Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

BNR32FAN

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Simple, then you get to gloat over their imperfections while pretending you are a s pure as the driven snow, and maybe get some cash if possible from the guilt trip for your 'holy' church? :)

I have no idea what your talking about. My post is pertaining to the doctrine of predestination.
 
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Swan7

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You said I didn't answer your post.

Hello, I read your post and Toro's, and it seems to me that you are both talking about different things; which is why he stated in one of his posts saying that he won't bother with anyone who doesn't read his post. I think you just misunderstood what he was talking about, is all.

He was only saying that we, as Christians, need to be careful of what we say and don't say as ever word we speak and do not speak will be held accountable: Matthew 12:35-37

IOW, we can't just assume everyone is walking in the Spirit. We have to test every spirit and if they do not have the Spirit in them, we have to speak as Jesus did to those that didn't understand Spiritual things. That's all he was getting at, and I also had to learn that and allow God to speak through me to others so that they will understand the words He gives us for them. In the end, we must yield to God Almighty as He is the One Who sees all and is in all.

I hope that cleared up some things, I also see where you were coming from, Biblically speaking. :yellowheart:
 
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1stcenturylady

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Hello, I read your post and Toro's, and it seems to me that you are both talking about different things; which is why he stated in one of his posts saying that he won't bother with anyone who doesn't read his post. I think you just misunderstood what he was talking about, is all.

He was only saying that we, as Christians, need to be careful of what we say and don't say as ever word we speak and do not speak will be held accountable: Matthew 12:35-37

IOW, we can't just assume everyone is walking in the Spirit. We have to test every spirit and if they do not have the Spirit in them, we have to speak as Jesus did to those that didn't understand Spiritual things. That's all he was getting at, and I also had to learn that and allow God to speak through me to others so that they will understand the words He gives us for them. In the end, we must yield to God Almighty as He is the One Who sees all and is in all.

I hope that cleared up some things, I also see where you were coming from, Biblically speaking. :yellowheart:

That is not what I was responding to. He was warning that if someone commits one sin, not to say they are not saved. I explained what sins unto death are, and sins not unto death. If you would like to tell me your beliefs I can have this discussion with you too.
 
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dad

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I have no idea what your talking about. My post is pertaining to the doctrine of predestination.
So if people are predestined to be hellbound or sinless saints, the people who think they are in the exclusive sinless holy saints club can take advantage of people in a few ways. One, maybe keeping them donating or working for their sinless holy church, and maybe thinking they are better than the other poor saved sinners. Guess it was you that missed to point.
 
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JLB777

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His commandments are to believe in Him and love each other and God basically. The law of love. Now if someone is not loving the brethren we can tell they really are not of God. (at least not saved yet). 1 John was about this love.


The 10 Commandments are about love.


Loving God and loving our neighbor.


If we worship other gods, is that loving God with all our heart?


If we murder our brother is that loving him.

If we steal from or brother, or commit adultery with his wife, is that loving home?


The 10 commandments are about loving God and loving our neighbor.



Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10




JLB
 
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dad

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The 10 Commandments are about love.
If we had the perfect love of God in us we would keep them. Too bad no one but Jesus ever has though.
  1. "We are not under the law" (Rom. 6:14; Gal. 5:18).
  2. We are dead to the law (Rom. 7:4).
  3. We are delivered from the law (Rom. 7:6).
  4. Christ is the end of the law (Rom. 10:4).
  5. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ .... we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24, 25).
  6. "The law" has been abolished (Eph. 2:15).
You do realize that if any of the commandments are broken you broke them all?

Ga 2:16 -Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Those of you that preach our retaining salvation is only justified by works are wrong. Works give us rewards in heaven, they never justify us being there!


Loving God and loving our neighbor.


If we worship other gods, is that loving God with all our heart?


If we murder our brother is that loving him.

If we steal from or brother, or commit adultery with his wife, is that loving home?


The 10 commandments are about loving God and loving our neighbor.

Without God in us we could not keep them, this is true. If we had His perfect love we could keep them...true. But keeping Jesus commandments does not mean keeping the 10 commandments. It means if we keep His law of love and believe in Him, that we are not bound by the law.


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10
Right, and perfect love casts out fear also. Does this mean if a believer at some time has a bit of fear that he loses salvation? Or does it mean that we simply are not yet perfect in this life? If we love God and the brethren then this is evidence we have God in us, and visa verso. That does not mean that if a believer is not perfect in love yet, that he loses salvation. By loving God and believers, and accepting Christ we are fulfilling His commandments.
 
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1stcenturylady

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If we had the perfect love of God in us we would keep them. Too bad no one but Jesus ever has though.

Don't you know that is why Jesus came? He came to take away our sin, not just cover it up like in the Old Testament sacrifices. He is perfect. He told us to be perfect, as His Father in heaven in perfect. That is the difference between the Law and the Spirit. The law couldn't make us perfect, because of the sin in our nature. But the Spirit kills the old carnal nature and makes us born again of the Spirit of Christ so we will no longer be slaves to sin.

I'm just afraid you have been swallowing hook line and sinker all the human reasoning and negative unbelief and false teachings so long you don't understand the scriptures when you read them. Try reading John 8:34-36; Romans 8:1-9; John 6; 1 John 3. Read them a few times as ask God what they mean, first erasing everything you've ever been spoon fed.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So if people are predestined to be hellbound or sinless saints, the people who think they are in the exclusive sinless holy saints club can take advantage of people in a few ways. One, maybe keeping them donating or working for their sinless holy church, and maybe thinking they are better than the other poor saved sinners. Guess it was you that missed to point.

I think that is possible but I don’t think that is a very common approach.
 
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Swan7

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That is not what I was responding to. He was warning that if someone commits one sin, not to say they are not saved. I explained what sins unto death are, and sins not unto death. If you would like to tell me your beliefs I can have this discussion with you too.

That may not be what you were responding to, but the thing is he knows what sin is, but what you are talking about is different than his original post. That's all I'm saying. It's like watching 2 different conversations that aren't matching up with the context of what is being said.

My beliefs are from the Bible and what God Himself has revealed to me, as He does with His saints individually - as well with the body of Christ.

May God bless you, sister :yellowheart:
 
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dad

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Don't you know that is why Jesus came? He came to take away our sin, not just cover it up like in the Old Testament sacrifices. He is perfect. He told us to be perfect, as His Father in heaven in perfect. That is the difference between the Law and the Spirit. The law couldn't make us perfect, because of the sin in our nature. But the Spirit kills the old carnal nature and makes us born again of the Spirit of Christ so we will no longer be slaves to sin.

I'm just afraid you have been swallowing hook line and sinker all the human reasoning and negative unbelief and false teachings so long you don't understand the scriptures when you read them. Try reading John 8:34-36; Romans 8:1-9; John 6; 1 John 3. Read them a few times as ask God what they mean, first erasing everything you've ever been spoon fed.
The article below seems to destroy the idea we are to be perfect after being saved.

" No, Christians are not under the Law. To be under the Law means that a person is under the power and authority of the Law to judge and condemn anyone who breaks the Law. Take a look at these verses that talk about being under the Law.

  • Rom. 2:12, "For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law," (ἐν νόμῳ, en nomo, literally 'in law').
  • Gal. 3:23, "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed," (ὑπὸ νόμον, hupo nomon, literally 'under law').
  • Gal. 4:5, "in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons," (ὑπὸ νόμον, hupo nomon, literally 'under law').
As you can see, to be under the Law means you will be judged by the Law. In the Old Testament Law found in Deuteronomy 27:26 it says, "‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’" So, to be under the Law means you have to keep it all. In Galatians 3:10 Paul said, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'” That is what it means to be under the Law.

But, as I said above, Christians are not under the Law. In other words, Christians are not obligated to keep the Law so as to be saved from God's righteous judgment so they don't go to hell.

  • Rom. 6:14, "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace."
  • Gal. 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."
Christians are freed from having to please God and be saved by keeping the Law of God. We are not under the Law. We are not under its authority. It has no power over us.

Why are Christians not under the Law?
Christians are not under the Law because they have died to the Law. They have died with Christ, and those who have died are not bound by the Law.

  • "for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation," (Rom. 4:15).
  • "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin," (Rom. 6:6).
  • "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him," (Rom. 6:8).
  • "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God," (Rom. 7:4).
  • "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter," (Rom. 7:6).
So, Christians have died with Christ. They are identified with Christ so closely that it can be said that when Christ died, they died with Him. Since Christians have died with Him, they are no longer under the Law because he who has died is freed from the Law (Rom. 7:6). That is why Christians are not obligated to keep the Law of God in order to be saved from God's righteous judgment. Christians are saved from that requirement and penalty. "

Are Christians under the Law? | CARM.org

By the way, how would we forgive one another if people did not sin? What would be to forgive if we were the sinless perfect law keeping saints you seem to think we must be!?
 
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pasifika

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But the question still remains why would this message be important to those who are chosen by God if they cannot fail to abide and why would it be important to those not chosen by God if they are incapable of abiding regardless of their efforts? Why give a command if they are powerless to to obey or disobey? This message wouldn’t be beneficial to anyone.

If the 11 faithful apostles are chosen by God why would Jesus say to them

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is a strong indication that it is possible for them to fail to abide in Him. Notice He gives no assurance that they will automatically abide in Him because they are chosen by God.
Hello, to answer your question..we must understand that what is Jesus is teaching to His Apostles is totally new way of teaching in contrast to the way the teacher of the law, priest etc taught .
So, for them in order to believe Jesus and His message of salvation they must understand spiritual truth and the way of salvation..this is called FAITH...
Knowing Christ is the BEGINNING OF THEIR FAITH...or OUR FAITH...

Romans 10:17.." Faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard (understood ) by the message about Christ...

They cannot believe the message unless they understand and they cannot understand unless they been taught...

So Parables is the way of teaching them spiritual realities using things they can see as illustration eg, bread (symbolise his body), His blood (symbolise His Spirit ), vine and branch (our relationship/ connection with him) etc...

So a message must be delivered to the hearers as it is, otherwise the message has no truth in it if only deliver half or incomplete message ..Who decides how the message is manifested or understood within the heart of every individual is Totally God's work...as Paul said in 1Corinthians 3:6-7 "..I planted the seed, Apollos watered it but GOD HAS BEEN MAKING IT GROW. verse 7..So neither the one who plants nor the one who watered is anything but Only God who makes Things GROW....
So, is our faith...

So, whether the message is benefit to one group and not the other is up to God, but the message must deliver as it to both sinners and righteous...

As 2 Corinthians 2:15 puts it "...For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are SAVED and those who are PERISHING....
 
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pasifika

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Just because someone received the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean they are automatically saved. The Spirit guides us but we must be willing to adhere to His guidance otherwise we are no better than those who do not have the Holy Spirit.

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
‭‭HEBREWS‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Hello, anyone can have gift of the Holy Spirit ie, knowedge, Spirit of prophesy, speaking in tongue etc but if All these gifts cannot manifested in anyone's heart in the Spirit of Christ....is no use at all..

The Holy Spirit is the One that teaches you and me about Christ hence where faith originated from...so what has been taught must be understood within our HEART in order for us to BELIEVE in Him...
So our belief must express by our actions or works this called faith...so as our understanding grew so is our faith....

we can have knowledge, but does not suppopted by our works/actions... shows Christ is not fully formed within our heart...This is the Spirit that enable Us to do good works (work of faith ).... this is the Spirit that the Father promised..that all who believe in Him will recieved John 7:39..this is the Spirit that complete our adoption as children of God..Galatians 4:5-6...Also this is the Spirit where the Father dwell in Us by His Spirit...This is the seed of the fruit of our life for God.
This is All the work of God From whom everything came into being and for whom we live. 1Corinthians 8:6

So, for those in Hebrew 6:4-6, are those who have the gift of the Holy Spirit but those gifts did not manifested in them(heart) in Christ (Spirit )...

This can be illustrate by the two lands who received same rain and produces different crops in chapter 6 verse 7 of Hebrew;

You see in verse 7....where the land drink water who falls on them and produces a crop useful to those who farmed it, and land drink from same rain but produces thorns and thistles (bad crops ) which not useful and in danger of cursed and later burned...
 
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1stcenturylady

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The article below seems to destroy the idea we are to be perfect after being saved.

" No, Christians are not under the Law. To be under the Law means that a person is under the power and authority of the Law to judge and condemn anyone who breaks the Law. Take a look at these verses that talk about being under the Law.

  • Rom. 2:12, "For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law," (ἐν νόμῳ, en nomo, literally 'in law').
  • Gal. 3:23, "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed," (ὑπὸ νόμον, hupo nomon, literally 'under law').
  • Gal. 4:5, "in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons," (ὑπὸ νόμον, hupo nomon, literally 'under law').
As you can see, to be under the Law means you will be judged by the Law. In the Old Testament Law found in Deuteronomy 27:26 it says, "‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’" So, to be under the Law means you have to keep it all. In Galatians 3:10 Paul said, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.'” That is what it means to be under the Law.

But, as I said above, Christians are not under the Law. In other words, Christians are not obligated to keep the Law so as to be saved from God's righteous judgment so they don't go to hell.

  • Rom. 6:14, "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace."
  • Gal. 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law."
Christians are freed from having to please God and be saved by keeping the Law of God. We are not under the Law. We are not under its authority. It has no power over us.

Why are Christians not under the Law?
Christians are not under the Law because they have died to the Law. They have died with Christ, and those who have died are not bound by the Law.

  • "for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation," (Rom. 4:15).
  • "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin," (Rom. 6:6).
  • "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him," (Rom. 6:8).
  • "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God," (Rom. 7:4).
  • "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter," (Rom. 7:6).
So, Christians have died with Christ. They are identified with Christ so closely that it can be said that when Christ died, they died with Him. Since Christians have died with Him, they are no longer under the Law because he who has died is freed from the Law (Rom. 7:6). That is why Christians are not obligated to keep the Law of God in order to be saved from God's righteous judgment. Christians are saved from that requirement and penalty. "

Are Christians under the Law? | CARM.org

By the way, how would we forgive one another if people did not sin? What would be to forgive if we were the sinless perfect law keeping saints you seem to think we must be!?

It seems you believe that because we are not under the law we can murder, commit adultery, steal, lie and believe that Christ took our penalty, so we are free to do what we want. Am I reading you right? Is that what you believe?

I hope that is not what you believe, because it is false, though Martin Luther seemed to believe that in his "Sin boldly" letter. That doctrine may have started with him.
 
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dad

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He is able to empower you to practice righteousness.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7





JLB
Righteousness involves mistakes also...unlike self righteousness.
 
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JLB777

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Righteousness involves mistakes also...unlike self righteousness.


Could you share the scripture that says righteousness involves mistakes?

Basically your saying righteousness involves sin.

I don’t agree.


Righteousness involves obedience.




JLB
 
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dad

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Could you share the scripture that says righteousness involves mistakes?

Basically your saying righteousness involves sin.

I don’t agree.


Righteousness involves obedience.




JLB
In heaven we are clothed with white linen, but here linen gets dirty. Obviously Jesus said believers will commit offenses against each other. Often. How else would we need to forgive if brethren were sinless!? That is ridiculous.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


 
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