There will be different versions of Mueller report for different people...

com7fy8

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"collusion" is not considered a criminal offense
But it seems ones are saying that it is a crime against international law, for one country to interfere with another country's elections. So, if this is true and in case someone did collude with what is an international crime, then wouldn't such a colluder be committing an international crime??
 
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jgarden

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So Mueller's report says Trump is neck deep in collusion with the Russians but Barr is publicly lying about it?
For the Attorney General to assert that this President is absolved from "collusion" is totally misleading, as the head of the Department of Justice he should be well aware that "collusion," is not considered a criminal offense and therefore the Mueller Investigation would have no legal grounds to make that accusation!
 
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jgarden

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So Mueller's report says Trump is neck deep in collusion with the Russians but Barr is publicly lying about it?
For the Attorney General to absolve this President of "collusion" is totally misleading, as the head of the Department of Justice he should be well aware that "collusion" is not considered a criminal offense and therefore the Mueller Investigation has no legal grounds to make that accusation!
 
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com7fy8

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There was definitely collusion but it doesn't seem to have risen to the point of criminal conspiracy.
In case another country did things to help Donald to win . . . he lost the popular vote. So, what if Russia had not interfered? Would Donald have been sure to lose, in such a case? I have not heard either a Republican or a Democrat bring this up.

But I heard that Russia was found to have tried to use misinformation to mess up the democratic process. But the one saying this did not specify if the effort helped one candidate or the other. Going only by what he said, I would have to consider it possible that he means the Russians were only doing a general mess-things-up campaign.

Again > it was not specified if the misinformation was more against one candidate, than against another, and who it could have helped, if anyone.

In any case, I trust God for how things turn out. So, I think we are wise not to boast people to be the ones really in control.
 
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HTacianas

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For the Attorney General to absolve this President of "collusion" is totally misleading, as the head of the Department of Justice he should be well aware that "collusion" is not considered a criminal offense and that the Mueller Investigation was never tasked with making that case!

Mueller's commission specifically stated that he was to investigate collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians. Now, the investigation has concluded and there is no evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians. The thing is over. It is dead. There is no sense in looking for guilt anymore.

Trump has been exonerated. The accusations were false. QED.
 
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HTacianas

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I've definitely noticed the wording Barr used. He seems to be playing to the White House instead of legalese. Collusion isn't the term which prosecutors use. Conspiracy is.

There was definitely collusion but it doesn't seem to have risen to the point of criminal conspiracy.

There is no evidence of collusion. The matter is over.
 
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jgarden

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But it seems ones are saying that it is a crime against international law, for one country to interfere with another country's elections. So, if this is true and in case someone did collude with what is an international crime, then wouldn't such a colluder be committing an international crime??
Mueller was investigating for evidence of "conspiracy," not "collision," and technically the Trump Campaign did not enter into a formal agreement with the Russian government, although it was more than willing to exploit the political damage created by the linking of DNC emails - which it knew had been illegally hacked!

The Mueller Report records that 16 members of the Trump Campaign "colluded" with the Russians - it speaks volumes as to the integrity and patriotism of those individuals with which this President chose to surround himself when not one of them volunteered to report these dubious contacts to the FBI!
 
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com7fy8

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The Mueller Report records that 16 members of the Trump Campaign "colluded" with the Russians
And my question is that in case ones did get Russia's help to get Donald elected . . . what would have happened if Russia had not helped him? I keep noticing how this does not come up.
 
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The Barbarian

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This seems to fit with someone saying there was not enough to indict Donald, but also they did not have enough to clear him.

Since Mueller discovered that Trump repeatedly tried to obstruct the investigation, but failed because his underlings refused to carry out his orders, each of those is a crime.

The special counsel ultimately suggested that, taken together, Trump’s actions amounted to an abuse of the presidency. “The incidents were often carried out through one-on-one meetings in which the president sought to use his official power outside of usual channels,” he wrote. “These actions ranged from efforts to remove the special counsel and to reverse the effect of the attorney general’s recusal; to the attempted use of official power to limit the scope of the investigation; to direct and indirect contact with witnesses with the potential to influence their testimony. Viewing these acts collectively can help to illuminate their significance.”

What’s more, Mueller even briefly addressed the prospect of charging a defendant with attempted obstruction of justice. “Under general principles of attempt law, a person is guilty of an attempt when he has the intent to commit a substantive offense and takes an overt act that constitutes a substantial step towards that goal,” Mueller explains in a two-paragraph analysis. He also quotes a recent ruling by the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals holding that prosecutors “need not prove that the due administration of justice was actually obstructed or impeded” when prosecution attempts to obstruct justice.
How to Get Away With Obstruction of Justice

If the Eleventh Court of Appeals is not overturned, Trump is a felon.

 
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The Barbarian

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And my question is that in case ones did get Russia's help to get Donald elected . . . what would have happened if Russia had not helped him? I keep noticing how this does not come up.

Since his victory in key states was very, very small, there's a good chance that Russian officials are correct in their belief that they successfully rigged the election for Trump.
 
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jgarden

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Mueller's commission specifically stated that he was to investigate collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians. Now, the investigation has concluded and there is no evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians. The thing is over. It is dead. There is no sense in looking for guilt anymore.

Trump has been exonerated. The accusations were false. QED.
16 members od the Trump Campaign had contacts with the FBI, none of whom saw it as their patriotic duty as an American citizen to report them to the FBI - in fact several of the President's men "lied" to the FBI, the Mueller Investigation and /or congressional committees!

If "collusion" or "lying to the American pubic" were criminal offenses, this President and most of the President's men and women would have been charged!
 
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Yarddog

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In case another country did things to help Donald to win . . . he lost the popular vote. So, what if Russia had not interfered? Would Donald have been sure to lose, in such a case? I have not heard either a Republican or a Democrat bring this up.

But I heard that Russia was found to have tried to use misinformation to mess up the democratic process. But the one saying this did not specify if the effort helped one candidate or the other. Going only by what he said, I would have to consider it possible that he means the Russians were only doing a general mess-things-up campaign.

Again > it was not specified if the misinformation was more against one candidate, than against another, and who it could have helped, if anyone.

In any case, I trust God for how things turn out. So, I think we are wise not to boast people to be the ones really in control.
How much did the release help change the swing vote? That is the most likely reason Trump surged in the last few weeks of the election.

Clinton was about in the same situation as Trump is their investigations. Both broke rules but they did not rise to being prosecutable, but hers was during an election cycle.
 
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Yarddog

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There is no evidence of collusion. The matter is over.
There is tons of evidence for collusion but collusion isn't necessarily a crime. Trump,calling for Russia to get Clinton's emails is collusion. Donald Jrmeeting Russians to get dirt on Clinton is collusion but Mueller didn't find evidence that they rose to criminal conspiracy.
 
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jgarden

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There is no evidence of collusion. The matter is over.
Conspiracy
An agreement between two or more persons to engage jointly in an unlawful or criminal act, or an act that is innocent in itself but becomes unlawful when done by the combination of actors.

Conspiracy is governed by statute in federal courts and most state courts. Before its Codification in state and federal statutes, the crime of conspiracy was simply an agreement to engage in an unlawful act with the intent to carry out the act. Federal statutes, and many state statutes, now require not only agreement and intent but also the commission of an Overt Act in furtherance of the agreement.

- Conspiracy is a crime separate from the criminal act for which it is developed ...

- ... It differs from solicitation in that conspiracy requires an agreement between two or more persons, whereas solicitation can be committed by one person alone.

The law seeks to punish conspiracy as a substantive crime separate from the intended crime because when two or more persons agree to commit a crime, the potential for criminal activity increases, and as a result, the danger to the public increases.

conspiracy
**************************************************************
"Collusion" is not a criminal offense, but "conspiracy" is - although 16 members of the Trump Campaign had contacts with Russians, none of which as American citizens felt compelled to reported to the FBI, the Mueller Campaign was unable to confirm that this President, and his surrogates, entered into a formal agreement and committed the overt act of illegally hacking the DNC emails!
 
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HTacianas

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16 members od the Trump Campaign had contacts with the FBI, none of whom saw it as their patriotic duty as an American citizen to report them to the FBI - in fact several of the President's men "lied" to the FBI, the Mueller Investigation and /or congressional committees!

If "collusion" or "lying to the American pubic" were criminal offenses, this President and most of the President's men and women would have been charged!

Wow. We should have someone investigate those allegations.
 
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HTacianas

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Conspiracy
An agreement between two or more persons to engage jointly in an unlawful or criminal act, or an act that is innocent in itself but becomes unlawful when done by the combination of actors.

Conspiracy is governed by statute in federal courts and most state courts. Before its Codification in state and federal statutes, the crime of conspiracy was simply an agreement to engage in an unlawful act with the intent to carry out the act. Federal statutes, and many state statutes, now require not only agreement and intent but also the commission of an Overt Act in furtherance of the agreement.

- Conspiracy is a crime separate from the criminal act for which it is developed ...

- ... It differs from solicitation in that conspiracy requires an agreement between two or more persons, whereas solicitation can be committed by one person alone.

The law seeks to punish conspiracy as a substantive crime separate from the intended crime because when two or more persons agree to commit a crime, the potential for criminal activity increases, and as a result, the danger to the public increases.

conspiracy
**************************************************************
"Collusion" is not a criminal offense, but "conspiracy" is - although 16 members of the Trump Campaign had contacts with Russians, none of which were ever reported to the FBI, the Mueller Campaign was unable to confirm that this President and his surrogates entered into a formal agreement to illegally hack the DNC emails!

Should we have someone investigate those allegations?
 
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com7fy8

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Thank you both for taking the time to deal with my ignorance :)
I think I heard him say there was not enough proof; yet, if he says he is sure there was "intent", I think this can be prosecutable.

A maybe different thing, for example, is if you yell you're going to kill someone, and then you start to move toward that person, they can get you for intent to commit murder.

Clinton was about in the same situation as Trump is their investigations.
In that case, it sounded like the FBI decided she was guilty but they decided not to prosecute her. If that is right, that is different than Donald being reported to not have enough to determine he is guilty. They concluded she was guilty, but maybe not guilty enough to make prosecuting her worthwhile.

Notice where our attention is being taken. Make sure your attention is where God guides your attention!
 
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HTacianas

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For the Attorney General to assert that this President is absolved from "collusion" is totally misleading, as the head of the Department of Justice he should be well aware that "collusion," is not considered a criminal offense and therefore the Mueller Investigation would have no legal grounds to make that accusation!

This is from the letter appointing Mueller to investigate:

(a) Robert S. Mueller III is appointed t() serve as Specia] Counsel for the United States Department of Justice.

(b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James 8. Comey in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:

(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump;

**************************

Mueller's investigation found no evidence of "any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump".

Your conclusions are wrong.
 
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jgarden

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This is from the letter appointing Mueller to investigate:

(a) Robert S. Mueller III is appointed t() serve as Special Counsel for the United States Department of Justice.

(b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James 8. Comey in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:

(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump;

**************************
Mueller's investigation found no evidence of "any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump".

Your conclusions are wrong.

1) "Links" could interpreted as "collusion," but as the Deputy Attorney was well aware, nobody has been convicted for "collusion" because no such law exists! The claims by the President and his Attorney General of "NO COLLUSION" are meaningless, despite suspicions concerning the intent behind the Russian links with 16 Trump surrogates, that alone doesn't constitute a crime!

2) "coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump" appears to refer to the criminal act of "conspiracy," but in order to justify a charge, the Mueller Report needed to find compelling evidence that the Trump Campaign not only entered into a formal agreement with the Russian government, but engaged in an illegal act to illegal hack the DNC emails!

3) While the actions of Trump and his surrogates to encourage the actions of a foreign power to influence the outcome of an American Presidential Election was morally reprehensible, it falls just short of the legal requirements to obtain a conviction for "conspiracy!
 
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redleghunter

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