonstrably false. You can find many instances where I say that “proof” is only for alcohol and math. I believe I’ve even said this to you...

As atheism is just a disbelief in god’s, there’s nothing to “prove”.

And as far as I can tell, you’re not getting atheists here asking for proof. Just evidence.

I know no atheists that say there is no god. Do you have examples here that you can share ?

how is it demonstrably false? This is where your arguments always fail, you say some positive statement, I ask for proof, and then you can't give it. I have evidence for all my positions, but it is not proof. See you state that your own views have evidence, yet you provide none. And yet you ask for not just evidence you ask for proof. I know this because when I provide evidence, you want more proof.

you don't believe it as evidence.

So that is why this discussion is exhausted.

surely you agree.

thanks again.

cvanwey · Apr 19, 2019

gradyll said:
God answers prayer. The answers to our prayer will be one of three things. Yes, No, and not now. When God does not answer a prayer first I analyze and pray for God to reveal sin that may have hindered the prayer. Dont be surprised if He does reveal sin, every week I see new sins that I didnt realize the week before. Secondly if there is nothing, then I trust the Lord that He heard me and yet the answer is still no. That happens more than I would like to admit. But when walking with the Lord and living in obedience more prayers are answered yes than no. But if you start to get cocky, then God stops answering prayer, and breaks you, or subtly reminda you from which you came. I used to pray for millions of dollars. And God likes us to trust in Him. So the answer was no to those prayers. But what God did help me to do, is learn the stock market. If I had easy millions I would never have learned that. Nor would I live day to day in trust. A wealthy person typically thinks that they are rich because of their own hand, and they forget God. Those who have to pray to have daily things provided have a much richer walk with the Lord. Many many people will talk about how trials made them closer to God. I have a good job, but I have a single income family with 5 dependants. So we pray for alot. I am starting to get better with investments, which like I said I would never have learned if I had easy millions. Now I make a habit of helping other struggling investors, like a ministry. But the primary way to do good in investments is to fear the Lord. After I started seriously walking with God, probably 3 months ago, I have had nothing but success on the stock market. Before i was recommitted to Chtist, i had lost thoisands and thousands on the stock market. But now I dont have to study charts every day and stress. I have made 100% good trades in last month. There was an option spread i placed about 4 weeks ago that is up 52%. It was only 2 trades, but up considetably. Here is a passage that shows that God takes care of His people:
“Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the country. “Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your herds, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks. “Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. “Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out. “The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways. “The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the Lord your God is giving you. “The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, just as He has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in His ways. Then all peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord , and they shall be afraid of you. And the Lord will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the Lord swore to your fathers to give you. The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them. So you shall not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right or the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
Deuteronomy 28:3‭-‬14 NKJV

BUT IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW GOD, INSTEAD OF BLESSING YOU GET CURSES:

“But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: “Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country. “Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. “Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks. “Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. “The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. The Lord will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. The Lord will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed. “The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you. “You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually. The Lord will strike you in the knees and on the legs with severe boils which cannot be healed, and from the sole of your foot to the top of your head. “The Lord will bring you and the king whom you set over you to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods—wood and stone. And you shall become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword among all nations where the Lord will drive you. “You shall carry much seed out to the field but gather little in, for the locust shall consume it. You shall plant vineyards and tend them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil; for your olives shall drop off. You shall beget sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours; for they shall go into captivity. Locusts shall consume all your trees and the produce of your land. “The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail. “Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever.
Deuteronomy 28:15‭-‬33‭, ‬35‭-‬46 NKJV

So anyway, I hope this answers questions about prayer and why God has said no. Here is a good podcast for more info:

As a note, I only lightly skimmed your response. Reason... I was looking for the link to your claim. You know, the requested link demonstrating that peer review confirmed the regrowth of a limb, as asked for in post #293?

Maybe I miss-skimmed your response. If so, please direct me accordingly. If you did not provide it, then you are doing the very same thing you are accusing others of... Which is, not providing needed and necessary evidence.

Thanks.

createdtoworship · Apr 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
As a note, I only lightly skimmed your response. Reason... I was looking for the link to your claim. You know, the requested link demonstrating that peer review confirmed the regrowth of a limb, as asked for in post #293?

Maybe I miss-skimmed your response. If so, please direct me accordingly. If you did not provide it, then you are doing the very same thing you are accusing others of... Which is, not providing needed and necessary evidence.

Thanks.

I never said I had a peer review. I have evidence but it's not the proof your looking for. But the problem is that none of your own philosophical views have proof either. So your in quite a pickle if you don't adhere to at least a little faith. You know what I mean? But I wanted to update you on prayer. As I mentioned we are sort of financially strapped. We weRe two months behind in mortgage and they started foreclosure, and we had one month to pay both months. I prayed. Then 2 days later our refund came. I prayed for a 4,000 dollar refund as we usually get 3,000. We got over 4,000 2 days after they started foreclosure we paid our mortgage. We are not out of water yet, but getting there. Then I wanted to share that I have an autistic son who is 12. He gets picked up and driven to school every day by mom. Last few weeks he has been having bad days at school and on the way home when on the freeway, he starts kicking, my wife, pulling hair, and kicking the shifter into other geers. My wife said we needed to buy a 700 dollar, 5 point harness. So I prayed for the situaturn that we could find a cheaper alternative. I found the websites selling five point harnesses but they did not sell a child resistant buckle that would not let him out. So I emailed the company if there was a way to lock the harness. Dead end. I kept praying every day for a few days. Then I had a breakthrough. I found a key word on one of the sites I searched it was " buckle guard". So I searched Google and one popped up that had bad reviews. Then I searched amazon for best reviewed buckle guard and found not 1 but 2 buckle guards for 12 dollars. Now they said that they only fit one type of buckle. So I prayed again, I thanked God for finding the buckle guard and asked him to make it fit, not one but both our vehicles. I just checked a half hour ago, they fit both vehicles. God effectively saved us 1,400 dollars if we bought two 700 dollar five point harnesses with safety latch, like the school buses have. God provided two of them for 12 bucks. aND the nice thing about these is that you don't have to use them all the time and wear them out, you can pull them off and put in glove box or purse. A child seat with safety latch you would have to carry a key for the buckle and you would always have to use the safety feature. So this cheap alternative is actually better. God provided for our needs, saved our home and potentially saved the lives of my family members all in one week. Just through prayer. I am telling you, God is real. Read those verses I pOster earlier. God is so real, He blesses those who follow him, if I didn't follow him I would have probably lost my house or worse my family, because of some freak accident my son instigated on the freeway.

cvanwey · Apr 19, 2019

gradyll said:
I never said I had a peer review. I have evidence but it's not the proof your looking for.

In post #292, you stated:

'David went back to the doctor once a week for a year. The doctor took pictures, documented the whole event and submitted it to the Journal of the American Medical Association.'

Do you have this article, and what the AMA stated as a response?

ToddNotTodd · Apr 19, 2019

gradyll said:
how is it demonstrably false?

Because I can point to posts where I say a phrase like “And proof is for alcohol and math, not Philosophy.” like I did in post #33 of the thread “Tricks New Atheists and Theists Play (Part 1). This shows that I ask for evidence and not “proof”.

This is why your accusation that I need “proof “ is demonstrably false.

It’s like you’re not even trying anymore...

This is where your arguments always fail, you say some positive statement, I ask for proof, and then you can't give it.

Because, I’ve I’ve said ad nauseam, “proof” is not for arguments, I don’t see why I would attempt to provide proof.

However, please point to a positive statement I’ve made without evidence.

And yet you ask for not just evidence you ask for proof. I know this because when I provide evidence, you want more proof.

Either show in a particular post where I’ve asked you for “proof” instead of evidence or retract your statement. It seems very dishonest.

And you haven’t addressed your inaccurate portrayal of atheists in general in your previous post.

Dave Ellis · Apr 19, 2019

gradyll said:
All I know is it had power, and a light on the side but the remote would not work and the actual button did not turn on. However ,whatever was wrong with it emediately resolved itself in the same minute we stopped praying. What are the chances of that? A TV fixing itself right after you asking your diety to fix it? Who is to say God cant fix software issues and updates? That us a very limited view of God. Later my sons stomach was hurting, so we prayed for it. Same thing. Within 20 minutes he felt better. I suppose you have a natural explanation for that too? I wish you could live in my body and see God through my eyes. You definately would see things differently. When you are born again, you have eyes to see the spiritual. I don't expect you to believe, that is not the purpose. The point is that these words later will be used to testify against you in the judgement.

Sure dude

All I can say if that's your standard of evidence to prove a miracle, then you have an appallingly low standard of evidence.

There are plenty of other possibilities to explain your TV turning on one time, and not turning on another time. Furthermore, you have not verified that a miracle happened at all, and even if you did, you have no idea who caused it.

createdtoworship · Apr 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
In post #292, you stated:

'David went back to the doctor once a week for a year. The doctor took pictures, documented the whole event and submitted it to the Journal of the American Medical Association.'

Do you have this article, and what the AMA stated as a response?

It exists, and I could get it but it won't work. If your looking for evidence that for lack of a better word "proves" what I said, you will be disappointed. But like I said, you can't prove any thing you personally believe, you can't prove God does not exist. You can't prove evolution. You can't prove abiogenesis, you can't prove the stars created themselves in stellar nursuries, you can't prove why comets still exist for billions of years after the Big bang (if they are solid ICE they would melt in a few thousand years. The kuiper belt and the oort cloud are all theoretical that you can't prove. So, yeah. I am very ok with faith. As you have faith in all the above things. So yeah, we are both men of faith. Welcome to the party.

createdtoworship · Apr 19, 2019

Dave Ellis said:
Sure dude

All I can say if that's your standard of evidence to prove a miracle, then you have an appallingly low standard of evidence.

There are plenty of other possibilities to explain your TV turning on one time, and not turning on another time. Furthermore, you have not verified that a miracle happened at all, and even if you did, you have no idea who caused it.

but you can't prove anything either. You can't prove there is no God. You can't prove why or how the universe was created, or if evolution happened or even logically works. You can't prove any of that. But you believe it all. so I don't feel bad.

cvanwey · Apr 19, 2019

gradyll said:
It exists, and I could get it but it won't work. If your looking for evidence that for lack of a better word "proves" what I said, you will be disappointed. But like I said, you can't prove any thing you personally believe, you can't prove God does not exist. You can't prove evolution. You can't prove abiogenesis, you can't prove the stars created themselves in stellar nursuries, you can't prove why comets still exist for billions of years after the Big bang (if they are solid ICE they would melt in a few thousand years. The kuiper belt and the oort cloud are all theoretical that you can't prove. So, yeah. I am very ok with faith. As you have faith in all the above things. So yeah, we are both men of faith. Welcome to the party.

You are going all over the place. I'm asking if you have your asserted claim presented to the AMA? And do you have the AMA's response? Do you or don't you?

If you don't, then STOP accusing others of doing what you are now demonstrating to do.

ToddNotTodd · Apr 20, 2019

gradyll said:
but you can't prove anything either. You can't prove there is no God. You can't prove why or how the universe was created, or if evolution happened or even logically works. You can't prove any of that. But you believe it all. so I don't feel bad.

You should feel bad, since putting words in people’s mouths is a dishonest tactic.

gaara4158 · Apr 20, 2019

gradyll said:
but you can't prove anything either. You can't prove there is no God. You can't prove why or how the universe was created, or if evolution happened or even logically works. You can't prove any of that. But you believe it all. so I don't feel bad.

createdtoworship · Apr 20, 2019

cvanwey said:
You are going all over the place. I'm asking if you have your asserted claim presented to the AMA? And do you have the AMA's response? Do you or don't you?

If you don't, then STOP accusing others of doing what you are now demonstrating to do.

I already answered this question. I have evidence yes. But it is not the proof you are looking for. But I did note that you believe all of your own personal views by faith. So do you or do you not believe in faith? If you answer this question honestly, maybe I will post the source of the information.

createdtoworship · Apr 20, 2019

gaara4158 said:

So you admit it is hypocrisy when you cannot prove a single known fact, but yet require it of someoNE else? In order for your fallacy to work you must admit you are hypocritical. Secondly, I am fairly sure the fallacy is aimed at people who don't want to give proof and rather focus their aim at the other parties lack of proof. That is not the situation. This situation is that proof is impossible, yet you require it of other people. So therefore the fallacy breaks down, because of the fact you don't admit you cant give proof of your own, but yet condemn others for their lack of proof, hypocritical.

gaara4158 · Apr 20, 2019

gradyll said:
So you admit it is hypocrisy when you cannot prove a single known fact, but yet require it of someoNE else? In order for your fallacy to work you must admit you are hypocritical. Secondly, I am fairly sure the fallacy is aimed at people who don't want to give proof and rather focus their aim at the other parties lack of proof. That is not the situation. This situation is that proof is impossible, yet you require it of other people. So therefore the fallacy breaks down, because of the fact you don't admit you cant give proof of your own, but yet condemn others for their lack of proof, hypocritical.

Really? When did I do that?

createdtoworship · Apr 20, 2019

gaara4158 said:
Really? When did I do that?

One need only to look up your post history. The evidence is in the threads. You make statements in this thread that there exists a hypothetical multiverse even though no one has actually seen it or has any evidence of it. Then you make a claim that the multiverse is exempt from space time, and has no causation. But you refuse to provide evidence. Then you criticize me in the very next sentence saying I don't have proof of God. Again, nothing is provable. Is there evidence for God? Yes. Read the OP. But it is not proof. And you point that out repeatedly, but while the same time pushing theories about a multiverse that no on has seen and a multiverse that has intelligence and is exempt from space time. In fact your multiverse sound just like my version of God. Outside of time domain, exempt from space time, created the universe, intelligent. The thing is I admit I believe in faith you you claim to be against faith. It's just hypocritical and dishonest.

cvanwey · Apr 20, 2019

gradyll said:
I already answered this question. I have evidence yes. But it is not the proof you are looking for. But I did note that you believe all of your own personal views by faith. So do you or do you not believe in faith? If you answer this question honestly, maybe I will post the source of the information.

Why do you insist on poisoning the well? How do you know what I'm 'looking for'? I asked if you had a link to the AMA article, and the response given by the AMA. That's it. If you do, please provide it, and stop the games. You mentioned it, not me. As stated, you are the one using 'prayer' as a form of evidence for the existence of God. I informed you if someone claimed they prayed for an amputated limb to be restored, and demonstrated as such, I would be interested to see as such.

I apply faith, only in place of evidence, to reach any conclusion of a belief. If I choose to believe something, the amount of faith associated to support such a belief, is in direct relation to the opposing weight of the evidence presented. As Bertrand Russell stated, 'no one speaks of faith, when addressing/acknowledging that 2 plus 2 equals four, or that the earth is a sphere.'

createdtoworship · Apr 20, 2019

cvanwey said:
As Bertrand Russell stated, 'no one speaks of faith, when addressing/acknowledging that 2 plus 2 equals four, or that the earth is a sphere.'

Math can be proven, it's the only thing that can, but your other positive statement cannot be. can you prove the earth is a sphere? Have you personally done tests to assure that it is circular, not relying on any other test done by someone else, and not relying on NASA photo's that can be altered or photo shopped? I am not asking for evidence, I know evidence exists that the earth is spherical. I actually believe it's spherical myself (so please no references to how I am a flat earther), I am not. But I am asking if you have solid proof. there are many tests to assure that the earth is a sphere, I have seen many. But most if not all of them are done by third parties. Have you personally done tests to verify if the earth is spherical, or have you personally traveled to space to take pictures of the earth? Or have you personally traveled one direction for 25 or so hours on an air plane and arrived at your starting point. Have you personally done any of this? If not you believe by faith in someone elses test, that can be fabricated and altered. You have faith that NASA photos are not altered and that air plane travel in one direction arrives at the point of takeoff. You believe all this in faith. You are not much different that a Christian who believes in God by faith. Do you at least admit that?

cvanwey · Apr 20, 2019

gradyll said:
can you prove the earth is a sphere? Have you personally done tests to assure that it is circular, not relying on any other test done by someone else, and not relying on nasa photo's that can be altered or photo shopped? I am not asking foe evidence, I know evidence exists that the earth is spherical. I actually believe it's spherical myself. But I am asking if you have solid proof. Have you personally done tests to verify if the earth is spherical, or have you personally travelled to space to take pictures of the earth. Or have you personally travelled on direction for 25 or so hours on an air plane and arived at your starting point. Have you personally done any of this? If not you believe by faith in someone elses test, that can be fabricated and altered. You have faith that nasa photos are not altered and that air plane travel in one direction arrives at the point of takeoff. You believe all this in faith. You are not much different that a Christian who believes in God by faith. Do you at least admit that?

Are you going to provide the link to the AMA or not? Are you also going to provide the posted response, issued by the AMA, whom received such documentation, or not? I'm tired of jumping through hoops, and playing along with your shenanigans. I've asked three times now. Do you not have them?

gaara4158 · Apr 21, 2019

gradyll said:
One need only to look up your post history. The evidence is in the threads. You make statements in this thread that there exists a hypothetical multiverse even though no one has actually seen it or has any evidence of it. Then you make a claim that the multiverse is exempt from space time, and has no causation. But you refuse to provide evidence. Then you criticize me in the very next sentence saying I don't have proof of God. Again, nothing is provable. Is there evidence for God? Yes. Read the OP. But it is not proof. And you point that out repeatedly, but while the same time pushing theories about a multiverse that no on has seen and a multiverse that has intelligence and is exempt from space time. In fact your multiverse sound just like my version of God. Outside of time domain, exempt from space time, created the universe, intelligent. The thing is I admit I believe in faith you you claim to be against faith. It's just hypocritical and dishonest.

If it’s such a simple matter of post history, show me the link where I asked not for evidence, but proof. Right now I think you’re lying.

But it doesn’t even matter if I did that or not. Argument from hypocrisy is a logical fallacy, and you’re committing it.

It doesn’t matter if anyone has evidence for any alternative explanation for the universe. Alternatives were only brought up in response to your false dichotomy fallacy. You’re making an argument for the existence of God, so you’re the one who needs to provide evidence.

So just in this tiny pocket of discussion you’re managing to squeeze in the false dichotomy fallacy, the tu quoque fallacy, and blatant dishonesty. Is this really the example you want to set?

Argument for God's existence.

Iconoclast

In the grip of grace

Well-Known Member

In the grip of grace

Well-Known Member

Iconoclast

Contributor

In the grip of grace

In the grip of grace

Well-Known Member

Iconoclast

Gen Alpha Dad

In the grip of grace

In the grip of grace

Gen Alpha Dad

In the grip of grace

Well-Known Member

In the grip of grace

Well-Known Member

Gen Alpha Dad

Similar threads