Your Purgatory idea seems more accurate than heaven vs hell?

ClementofA · Sep 5, 2018

DennisTate said:
Howard Storm Ph. D" "It's way more complex than either the universalists or the fundamentalists think..... I think they have tried to make it so simple..... that's all they can handle ......but it's way more complicated than that."

I wonder why he would think anyone thinks it is "simple".

BTW, both universalists & fundamentalists can't both be right. Which side does Storm take on that, if any?

DennisTate · Oct 15, 2018

ClementofA said:
I wonder why he would think anyone thinks it is "simple".

BTW, both universalists & fundamentalists can't both be right. Which side does Storm take on that, if any?

I am not sure..... but actually both Universalists as well as Fundamentalists can in many senses of the word be both correct...... .depending on how TIME is defined........ Whether or not we allow for non-linear time that some Theoretical Physicists term Multiverse Theory...... that I personally consider could fit with Ezekiel chapter 37.

StevenMerten · Oct 17, 2018

DennisTate said:
I am not sure..... but actually both Universalists as well as Fundamentalists can in many senses of the word be both correct...... .depending on how TIME is defined........ Whether or not we allow for non-linear time that some Theoretical Physicists term Multiverse Theory...... that I personally consider could fit with Ezekiel chapter 37.

Hello Dennis,
I am not sure exactly what you are talking about on defining time.

God is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time. God can Hold the entire universe, from before creation to beyond the end of time, in the Palm of His Hand. Spiritual beings, Saints, Angels, and our deceased souls, live in the spiritual world outside of physical time as well.

Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, are not dead waiting to rise, but in heaven with God, before Jesus died on the cross for their sins, in physical time. Once Jesus dies for Abraham's sins, now he exists from before creation in physical time, and this is the point Jesus is making when He describes the Power of God.

Scripture tells us that the 'sons of God' shouted for joy, upon God creating all that exists. It sure will be cool for the saints, judged into eternal life, at the end of physical time by Jesus, to then go and watch creation come into existence!

The thief on the cross next to Jesus, certainly could have spent a great deal of spiritual time in purgatory and still been with Jesus in Paradise, on the same day he died in physical time.

Mark 12:18
Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question ...\\...12:24 Jesus said: "You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God . When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob'? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken."

JOB 38:7
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who streched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Concept quoted from: Creation

God created everything physical in the universe, including empty space, on the week Adam was made.

DennisTate · Oct 19, 2018

StevenMerten said:
Hello Dennis,
I am not sure exactly what you are talking about on defining time.

God is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time. God can Hold the entire universe, from before creation to beyond the end of time, in the Palm of His Hand. Spiritual beings, Saints, Angels, and our deceased souls, live in the spiritual world outside of physical time as well.

Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, are not dead waiting to rise, but in heaven with God, before Jesus died on the cross for their sins, in physical time. Once Jesus dies for Abraham's sins, now he exists from before creation in physical time, and this is the point Jesus is making when He describes the Power of God.

Scripture tells us that the 'sons of God' shouted for joy, upon God creating all that exists. It sure will be cool for the saints, judged into eternal life, at the end of physical time by Jesus, to then go and watch creation come into existence!

The thief on the cross next to Jesus, certainly could have spent a great deal of spiritual time in purgatory and still been with Jesus in Paradise, on the same day he died in physical time.

Mark 12:18
Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question ...\\...12:24 Jesus said: "You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God . When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob'? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken."

JOB 38:7
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who streched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Concept quoted from: Creation

God created everything physical in the universe, including empty space, on the week Adam was made.

What I just bolded..... in my opinion is an exceptionally good point that I really hadn't thought of previously...... Very intriguing indeed!!!!!

StevenMerten · Oct 21, 2018

Hello Dennis,

The Catholic Church did not just come up with the concept of purgatory on their own. You should pick up a book on Fatima. The Blessed Mother appeared to three shepard children, in Fatima Portugal, in 1917, and talked to them about many things, especially the need to pray for those in purgatory. So why believe the shepard children's story? Because the Blessed Mother backed her story up with the miracle of the sun which was witnessed by 60,000 people. Believers as well as scoffers witnessed the miracle of the sun. Even a neighboring town, 25 miles away witnessed the miracle. When the Blessed Mother backs up her words with miracles, and 60,000 people witness it, it is pretty hard for the Church, or anyone, to discount her words.

DennisTate · Apr 18, 2019

jesus316 said:
I agree our sins need to be removed (not merely covered over) before we enter heaven. No unclean thing enters heaven. (Revelation 21:27)

True....... this is interesting.

A Brief Survey of Jewish Afterlife Beliefs

Reflection on the inequalities of this life and on the apparent failure of Yahweh to make good on his covenant promises led serious religious thinkers to consider the option of resurrection. The resurrection of ordinary human beings seems to have originated in the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism. As a result of several centuries of Persian control of the Middle East region, Jews were brought into contact with Zoroastrian religious ideas and the notion of resurrection. Zoroaster combined resurrection with the idea of a final judgment, in which the entire human race is resurrected and individuals rewarded or punished. This concept clearly appealed to Jewish religious thinkers of the time as an adequate way of coming to grips with the injustices that were so apparent in this life.

As implied in the Book of Daniel, the Jewish notion of resurrection in the Maccabeean period was tied to a notion of judgment, and even to separate realms for the judged. In rabbinical thought, the model for heaven was Eden. The rabbinic word for hell, "Gehenna", is taken from the name of a valley of fire where children were said to be sacrificed as burnt offerings to Baal and Moloch (Semitic deities). Gehenna is a place of intense punishment and cleansing. This place is also known as "She'ol" and other names. This line of Jewish thought argues that after death the soul has to be purified before it can go on the rest of its journey. The amount of time needed for purification depends on how the soul dealt with life. One Jewish tradition states that a soul needs a maximum of 11 months for purification, which is why, when a parent dies, the kaddish (memorial prayer) is recited for 11 months. The concept of Gehenna as a place for temporary purification was the source for the orthodox Christian doctrine of "purgatory."

Michie · Apr 18, 2019

Chrystal-J · Apr 18, 2019

DennisTate said:
Former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. D. discussed the possibility of his converting to Catholicism with a priest but..... he was advised that he was doing great where he was.......
so he may as well continue his awesome work with the denomination that he was with.

Here are a few paragraphs from his book My Descent Into Death:

Howard Storm Ph. D:

I've found a few credible people that have "died" and come back to life. I find Howard Storm to be one of those. Others are: Bryan Melvin, Ian McCormack, and "Earthquake Kelley". Bryan and Ian were atheists before converting due to seeing hell and returning to their bodies. "Earthquake" was into Voodoo before converting.

thecolorsblend · Apr 19, 2019

Frankly, I have a very hard time believing in a lot of NDE stories. There are different reasons for that but the fact remains. And yet, one common element to a lot of these stories is some kind of variation on Purgatory, where people describe being shown key moments of their lives.

As a general note of caution, I want everybody to consider the probability that we don't know more than 5 or 10% of what happens in the afterlife. We know what we know. And we kind of know what we don't know.

But we absolutely don't know what we don't know is my guess. So these stories could very well be totally true. But at the same time there could also be zillions of elements to the afterlife that make these stories totally impossible. We can't be certain.

Be open-minded... but at the same time, don't accept just any story that comes along.

Chrystal-J · Apr 19, 2019

(In the ones I listed) the reason I find them credible is that they went from being atheists/Satanists, to believers after these experiences. The turn around is instantaneous. They then went on to form ministries in the Lord's name. The experiences were something similar to Paul's conversion (unexpected and permanent).
Also, I've had my own experiences of this nature (seeing visions of Christ, having dreams where I spoke to Jesus and what He said came to be true). Jesus spoke to Joseph in a dream, as well as others. So, I take that form of communication from God to be legitimate.
If Sister Faustina can see visions of hell, I feel that others can too.

DennisTate · Apr 30, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
Frankly, I have a very hard time believing in a lot of NDE stories. There are different reasons for that but the fact remains. And yet, one common element to a lot of these stories is some kind of variation on Purgatory, where people describe being shown key moments of their lives.

As a general note of caution, I want everybody to consider the probability that we don't know more than 5 or 10% of what happens in the afterlife. We know what we know. And we kind of know what we don't know.

But we absolutely don't know what we don't know is my guess. So these stories could very well be totally true. But at the same time there could also be zillions of elements to the afterlife that make these stories totally impossible. We can't be certain.

Be open-minded... but at the same time, don't accept just any story that comes along.

True.... and here is an ancient statement from a Jewish thinker that eventually became a part of the foundation for the idea of Purgatory.

Is There a Jewish Afterlife? | My Jewish Learning

The earliest reference to Gan Eden (the Garden of Eden) and Gehinnom as a pair is probably the rabbinic statement of the 1st century sage Yochanan ben Zakkai: “There are two paths before me, one leading to Gan Eden and the other to Gehinnom (Berakhot 28b).”

Tomm · Apr 30, 2019

Read Gloria Polo's story, she saw purgatory in her spiritual experience.

Gloria Polo

PanDeVida · May 7, 2019

DennisTate said:
I have been asking myself this question since 1990 when I began to study near death experience accounts?

Twenty eight years later after studying hundreds of NDE's I think that yes... the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory is closer to the full truth than the Protestant heaven vs hell teachings. I believe that the key to understanding this is to realize that time is an invention...... that was created by the most off the scale intellect in the universe / Multiverse... and time... was invented to assist human and angelic souls to progress from point A to point B spiritually, mentally, emotionally and yes... even in the types of bodies that we are given.

(I saw the following question on another forum):

I replied:
Purgatory is just a word...... it is subject to definition....... it may have been the closest word that your dad could think of even after several months of being in a higher dimension of space - time. For example.... the word translated "forever" in the Bible in English..... comes from a Hebrew word that actually means....."until the end of conditions last."

Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience

Please notice this last sentence:
"These are the spirits of people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth; but, like the spirits in hell, these spirits cannot see Jesus either." (Dr. George Ritchie)....
if these spirits cannot see Jesus.....
are they in the Christian heaven????

Isaiah 6: 6And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

LIVE COAL = FIRE like that of Purgatory that touched Isaiah's mouth that his INIQUITIES be taken away and God does not stop there, and Isaiah's SINS be cleansed, in other words, washed away but through FIRE aka LIVE COAL aka Purgatory.

Pan De Vida

DennisTate · May 8, 2019

Tomm said:
Read Gloria Polo's story, she saw purgatory in her spiritual experience.

Gloria Polo

Thank you.......

DennisTate · May 9, 2019

Tomm said:
Read Gloria Polo's story, she saw purgatory in her spiritual experience.

Gloria Polo

I so thank you for introducing me to her story!

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!

What about the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory?

Tomm · May 9, 2019

DennisTate said:
I so thank you for introducing me to her story!

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's my pleasure !

DennisTate · May 10, 2019

Tomm said:
It's my pleasure !

You have given me information that I felt was worthy of the "Physical & Life Sciences" forum here........ which can be a pretty demanding group!

Doctors astonished after miraculous near death experience recovery.

DennisTate said:
This verification of what sure looks like a miracle to me is explained after the seven minute mark in this text audio video:

Your Purgatory idea seems more accurate than heaven vs hell?

Do NDE accounts remind you of the idea of Purgatory?

Yes

No

I am not sure... but I will look into this.

I am not Catholic yet but I have been wondering about this very idea.

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