Questioning my Protestant heritage
- Thread starter Mary Meg
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Most Protestant traditions do not believe that the church completely fell apart and lost the truth. Most Reformers like Luther and Calvin were not seeking to return to the New Testament Church. Rather, they fully owned the post apostolic church, the church fathers, and the early medieval church. But they believed that corruptions had snuck in mainly during the late medieval period that compromised the gospel. They wanted to purge the church of such Romish innovations. Calvin believed that the Reformers matched the early church much better than the Roman Church of their day did.
But as far as the church erring, don't we see churches slipping into serious errors even in the New Testament itself? Why does Jesus continual presence with the church and guidance of the church make the church immune from all error? Couldn't movements like the Reformation also be a result of Jesus' presence with and guidance of his church in every age?
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I didn't see this one earlier.
Sure, the Church Fathers are subject to the same problems of interpreting Scripture as anybody else. But several things give me pause: one, how especially the earliest writers (like Ignatius) seem to come out of the first century apparently convinced of such doctrines like a single bishop ruling over a local church and the realness of Jesus in the body in the blood -- with scarcely time for the ink of the New Testament to dry. Who apparently knew the Apostle John or at least people who had known him.
Second: The Church Fathers don't seem to have much concept of "interpretation" where doctrine is concerned. There are some passages, sure, where they discuss how some writers say this, others this, and this is what I believe. But when it comes to doctrine, they say this is what I was taught, and the immutability of that tradition (handing down of doctrine) is precisely how they define "orthodoxy."
Third: There are definitely some matters where the Church Fathers don't agree and seem to have their own interpretations. But there are others where their testimony is universal, they all teaching the same thing, for example the witness for baptismal regeneration. So it can't be a matter of a single person getting his interpretation wrong.
Sure, the Church Fathers are subject to the same problems of interpreting Scripture as anybody else. But several things give me pause: one, how especially the earliest writers (like Ignatius) seem to come out of the first century apparently convinced of such doctrines like a single bishop ruling over a local church and the realness of Jesus in the body in the blood -- with scarcely time for the ink of the New Testament to dry. Who apparently knew the Apostle John or at least people who had known him.
Second: The Church Fathers don't seem to have much concept of "interpretation" where doctrine is concerned. There are some passages, sure, where they discuss how some writers say this, others this, and this is what I believe. But when it comes to doctrine, they say this is what I was taught, and the immutability of that tradition (handing down of doctrine) is precisely how they define "orthodoxy."
Third: There are definitely some matters where the Church Fathers don't agree and seem to have their own interpretations. But there are others where their testimony is universal, they all teaching the same thing, for example the witness for baptismal regeneration. So it can't be a matter of a single person getting his interpretation wrong.
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Okay. Just wondering. Via Crucis will have to answer. I no longer have access to his works.
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Tree of Life
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@Mary Meg In this venture you will end up having to answer this question for yourself:
Where can God's word infallibly be found?
If you say: "Scripture alone" then you'll end up being some kind of Protestant. But this doesn't mean you must throw out all tradition. Many Protestants have a very high view of tradition, however they do not believe tradition to be infallible.
If you say: "Scripture and Tradition" then you'll end up being Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.
Where can God's word infallibly be found?
If you say: "Scripture alone" then you'll end up being some kind of Protestant. But this doesn't mean you must throw out all tradition. Many Protestants have a very high view of tradition, however they do not believe tradition to be infallible.
If you say: "Scripture and Tradition" then you'll end up being Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.
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tampasteve
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It is poor form to take something out of context like that, and in context it is quite powerful:
"If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly, for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin. This life is not the dwelling place of righteousness, but, as Peter says, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. It is enough that by the riches of God’s glory we have come to know the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. Do you think that the purchase price that was paid for the redemption of our sins by so great a Lamb is too small? Pray boldly—you too are a mighty sinner."
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So what are you actually suggesting? You've posted a whole lot here and it's kind of a jumble... Are you for sola fide or against it? Are you for sola scriptura or against it? Are you Charismatic? You talk about there being other options that Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, but pretty much everything split off one of those movements, didn't they?
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2 Timothy 2:15 says
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
While I am not undermining that there are not gifted teachers in the body, this verse suggests we do not have to be spoon fed everything but we have to study ourselves to show ourselves approved unto God. The Bible talks about how God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Meaning, do not look to men or a church organization but look unto God and His Word.
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
While I am not undermining that there are not gifted teachers in the body, this verse suggests we do not have to be spoon fed everything but we have to study ourselves to show ourselves approved unto God. The Bible talks about how God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Meaning, do not look to men or a church organization but look unto God and His Word.
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Those are broad questions that are hard to answer. Simpler and smaller is usually a better way to start.
For the most part, no, that is not the point. Rather, it is a confusion of justification and sanctification. But you're in good company. It's a struggle many have.
It's a mistake to try to judge how Christian someone is, as if they can be put on a scale where some score a 6.7 and others score an 8.9. It's a mistake because it doesn't matter. Christianity is not about them. It's about Christ.
Sure. IMO admiring people doesn't mean blinding yourself to their faults, but admiring what they accomplished in spite of their faults. That's where you will find God at work.
It was a gradual process, and not a monolithic one. Maybe you don't realize it but the term "Roman Catholic" was originally a pejorative used by the more radical Protestants. It's not something the RCC originally called itself. They simply viewed themselves as Christians. And there have been many faithful Christians through the entire history of the church - even when (according to Protestant polemicists) it was "bad". The errors were promoted by relatively few, but unfortunately those few held considerable power.
Martin Luther was not the first to call for Reformation, and it should be noted that many of the people who made that call were devout members of what we now call the RCC - some of them well-respected within the church hierarchy. They called for a "reformation" because that's what they wanted. They wanted to correct the errors, not start a new church. The call for reformation is something that never ends.
Starting new churches was, in part, a political appropriation of the Reformation movement by others. At the same time, the RCC was not without fault. The rigid, arrogant, and blind response of some important, powerful church leaders made the break almost inevitable.
The important thing is not to think of the RCC as all good or all bad. The Church is made up of people who are both saints and sinners.
Again, it's not an all or nothing thing. We all have misconceptions. That's why God's plan to save us by Christ's redeeming work is so perfect - because it doesn't depend on us having a perfect anything.
Again, not all the Reformers claimed it was wholly corrupt. That's a polemic that came later - some rather inaccurate history that's been fed to you for ... for reasons I'm not sure of.
Sure. Like I said, start small. Eventually you'll talk through everything on the list.
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There is good in your Protestant heritage, so take every good thing you can from it. And then become Catholic and soak in more than you previously knew was possible from your heritage. Build on it. Stand on the shoulders of your predecessors in the faith, even proudly, as you come to something more ancient and deeper than they knew. They taught you to believe and to pray. That is a great good thing.Hi. I grew up in a small Southern Baptist church that my something-great-great-grandparents helped found. It's not really a great place for dynamic preaching or worship -- it's just my family and a few other families, sharing the love and Gospel of Christ. I love it for that, and in some way, it will always be home...
But as I've gotten older and learned things (maybe too much for my own good), I've started to have doubts and questions about a lot of things. I studied a lot of Christian history in school and Bible and theology and classical languages, and through all of that I've grown to feel a lot closer to the Early Church...... and honestly I've started to feel like it doesn't look all that much like my church today.
I know the Protestant narrative very well... that the Catholic Church was corrupt, had fallen away from the truth of the Gospel of Christ, and needed Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation to come and bring us back to the true Gospel. And I've mostly been happy with my church and my upbringing and everything, just now I am wondering...
So I'm not sure I even know how to ask the questions I'm asking... How do I approach these things? Are there answers, and how can I find them? Where do I go from here? Or do I stay put?
Good and great Christians -- So I've come to admire a lot of great people from the history of Christianity -- saints. That means they were holy people who are surely now enjoying God's glory in eternity. But my Protestant background tells me that no one is holy... But surely people go to heaven, right? Surely people can grow in sanctity and become more Christlike... I've seen that with my own eyes, and isn't that the point?
But if I admire Christians from the first dozen Christian centuries -- it turns out I'm admiring people who believed very differently than me, who believed in things like baptismal regeneration, the perpetual virginity of Mary, that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus... Does that mean they were less than Christian, for believing something beyond what's revealed in the Bible? Should I even admire them? As much as I admire them, I'm afraid these people would have told me I'm not a Christian since I don't believe those things.
My Protestant background tells me that the Catholic Church went off the rails at some point in history. When? If I accept that these great saints -- it is what I want to call them -- were true believers, despite believing different things than me, then don't I also have to accept that the faith they had was true? And that the Church that was teaching them was teaching the true faith? At the very least, that it wasn't as wholly corrupt at that time as the Protestant Reformation would have me believe it became -- to the point that breaking from it and starting over was warranted? That it must have gone off the rails sometime later? The problem is, the more people I admire, and the closer they get to 1517, the more I start to wonder if anything really could have gone off the rails very far...
(Don't even mention that I might admire Catholic saints after 1517...
This is getting long and I haven't even gotten to half the things in my head... but I'll have to put a period here and maybe post again sometime.
Just don't believe everything they say about the harlot of Babylon. Most of that is off the wall untrue.
You have discovered Saints. They are the very best part of the Catholic Church except for the sacraments. The saints are beautiful, and beauty leads to truth and more truth leads to more faith. "Duc in altum" That line from Luke 5:4 was a favorite of pope John Paul II. It means 'put out into the deep'. Go out and cast your net and see what you may catch.
The Church was never totally corrupted. Not now, not in 1517, not even when a whole eight percent of the apostles, that is Judas, betrayed Jesus for money AND most of the rest (ninety two percent) of the apostles ran and hid and even denied knowing Jesus. We muddle on, holding to the promise that God will not abandon His people to destruction. So we weather the apostasies, the firestorms, the persecutions, the infidelities and banalities and even the corruption of priests and even bishops. We do it because of Jesus. And it helps a great deal that there are admirable followers of Jesus we can find all along the way.
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Well as I've been saying, the problem is how to come to an "infallible" understanding of God's Word. How do I interpret Scripture and say I understand it "infallibly"? Isn't that just hubris, to claim a little person like me can come to the truth by myself?
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That's not what I wrote.
I was speaking of Christians thinking that what the ECFs, or even just a few of them, wrote or said is equal to the word of God (so long as it does not directly contradict the Bible).
So we wind up with the strange situation in which almost every passage in the Bible is subject to all sorts of rival interpretations that divide the denominations, but those churches that consider the ECFs to be as authoritative as the Bible never seem to allow that what THEY wrote might be understood in different ways!
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Yeah, but do you see anyone following Jesus like they did in the early church?
See, that’s the problem in trying to find a church group that is the answer to your problem in understanding God’s Word.
You have to study God’s Word on your own with the Lord. There should be no other voices programming you to believe something. In the early church it was different, they were forming the NT Scriptures. They were also not in the last days time frame mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 like we are in.
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