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Huh?So when you CAN'T answer you tell just say you did. There is no Scripture that states that regeneration proceeds faith ... not one.
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Huh?So when you CAN'T answer you tell just say you did. There is no Scripture that states that regeneration proceeds faith ... not one.
No sir, that is not the truth.When your traditions are so strong, that you can be staring at the words, and don't see it. This is what lenses of traditions do to Scripture. I provided 1 John 5:1 to which you replied with ad hominem.
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. Regeneration precedes faith. Agreed? Good.
Is it your normal fashion to ask a question, then proceed to answer your own question, then proceed to acknowledge your own answer?
Regeneration precedes faith. Agreed?
Good
Would you please define the "natural" man?
I asked a question that you didn’t answer. And still haven’t.Do you know the difference between an interrogative and declarative sentence, or in this case a imperative sentence?
Using the EXACT words you did ... No, I disagree.A natural man is a human being in which God the Holy Spirit does not dwell. A spiritual man is a human being in which God the Holy Spirit does dwell.
Do you agree or disagree? If not I would like for you to extend the same courtesy of answering the question, provided you have time and energy.
Now just in case you don't agree with my definition of "natural" ... here are some verses for you to consider ...A natural man is a human being in which God the Holy Spirit does not dwell. A spiritual man is a human being in which God the Holy Spirit does dwell.
Do you agree or disagree? If not I would like for you to extend the same courtesy of answering the question, provided you have time and energy.
Using the EXACT words you did ... No, I disagree.
In 1 Corinthians 2:14 we read ...
2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians
The words "natural man" are rendered from the Greek ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος.
The Greek ψυχικός relates to that which is physical and relies on breath to live ... hence, it is an adjective describing the physical man. Now both of us are natural men, relying on air to breath, to stay physically alive.
How can a man be in the Spirit if he is still a sinner and unregenerated?When man responds, is he in the flesh or the Spirit?
Please explain if no one is predestinedAnd I
asked ... what question?
Now you can play the look yourself game; or you can simply ask your question.
He cannot.How can a man be in the Spirit if he is still a sinner and unregenerated?
Good questions. Thanks for bringing them up.There are problems with all of this.
1) Paul is addressing believers that are living sin filled lives.
2) Paul literally calls them "carnal".
3). Roman's 8 points out the fact that despite the carnal behavior of things that happen in chapter 7, the believer can be assured he is not under condemnation. (OSAS)
Calvinism uses the terms unregenerate, and regenerated, but Scripture does not.
The discussion has been as to whether regeneration proceeds faith .... along with the suggestion that it is both logical, and theological. I disagree.
The word "regeneration" is rendered from the Greek παλιγγενεσία, meaning a rebirth.
Now please think with me for a moment: If the soul (or if as you say the spirit ... howbeit incorrect), of the lost is dead, and needs to be made alive; that would mean that that the soul that died because of sin; is now made whole. Salvation has been delivered.
Now if at the point of regeneration the soul is alive (which it is), what purpose would faith serve in the salvation process? It makes faith moot!
Logically, if regeneration is first, salvation is first, because salvation and regeneration are one in the same. What purpose then is there of faith, if salvation has already occurred?
Faith MUST proceed regeneration, or it serves no purpose.
What or who causes one sinner to have faith and another to not have faith?
Where does contentment come from? Some have it and some don't.
A person chooses what to believe. Those who seek truth will find it. The Bible says so. Acts 17:27 - God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
Faith comes from the heart.
Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
The Calvinist view that God causes the elect to believe by regenerating them so they can believe is not found anywhere in Scripture. As much as Calvinists wish otherwise.
I don't think that the Corinthians en-masse are sinful. If we read the beginning of 1 Corinthians, Paul does not describe them that way. But I agree that there were quite a number of shortcomings that Paul had to address with them. The fact that Paul had received a letter from a group of concerned believers in that church (which is now lost), shows that not all were going astray. The main fault is that the leaders were allowing someone in their midst to continue in incest and not disciplining that person. Other faults were disrespecting the Lord's Supper, party spirit, and doubts as to the resurrection of Christ, among others.Good questions. Thanks for bringing them up.
Salvation is multifaceted. Scripture uses “saved” in mostly a generic sense. But there are also specific descriptions that can also be rendered as saved, or used interchangeably. Regenerate, justified, sanctified, redeemed, etc.
So in the Reformed Theology viewpoint, which can be supported with scripture, a man who is natural, dead, blind, etc., will not or cannot respond to the gospel because there’s nothing in him that has a desire to do so. He has a heart of stone.
Regeneration need to come first so that the man has that desire to respond. That’s why he goes from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh. With the new heart (new birth) he will believe. And with that exercise of faith, he is justified.
That’s so as life follows birth in nature, faith follows the new birth. A baby doesn’t need to be taught to breath. It just does so naturally.
Now, let me as you a question. If faith is what makes us righteous, what’s the point of regeneration if salvation has already occurred? I’m really only asking the question to make a point.
What? Choosing to believe in Christ causes the person to be born again and therefore regenerated by the Spirit. The choice to believe comes first, then the regeneration. Even a trained chimpanzee would interpret that verse that way!No sir, that is not the truth.
You said ...
I then said ...
You first presented 1 John 5:1. Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
Then you asked ...
Then you answered ...
Asking you if that was your normal fashion wasn't Ad hominem ... it was an honest question. Did you not answer your own question?
I’m not quite sure how that addresses my post.I don't think that the Corinthians en-masse are sinful. If we read the beginning of 1 Corinthians, Paul does not describe them that way. But I agree that there were quite a number of shortcomings that Paul had to address with them. The fact that Paul had received a letter from a group of concerned believers in that church (which is now lost), shows that not all were going astray. The main fault is that the leaders were allowing someone in their midst to continue in incest and not disciplining that person. Other faults were disrespecting the Lord's Supper, party spirit, and doubts as to the resurrection of Christ, among others.
I don't believe Dr MacArthur who says that the Corinthian church was full of demons and paganism. I think he is prejudiced and using that idea to support his view that the current Charismatic church is full of falsehood, paganism and demons. Both churches had and have their faults and extremes, but the core of both is solidly in the Spirit.
I must have clicked on the wrong post! Senior moment!I don't think that the Corinthians en-masse are sinful. If we read the beginning of 1 Corinthians, Paul does not describe them that way. But I agree that there were quite a number of shortcomings that Paul had to address with them. The fact that Paul had received a letter from a group of concerned believers in that church (which is now lost), shows that not all were going astray. The main fault is that the leaders were allowing someone in their midst to continue in incest and not disciplining that person. Other faults were disrespecting the Lord's Supper, party spirit, and doubts as to the resurrection of Christ, among others.
I don't believe Dr MacArthur who says that the Corinthian church was full of demons and paganism. I think he is prejudiced and using that idea to support his view that the current Charismatic church is full of falsehood, paganism and demons. Both churches had and have their faults and extremes, but the core of both is solidly in the Spirit.