Christians, your feelings about non-Christians on CF?

cloudyday2 said:

Many Christians view Mormonism as a dangerous pseudo-Christian cult

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Well I believe that about Mormonism myself, I just don't see what that should have to do with their ability to start threads, if it is still restricted as it was a few years ago (when I, not knowing about this restriction, told a Mormon poster that they could make their own thread on subject X if they wanted to, and was educated that, no, that's not the case).

I'm a big proponent of "I disagree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it." I bet if we were to poll people here on CF about it (at least in the abstract like that), we'd probably get a lot more agreement with that statement than disagreement.

StromRider said:

The powers that be have decided that non-Christians can play, on a limited basis. So here we are. Why are you assuming it's non-Christians with an axe to grind? Some of the most interesting conflicts here have been between the various flavours of Christianity questioning the piety of each other like some kind of Monty Python skit.

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I've seen more of this than anything else in my more than a decade of membership here. It's enlightening to see how much internal conflict their is among even similar Christian groups. Though these days I don't so much have a dog in that race.

Occams Barber said:

You may not be aware of it but there are now very few forums where non-Christians can actually post on CF- the system won't allow it. There is now, for instance, a separate Christians Only Discussion/Debate Forum apart from the general access version where non-Christians can post.

While non-Christian access has always been restricted, it was dramatically reduced a few months back when access to denominational forums was blocked to non-Christians. I found this a little amusing since the major problem in the denominational forums seemed to be coming from other Christian posters.

Overall I think you'll find that non-Christian traffic on CF is very low and concentrated around the open access versions of the Science type forums.
OB

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Hi, OB. I noticed that there was some tightening up of the forums as regards non-Christians, but I apparently did not pay close attention to that. Yet you say "dramatically reduced," and that comes as something of a surprise to me.

Niblo said:

'We're going to need a bigger boat!' Wasn't that 'Jaws'?

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Yes. A bit like the retelling of Leviathan.

Niblo said:

'We're going to need a bigger boat!' Wasn't that 'Jaws'?

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or it was a couple of mice watching when the elephants
were walking up the gangway, and into the ark.

And then said Noah unto them, "Oh, you of little faith."

@cloudyday2 I do not consent to the "Right to Free Speech." I think there should be Freedom of association, however. If people mess up in logic or definition, on their head be it.

Freedom of speech. Includes lying, and Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.

A Right being a permission.

cloudyday2 said:

There are some non-Christians members on CF who have no interest in converting to Christianity but enjoy the conversations here. As a non-Christian member, I sometimes feel that the many moderators and members would like me to go away. I bought a lifetime membership several years ago, but I wouldn't want to hang around at CF thinking I am adding value to the conversations when maybe I am only an irritant. It is easy to misunderstand or overlook the feelings of others when typing on keyboards.

The forums where non-Christians can participate are called "outreach" forums, and I suppose that "outreach" might not include conversations with people who have shown no interest in conversion over years of membership.

So I was curious what Christians members honestly feel about that.

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Within reason I like it. One problem I've seen in both American Evangelical Christianity and in various ethic Eastern Christian Churches is the tendency to self exile into ghettos of like minded thought. That sort of thing can be great for asking very detailed questions about a specific Faith tradition but can be boring otherwise in the sense of the old saying "variety is the spice of life" and I think there is some truth as far as dialectics are concerned. You learn more by talking to people from diverse backgrounds, the famous "Joehari" window can really demonstrate that truth.

Besides that I tend to follow the Scripture that says

1 PETER 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man who asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.


There are some exceptions to this how ever. Sometimes I think atheists tend to take advantage of the rules of some sites. Years ago, 2013 I believe I was on "Thinking Atheist" forums. I went there for a variety of reasons. 1) Many online Christians were not into the same hobbies I was into. I'm talking about role playing games computer and in person, watching the Walking Dead etc. 2) I had spent some time on Creation Apologetics and was willing to talk discuss, etc. that sort of thing, 3) I have benefited an admired in the past from some atheist thinkers like Albert Ellis and Christopher Hitchins etc. and I wasn't adverse to doing more of that etc. But in general, I was kind of appalled at the online behavior of the board. There were some nice atheists there but the other half could be very patronizing, stereotyping, doing rampant ad hominens etc.

Anyway I notice there seems to be a discrepancy between how people act and behave on each other's boards.

cloudyday2 said:

I'm not so sure.

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You could very well be right. I could certainly be too optimistic.

Many CF members might feel that there are other forums besides CF where non-Christians can express their views, and CF has a commission from Jesus to spread His teachings. While free speech advocates might laud my ability to express my views on CF, if my posts are detrimental to the commission that Jesus gave to all his disciples then CF would probably have a duty to limit my free speech.

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Well I don't know about including Jesus in any of this (if He has registered for any online forum, I have yet to see Him), but now you are talking about what would essentially be the moderating staff's decision. I know better than to argue about that. But as to the general idea that this place is to be for the continuance and spread of Christianity, certainly. But again, I don't see that in a way that is exclusive of others who are not Christians (i.e., Mormons, atheists, pagans, etc.) being able to express opinions and ask questions. What type of Christianity is it that only exists in the absence of any serious competing philosophy? I don't know, but I bet it's not very healthy, due to what is probably a long period of lethargy and hence having grown flabby and ineffective. (*cough*) When HH Pope Tawadros II appeared on 60 minutes some time ago, he visibly shocked the interviewer by insisting that, yes, the Church not only produces martyrs, but it must produce martyrs from age to age, today being no exception.

And yet there are some people who cannot handle being disagreed with on an internet messageboard. Hmm. There goes "the seed of the Church", then? Nah. That would be silly. The drive to hermetically seal off any forums (religious or not) from outside opinion or questions produces sickness. (NB: not to encourage trolling/blatant hostility on clearly marked confessional forums, which is the sign of a different problem, but to be able to say "Okay, we see a difference between 'this person disagrees' or 'this person is not understanding where we are coming from' and actual trolling.")

Heresies are viewed as particularly dangerous because they are so similar to orthodoxy and can easily ensnare people who are seeking Christ.

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Yes, certainly. I maintain that this messageboard is not a Holy Synod, however.

So I can see why CF might not want their computers and software to be used to lead people away from Christianity, and I can see why they might see non-Christian members as a danger for that reason.

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Yes, I can too, but I think we may be looking slightly different aspects: I am talking about the freedom to ask questions and express doubts relative to whatever background the person comes here from/with, not to use CF as a soapbox from which to spread Mormonism, Islam, Buddhism, etc. (whatever isn't Christianity)

I see a very large difference between the two, even though it can be argued that one can be a kind of cover for the other. (Hence we should hope to have religiously and historically literate moderators and 'forum laity'.)

Albion said:

Hi, OB. I noticed that there was some tightening up of the forums as regards non-Christians, but I apparently did not pay close attention to that. Yet you say "dramatically reduced," and that comes as something of a surprise to me.

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We (non-theists) lost access (we can see discussions but can't post) to the entire Christian Congregations Forum group - around 31 individual forums sub-divided into Christian Communities and Faith Groups. CC is the busiest Forum on CF with around 250,000 threads and 5,600,000 messages.

To be honest I rarely go there - as a non-theist it's all a bit arcane and I don't understand most of the jargon. It's a great place to go if you want to see a good scrap.

I think of it as CF's version of Fight Club.
OB

cloudyday2 said:

There are some non-Christians members on CF who have no interest in converting to Christianity but enjoy the conversations here. As a non-Christian member, I sometimes feel that the many moderators and members would like me to go away. I bought a lifetime membership several years ago, but I wouldn't want to hang around at CF thinking I am adding value to the conversations when maybe I am only an irritant. It is easy to misunderstand or overlook the feelings of others when typing on keyboards.

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I do not feel that way. Although I do not talk about my atheism or try to debunk aspects of Christianity very often. Heck, it was a Christian here that bought me a lifetime membership as a Christmas gift. Only thing that might cause some anger is when I talk about my own experiences with Christianity and perspectives about the religion. Even then, it's probably more disgust than hatred.

RichardY said:

A Right being a permission.

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No, a right is kind of the opposite of a permission.

cloudyday2 said:

My favorite was the "happy atheist" forum. There were a lot of smart and nice people there, but the traffic was low.

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So...the traffic was low at the "happy atheist" forum? That's telling.

Occams Barber said:

We (non-theists) lost access (we can see discussions but can't post) to the entire Christian Congregations Forum group - around 31 individual forums sub-divided into Christian Communit ties and Faith Groups. CC is the busiest Forum on CF with around 250,000 threads and 5,600,000 messages.

To be honest I rarely go there - as a non-theist it's all a bit arcane and I don't understand most of the jargon. It's a great place to go if you want to see a good scrap.

I think of it as CF's version of Fight Club.
OB

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I can imagine that those forums come across in the way you describe, but really, why would a non-theist be on one of those particular forums anyway?

As long as the Non-Christian members are being civil and respectful I don't take issue with them. I often appreciate their feedback, especially on topics like creationism and Flat Earth because let's be honest. I often disagree with my fellow Christians on those subjects more than I agree.

Albion said:

I can imagine that those forums come across in the way you describe, but really, why would a non-theist be on one of those particular forums anyway?

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In a word - curiosity. In my case it's more than just idle curiosity. Christians make up a major proportion of the population - more so in your country than mine. How Christians act and react, what they value (or don't) and how they see the world can affect the decisions made within my society. As a small example - the current Australian Prime Minister is a Pentecostal Christian. I suspect that decisions like the location of our Israeli embassy or the way religious freedom is legislated may be influenced by his beliefs. In the past we've also had Christian politicians opposing (hugely unsuccessfully) same sex marriage.

I've never been a Christian, so CF is teaching some fairly surprising (and disconcerting) things about Christian beliefs. As a sample:

• It would never have occurred to me that someone in a modern western society would actually believe in demons but I see it regularly on this Forum. This can lead to a distorted view of what causes what and how things might be fixed.
• The concept of End Times seems to result in some Christians adopting a fatalistic attitude to the larger world. As a result they may not see issues like Climate Change as important or abdicate any sense of responsibility for society (not voting is an example). From my point of view this is a dangerous attitude.
• I'm also aware of a strong anti-science thread running through this Forum. If this attitude becomes widespread there are dangers.

I'm not anti-Christian but I am wary of some Christian attitudes.

I'm sure you'd have your own concerns if the atheists were in charge.
OB

Occams Barber said:

In a word - curiosity. In my case it's more than just idle curiosity. Christians make up a major proportion of the population - more so in your country than mine. How Christians act and react, what they value (or don't) and how they see the world can affect the decisions made within my society.

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I understand. Certainly. But you said that you are allowed to read what is posted there, so that means that the curiosity factor is accommodated.

Albion said:

I understand. Certainly. But you said that you are allowed to read what is posted there, so that means that the curiosity factor is accommodated.

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I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm only interested in occasionally reading in that part of the Forum. I've never been interested in posting there since I have little, on that Forums topics, to contribute.

I may have left you with the impression that I'm unhappy about losing posting access to that Forum. I'm not.
OB

Occams Barber said:

• The concept of End Times seems to result in some Christians adopting a fatalistic attitude to the larger world. As a result they may not see issues like Climate Change as important or abdicate any sense of responsibility for society (not voting is an example). From my point of view this is a dangerous attitude.
• I'm also aware of a strong anti-science thread running through this Forum. If this attitude becomes widespread there are dangers.

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I agree 100% that these are problematic and I am a Christian. It's actually pretty sad.