You must PROVE you LOVE the LORD to be saved!

Aldebaran said:

Do you think we really have a choice? If we belong to Him, then we belong to Him along with everything that goes with that.

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We definately have choices and belonging to Him or our family or our company or our nation does not change the ability to make choices.

But your statement is interesting. We sang the song, "here in the love of Christ I stand" last Sunday and based on that theology I wrote the following verses to it Monday,

What 'er I do
it's all His fault
He makes me choose
that which I ought

So I am free
of guilt and shame
it's not my fault
I'm not to blame

I have this peace
When things go wrong
We can't resist
a God that strong.

Seems to reflect your position. Or am I mistaken?

BCsenior said:

IMO, God decides to give some a chance,
and does everything in His power to help them
become overcomers.

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I have not observed this either in the Bible nor in the lives of people who walked with God. God wills that none perish but that all are saved. God loved the world, not just some he chooses.

BUT ... ultimately it's up to them and their
free will choices to cooperate, be obedient, and etc.

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Correct.

I know, I know ... WOW!
But, that's what I see in Scripture.
Sorry, no room to give 1000 proof verses.
My name's not Jason.

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Not sure what this is in reference to so I cannot really respond.

Dorothy Mae said:

Then why do you describe those who fell away doing this? No one does this. But they fall away from the faith because the pleasure of sin is strong.

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Some might not fall away because of sin.
Some Christians may be hit by illness/ tragedy/disappointment, and expect God to answer their prayers and prevent the worst outcome, or to reverse the situation, find that he doesn't and decide they don't want to know him any more - it happens. Their changed circumstances lead them to run away from God instead of towards him.
Then they decide to sin and do what they know God doesn't want; God wasn't there for them, they reason, so they are not going to bother with him.

Now you could argue that maybe they weren't truly born again to begin with, or that they had a false view of God; that he was there to do only what they wanted. That might be valid. But the result is still the same - they professed the faith; they left the faith because of some tragedy and found God and/or the church weren't there for them when they needed them.

Dorothy Mae said:

They don’t fall away because they “decided” to hurt God. That’s absurd.No one does this.

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No, some experience some disappointment with God, and once they are no longer in fellowship with him, not abiding in the vine, they don't care whether they hurt him or not.
Deliberate sin will then take them even further away from God, because it acts as a barrier.

Dorothy Mae said:

You need to drop that idea. It is a straw man argument.

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Well no; not exactly.
I've been through it myself - times when I've, foolishly, thought "I'm not talking to you, God. You promised ..... and didn't do it/I was sad, lonely etc and expected you to come and help me." So I didn't read the Bible for a few days and didn't care about prayer because I wasn't talking to him. During those days when I was out of fellowship with God, I may well have done things which I would normally have avoided. If you are living IN the Lord, in fellowship with him, you might try to check your thoughts or behaviour; if you are "sulking", as I was, you may not care. I think my thought at one point was "God has hurt me so I'm going to hurt him."
Maybe that IS absurd; maybe I'm the only person to have ever entertained such nonsense - but I did. I also know of devout church goers (yes, I know that doesn't make them Christians) who have stopped going and rejected the faith after a sad family bereavement.

Dorothy Mae said:

Maybe I’ve mistaken you for someone else. That person would never have responded as well as you have here.

I must be mistaken , my apologies.

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It's fine - though another time it might be good to check before you accuse someone of hypocrisy.

Strong in Him said:

Some might not fall away because of sin.
Some Christians may be hit by illness/ tragedy/disappointment, and expect God to answer their prayers and prevent the worst outcome, or to reverse the situation, find that he doesn't and decide they don't want to know him any more - it happens.

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Their unbelief at that point is sin. But Jesus did say the troubles of life cause some to fall awaY.

Their changed circumstances lead them to run away from God instead of towards him.
Then they decide to sin and do what they know God doesn't want; God wasn't there for them, they reason, so they are not going to bother with him.

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I know plenty who dropped their faith and none of them sin just because they want to hurt God, not because sin was pleasurable. The famous now atheist once music minister Dan Barker doesn’t even say that. We don’t know if sin hurts God. Not sure He’s that vulnerable. Sad? yes. Hurt? Doubtful.

Now you could argue that maybe they weren't truly born again to begin with, or that they had a false view of God; that he was there to do only what they wanted. That might be valid. But the result is still the same - they professed the faith; they left the faith because of some tragedy and found God and/or the church weren't there for them when they needed them.

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Exceot for the bit about them never truly being borne again, I agree.

No, some experience some disappointment with God, and once they are no longer in fellowship with him, not abiding in the vine, they don't care whether they hurt him or not.

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We don’t possess the power to hurt God.

Deliberate sin will then take them even further away from God, because it acts as a barrier.

Well no; not exactly.
I've been through it myself - times when I've, foolishly, thought "I'm not talking to you, God. You promised ..... and didn't do it/I was sad, lonely etc and expected you to come and help me." So I didn't read the Bible for a few days and didn't care about prayer because I wasn't talking to him. During those days when I was out of fellowship with God, I may well have done things which I would normally have avoided. If you are living IN the Lord, in fellowship with him, you might try to check your thoughts or behaviour; if you are "sulking", as I was, you may not care. I think my thought at one point was "God has hurt me so I'm going to hurt him."
Maybe that IS absurd; maybe I'm the only person to have ever entertained such nonsense - but I did. I also know of devout church goers (yes, I know that doesn't make them Christians) who have stopped going and rejected the faith after a sad family bereavement.

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You’re the first I heard of who wanted to hurt God. I too was once disappointed with life but I never wanted to hurt God. Never occurred to me.

Aldebaran said:

Did the son stop being their son?
Clearly not! Although Jesus said we're to be "perfect" as our Heavenly Father is perfect, He obviously doesn't expect us to achieve perfection by following a bunch of rules. That's because we are only perfect because of Christ's gift to us by what He did on the cross. It is NOT achieved by our loving God a sufficient amount.

Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

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When did this standard come into the discussion?

Aldebaran said:

Can a son of God end up in hell and remain a son? Let's see how Paul addresses that....

"Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." Romans 8:17



We've just been talking about that this entire time.

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If we don’t share in his sufferings, we are no longer sons in that sense. It is not a permanent state judging from this scripture. If we don’t, we aren’t. Pretty clear.

Aldebaran said:

Do you think we really have a choice? If we belong to Him, then we belong to Him along with everything that goes with that.

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We certainly can refuse to share in his sufferings and the Bible tells us those who did. That is a real choice one makes or refuses.

Aldebaran said:

Acts 16:30-31
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

Anything else you want to say is "dangerously incorrect"?

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He who loves me keeps my teaching. Do you think one goes to heaven without loving God?

BCsenior said:

Paul addresses BACs as "chosen and called"
of God ... he means NOT everyone is, IMO.
The indwelling Holy Spirit does His best to teach
them, help them, sanctify them unto holiness.

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Did Paul ever call anyone a born again christian?

Aldebaran said:

After Jesus uttered the words.

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Jesus isn’t contributing to the discussion for there to be a “before” he says something and “after.”

BCsenior said:

No, but perhaps he should have ...
if he was aware of John 3:3,7.

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Isnt it rather sticky to say that you know better what the Bible should have said?

He did say, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ,
he is a new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17)

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He also said some he knew fell away shipwrecking their faith. He did not believe OSAS. It was invented later when men wanted to believe they go to heaven without a commitment to following Jesus.

Peter did ... "having been born again,
not of corruptible seed but incorruptible seed"
(1 Peter 1:23)

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That which is born can also die. The seed is not the man. The man can be corrupted.

Aldebaran said:

I guess I make the points that I have, even if they're not in agreement with whoever is arguing with me.

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You throw in matters not pertinent.

Aldebaran said:

I don't think the book of John had been written and published yet.

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You think the word of God changes with time? Later books are different than former??