Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

Kenny'sID · Apr 18, 2019

No Username Found said:
I was referring to the Law proper. Gentiles are not required to follow Jewish laws (like circumcision) to be saved. However, just because they don't have to follow the law for salvation (food, ceremonial, sacrificial...) that doesn't mean they can do anything they want. Galatians 5 specifically addresses the carnal Christian. They will not inherit the kingdom. They need to follow the two greatest commandments. First, to love God. But Jesus said that if you love Him you will obey the commandments.

OK, thanks, and please excuse anything in my reply that assumed you meant the commandments.

Gregory95 · Apr 18, 2019

SeventhFisherofMen said:
I just was curious about those posts online about people who have died that were Christian and experienced going to Hell. Do people really think that it’s all made up and you shouldn’t listen to those testimonies? Do people really think it’s impossible to lose your salvation? Cause there are many testimonies of people who have seen the names of some believers removed from the book of life due to backsliding and unrepentant sin.

Tell me what you think about all this, is it something that you just ignore and hope they’re wrong? Please explain what you do to convince yourself of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.

this is something that was always odd to me since man has free will

In the end i came to understand OSAS is false

Kenny'sID · Apr 18, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
The truth is a lot easier to deal with although not as comforting as lies.

What has been amazing to me is how None of those who believe in OSAS understand the theology of those who do not. Their whole explanantion consists of belittling our Position using a description that is absurd. (Like, "so do you lose your salvation after 1, 2, or 3 sins and are you then becoming saved and unsaved regularly?) Why are the so blind to what we believe? I understand perfectly what they believe. And I can explain it without and belittling or exaggeration if I choose. I have not met a single OSAS believer who can do this about the theology that does not embrace OSAS. This is why I say there is a spiritual blindness involved. Mentally it does not make sense. But a spiritual blindness fits.

I've used the term "reprobate" (as in refusing to accept) here, because you're right, they truly do not understand it in an overall sense, not consciously, but it does seem to seep out that they get it on a subconscious level....always the way. And the replies we get back after posting individual scriptures that beyond doubt prove them wrong, where they simply refuse to see the truth of the scripture, are so bizarre that if nothing else, it's truly interesting to watch.

The question is, when God gives people over to reprobate mind, as he has done in the past, can they ever come out of it? Some here say they did.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 18, 2019

fhansen said:
Ok, where's the theory though? I believe you agree that we can lose salvation?

We can lose our relationship with God losing us any “gift”
or advantage that we had gained.

Many consider their spouse a gift of God. That doesn’t mean they don’t need to do anything to
maintain the marriage.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 18, 2019

Kevin Connor said:
Perhaps it would help to think of being born again, in terms of race. Naturally speaking everyone is born NATURALLY (of a woman, the natural way) Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be BORN AGAIN. The first time, the natural way, the second time of the Spirit. The whole idea is in the term, BORN AGAIN. In Adam we are all born and live a natural life. BUT@ when someone believes into Jesus Christ, they experience a "rebirth" a second birth! The first is a natural birth and EVERYONE experiences that! When we are born AGAIN, we become born of God, born from above. Just as the choices we make in Adam have nothing to do with our natural heritage (if you think you are a dog and you live like a dog, and even act like a dog, no one will mistake you for a dog. EVERYONE born of Adam resembles Adam (no one looks like a dog). BUT! When we believe and are born again, we have to first die in who we are, naturally. We die, leaving the race of Adam behind. We become born of God or according to Matthew 1:1 This is the book of the GENERATION of Jesus Christ. Just as we resemble Adam in our natural birth, how much more will we resemble the second Adam, Jesus! How is it that a believer, who is truly born AGAIN, ever go back to what he/she DIED to??? DEATH is that impassable gulf that separates the living from the dead! They left the race of Adam and were born again of the generation of Jesus Christ! Hope this helps.

I don’t think this helps and no Bible writer refered to us entering the family of God as a race, which we cannot change not join. Salvation is like a marriage. I’m not the first to see thisz

fhansen · Apr 18, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
We can lose our relationship with God losing us any “gift”
or advantage that we had gained.

Many consider their spouse a gift of God. That doesn’t mean they don’t need to do anything to
maintain the marriage.

Ok...so I guess you agree about the "theory"-not sure tho.

Gods not mad · Apr 18, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
The gospel teaches men to repent of the sins. That is a requirement. Does it mean repenting is you saving you? It is works salvation if you see the need to repent?

please tell me what repentance looks like. let say you want to repent what would you do?

Dorothy Mae said:
A main defense of OSAS is attacking the character of their opponent. Believing you’re perfect or will be is a character issue, not theology, because the root is pride.

Using the old “you think you save yourself by works” attack is again a character issue. That is mainly what these people use and it shows the roots of that theology.

what are you talking about here someone who believes in osac has put all salvation to save in the hands of the savior Christ that sounds like the opposite of pride to me.

Dorothy Mae said:
OSASers have their whole eternal destiny on the line, they think, hence they attack like guard dogs any threat. The spirit reveals the source.

you really don't understand where OSACers are coming from. you think you do though.

Dorothy Mae said:
What has been amazing to me is how None of those who believe in OSAS understand the theology of those who do not. Their whole explanantion consists of belittling our Position using a description that is absurd. (Like, "so do you lose your salvation after 1, 2, or 3 sins and are you then becoming saved and unsaved regularly?) Why are the so blind to what we believe? I understand perfectly what they believe. And I can explain it without and belittling or exaggeration if I choose. I have not met a single OSAS believer who can do this about the theology that does not embrace OSAS. This is why I say there is a spiritual blindness involved. Mentally it does not make sense. But a spiritual blindness fits.

i discuss the theology that does not embrace osac all the time and i have throughout this forum as well. i spent 20 years believing your way so ask a question this is a exciting day for you you have finally met that one person. truth is i see on this forum a lot of osac members answering scriptural questions put i seem to never get my questions or scriptures addressed.

Dorothy Mae said:
We can lose our relationship with God losing us any “gift”
or advantage that we had gained.

Many consider their spouse a gift of God. That doesn’t mean they don’t need to do anything to
maintain the marriage.

sonship is blood marriage is an agreement. plus there was a high price paid for that sonship this is a weak argument.

please tell me what repentance looks like. let say you want to repent what would you do?

Gods not mad · Apr 18, 2019

SeventhFisherofMen said:
Dude wanting to obey God doesn’t somehow mean you think you’re perfectly following the law, it just means you try your best not to sin, ask for forgiveness when you do, and move forward. Why is this so hard I don’t see it needing 5 pages of a response to find a way around being obedient to God.

say you want to repent for a sin what do you do? you personally.

MDC · Apr 18, 2019

J.P. Zaleta said:
Hello, SeventhFisherofMen, and all.

Peed on, pooped on, puked on, by us. But…
Father still loves His little darlings.

Every parent has experienced that
at least once, I'm sure, but it did not lessen
the love we have for our children. Did it?

How do I know salvation is assured?
I know because it is not about me,
doing the saving it is about Jesus.

What is an infant doing that is ensuring it lives?
The peeing, pooping, puking… Perhaps?

Isn't the parent doing all the real work?
Making sure it has enough to drink, living water,
enough to eat, bread of life,
the daily bathe, cleansing of all unrighteousness.

Who insures the baby lives?
The infant is only enjoying what is being given.

I see the plan of salvation as:
God decides to create man.
He says the first 6 days of His creation are very good.
Having starting a very good work in us,
He will bring to completion.

Adam does his thing and all of his descendants
end up being condemned to death,
not for what they personally did
but because of what Adam did.
No choice on their part, death is assured by God.

Jesus, with a plan, to remedy this,
from before the foundation of the earth,
intercedes, showing His no greater love
for us, by choosing to die on the cross
for His enemies.

Life assured by God!
He takes the hit for our sins and dies for us.
He is raised from the dead. We are raised,
from the dead with him, to live forever with Him.

We had no choice to make us part of the first Adam.
We have no choice to make us part of second Adam.
In the first Adam all die in the second all live.

We live by what Jesus did for us
by giving us all life in the first Adam.
Which He took away from us so He could give
all of us eternal life in the second Adam.

He did this to demonstrate
His unconditional love
for us.

John wrote,
1 John 5:13 (KJV)

"These things have I written unto you
that believe on the name of the Son of God;
that ye may know that ye have eternal life,
and that ye may believe
on the name of the Son of God."

If we can lose it, we don't have it.
Above verse we do.
What do you think?

God bless
JP

Good way of putting it

MDC · Apr 18, 2019

fhansen said:
FWIW, historically the church had always believed that way. We can stray, we can refuse and reject the gift we've received, we can opt for a life of sin over the life of God, we can fall away again, just as Adam did originally. But keep following God on the straight path, returning to it/Him again if ever wandering off, striving, moving onward and upward overall, growing in love with the help of His grace and God will have a place for us in His Kingdom. He alone knows whose names are written the Book of Life and whose are not, but either way He's trustworthy and true and we can know He won't refuse anyone who's done right, who's done His will, to the best of their abilities and knowledge.

Wrong. What you cling to is pelagianism just like the rest holding on to this false doctrine of unbelief. Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches all of salvation is the gift of God in Christ. And that NOT of yourself! NOT of works! The elect are saved and created unto good works which God before had ordained that we should walk in them.

MDC · Apr 18, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
They who shipwreck their faith had a real true saving faith. It is a conscious choosing of sin and deliberately quenching the Holy Spirit. It is not easy nor quick but it can be and has been done.

For one working for their salvation, the deception is to think you had it to begin with. Eternal life = eternal security in Christ where the elects faith perseveres by Gods power and for His glory

fhansen · Apr 18, 2019

MDC said:
Wrong. What you cling to is pelagianism just like the rest holding on to this false doctrine of unbelief. Ephesians 2:8-10 teaches all of salvation is the gift of God in Christ. And that NOT of yourself! NOT of works! The elect are saved and created unto good works which God before had ordained that we should walk in them.

It's not a matter of works at that point, although obedience to God's will generally involves the works of love that He's prepared for us to do later at some point in our walk. But it's a matter of the will, that can reject God's overtures.

Pelagianism says that we don't need grace in order to please God; our own efforts can do so. Semi-Pelagianism teaches that one can cultivate faith on their own, which then opens them to the life of grace. Catholicism denies both. Faith is a gift of grace; everything is a gift of grace. And yet gifts can be refused/rejected. Man cannot possibly be saved without the gift, without God the Savior, and yet he can still refuse to be saved.

His student · Apr 18, 2019

SeventhFisherofMen said:
Do people really think it’s impossible to lose your salvation?

Yes and I'm one of them.

SeventhFisherofMen said:
Please explain what you do to convince yourself of the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.

If I believe even these three straight forward scriptures among the dozens that tell me so (and I do) that is enough.

"....I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6

"I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2 Timothy 1:12

"Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:4

Now if you meet Him face to face and He "never" knew you - that's another kettle of fish entirely.

MDC · Apr 18, 2019

fhansen said:
It's not a matter of works at that point, although obedience to God's will generally involves the works of love that He's prepared for us to do later at some point in our walk. But it's a matter of the will, that can reject God's overtures.

Pelagianism says that we don't need grace in order to please God; our own efforts can do so. Semi-Pelagianism teaches that one can cultivate faith on their own, which then opens them to the life of grace. Catholicism denies both. Faith is a gift of grace; everything is a gift of grace. And yet gifts can be refused/rejected. Man cannot possibly be saved without the gift, without God the Savior, and yet he can still refuse to be saved.

It is a matter of works according to you all who hold to losing your salvation by works. The whole idea of maintaining salvation by righteous works of obedience is contrary to the gospel. Your Arminian theology holds to mans will as the foundation for salvation whether you give adherence to Gods grace or not. Semi pelagianism Arminianism leads back to full blown pelagianism. As you hold mans will above Gods Sovereign will. Cooperative salvation is a form of pelagianism. It’s root is man centered and cannot see it’s sin for what it is

fhansen · Apr 18, 2019

MDC said:
It is a matter of works according to you all who hold to losing your salvation by works. The whole idea of maintaining salvation by righteous works of obedience is contrary to the gospel. Your Arminian theology holds to mans will as the foundation for salvation whether you give adherence to Gods grace or not. Semi pelagianism Arminianism leads back to full blown pelagianism. As you hold mans will above Gods Sovereign will. Cooperative salvation is a form of pelagianism. It’s root is man centered and cannot see it’s sin for what it is

Man is LOST. He couldn't find his way to his Creator or heaven no matter how hard he tried, even with the Law and even if he excelled at fulfilling it as Paul had as a Pharisee. Man is, first of all, in desperate need of communion with His Creator, 'Apart from Whom man can do nothing', (John 15:5), a relationship that was shattered at the Fall. We're here to, hopefully, learn of our desperation, of our need, so that, like Prodigals having experienced the pigsty, we may, as willfully as possible, with help, turn away from this world and its "offerings" as God calls us, as the Savior seeks to save and run back to our Father who's always been waiting with open arms. "Cooperative salvation" as per Phil 2 is the heart and soul of the Christian faith from Eden to Christ. Choose obedience, choose life, choose goodness, choose love, choose God.

God hasn't been patiently working with humanity since the beginning, with and through all the pain, suffering, sin, and death, for nothing, to then simply, suddenly decide to save a few otherwise worthless wretches and damn the rest. Rather He's been working on molding, on attracting the will of man so that, when the time was ripe in human history, and ripe in our own individual histories, we may just respond to the light. God has allowed darkness/evil for one reason: to help us learn to hate and reject it-by experience- and run to and embrace the Good, alone, as we will. Otherwise evil would have no purpose whatsoever-and that would certainly not cast a good light on the One who allowed it.

MDC · Apr 18, 2019

fhansen said:
Man is LOST. He couldn't find his way to his Creator or heaven no matter how hard he tried, even with the Law and even if he excelled at fulfilling it as Paul had as a Pharisee. Man is, first of all, in desperate need of communion with His Creator, 'Apart from Whom man can do nothing', (John 15:5), a relationship that was shattered at the Fall. We're here to, hopefully, learn of our desperation, of our need, so that, like Prodigals having experienced the pigsty, we may, as willfully as possible, with help, turn away from this world and its "offerings" as God calls us, as the Savior seeks to save and run back to our Father who's always been waiting with open arms. "Cooperative salvation" as per Phil 2 is the heart and soul of the Christian faith from Eden to Christ. Choose obedience, choose life, choose goodness, choose love, choose God.

God hasn't been patiently working with humanity since the beginning, with and through all the pain, suffering, sin, and death, for nothing, to then simply, suddenly decide to save a few otherwise worthless wretches and damn the rest. Rather He's been working on molding, on attracting the will of man so that, when the time was ripe in human history, and ripe in our own individual histories, we may just respond to the light. God has allowed darkness/evil for one reason: to help us learn to hate and reject it-by experience- and run to and embrace the Good, alone, as we will. Otherwise evil would have no purpose whatsoever-and that would certainly not cast a good light on the One who allowed it.

If man is lost then how can man add anything towards his justification and salvation? By believing your works plays a role towards your justification before God proves that cooperative salvation denies grace. Denies the gospel. And denies mans wretched sinful depravity and inability. Your opinion and philosophical view of why God does or did what He did with mankind isn’t biblical. But man centered

fhansen · Apr 18, 2019

MDC said:
If man is lost then how can man add anything towards his justification and salvation? By believing your works plays a role towards your justification before God proves that cooperative salvation denies grace. Denies the gospel. And denies mans wretched sinful depravity and inability. Your opinion and philosophical view of why God does or did what He did with mankind isn’t biblical. But man centered

He can only actively begin to cooperate with God's will once he's been found. God establishes and enables cooperation from the beginning. But at any time grace is resistible. Man can always refuse it at the beginning-or walk away from it at any point later.

It's as in the Parable of the Talents. God gives us "talents" to "invest"- but we can refuse-and bury them. He wants us to develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness, a righteousness that only He can provide to us, and He wants us to own it more and more as we continue to walk with and cooperate with Him, growing in justice/righteousness, He placing His Law in our minds and writing them on our hearts as we continue to abide in Him and He in us. He wants very the best from-and for-us, with more expected from those given more (Luke 12:48). He knows our potential; He created us in his image, and He wants to elicit that potential, without force or coercion. He just knows what we only reluctantly (due to pride) know, just how much we need Him. That's what Adam missed.

MDC · Apr 18, 2019

fhansen said:
He can only actively begin to cooperate with God's will once he's been found. God establishes and enables cooperation from the beginning. But at any time grace is resistible. Man can always refuse it at the beginning-or walk away from it at any point later.

It's as in the Parable of the Talents. God gives us "talents" to "invest"- but we can refuse-and bury them. He wants us to develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness, a righteousness that only He can provide to us, and He wants us to own it more and more as we continue to walk with and cooperate with Him, growing in justice/righteousness, He placing His Law in our minds and writing them on our hearts as we continue to abide in Him and He in us. He wants very the best from-and for-us, with more expected from those given more (Luke 12:48). He knows our potential; He created us in his image, and He wants to elicit that potential, without force or coercion. He just knows what we only reluctantly (due to pride) know, just how much we need Him. That's what Adam missed.

Is Christ Jesus sufficient to save alone apart from mans cooperation?

fhansen · Apr 18, 2019

MDC said:
Is Christ Jesus sufficient to save alone apart from mans cooperation?

Of course, He can save us however He wants. He could have prevented man from falling to begin with for that matter. And that's the point; He does it the way He wants, according to His wisdom.

Without Christ, we remain lost. But we can still choose to refuse his offer anyway, we can refuse to be found. We can remain in our pride, remain apart from God; we can remain in our sin, or turn back to it again if we ever forfeited it.

MDC · Apr 18, 2019

fhansen said:
Of course, He can save us however He wants. He could have prevented man from falling to begin with for that matter. And that's the point; He does it the way He wants, according to His wisdom.

Without Christ, we remain lost. But we can still choose to refuse his offer anyway. We can remain in our pride, we can remain in our sin, or turn back to it again if we ever forfeited it.

There’s always a BUT when ones doctrine cannot submit to the sufficiency of Christ alone in salvation. In regeneration doesn’t the will of mans desire of righteousness and his desire to flee wickedness a natural response from being saved? Is not the sanctification process in a believer done by Gods power and Spirit alone as the believer perseveres in faith to the end? Is not faith the gift of God to the elect alone and the result of regeneration? So you are saying mans willingness to stay obedient and faithful to the end is the decisive factor whether one is saved in the end or not correct? How then if man must cooperate in order to stay saved is Christ alone sufficient to save? Technically you’re saying Christ is only a help for man to work for his salvation

Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

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