Hillsage

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Don't know how to use a forum's "Search" feature - is that your problem, friend?
Yes it is my problem. I'm 70 and technology is a challenge....friend. So maybe you could teach me or use "Search" yourself and share your opinion.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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Yes it is my problem. I'm 70 and technology is a challenge....friend.

Hmm... yet you're here posting on CF, so how much of a challenge can it be. Perhaps send a PM to one of the friendly Mods.
 
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Hillsage

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Yes, I am. And as you can see, since you're so techy, I've been here for 11 years compared to your verbose one month. And I have never had anyone make the request you did. So since I've been a believer longer than you've been alive, I'm going to just assume you don't have a scripture, and let it be with that. :)
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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Yes, I am. And as you can see, since you're so techy, I've been here for 11 years compared to your verbose one month. And I have never had anyone make the request you did. So since I've been a believer longer than you've been alive, I'm going to just assume you don't have a scripture, and let it be with that. :)

A believer for longer than I've been alive? Possibly, though I don't know what that has to do with anything. Bottom line is, if you want to read my stuff - you can use the "Search" feature to find it. If you're unwilling to use said feature, that's fine - but then don't claim that you want to read my stuff.
 
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BABerean2

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- However, the baptized believers in Samaria did not receive the Spirit until the Apostles laid hands on them. Acts chapter eight.

The above is the exception, rather than the rule.

Peter's words in the passage below reveal that the baptism of the Spirit normally comes at the moment of faith.
He also confirms the understanding with the words of Christ.


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

This agrees with Paul below.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Based on Romans 8:9, millions of those who have been water baptized died and went to hell, because they never came to faith and received the Spirit.

They were never "born again" of the Spirit of God, as found in John chapter 3.


However, I appreciate the challenge.
If what I say does not match up to scripture, it is wrong.

Moses also had the Spirit of God in him.


Isa_63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Jesus told Nicodemus that he was supposed to understand the above.
.
 
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Hillsage

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A believer for longer than I've been alive? Possibly, though I don't know what that has to do with anything. Bottom line is, if you want to read my stuff - you can use the "Search" feature to find it. If you're unwilling to use said feature, that's fine - but then don't claim that you want to read my stuff.
And it’s your “I don’t know “ failure to understand, which makes me think the effort of ‘finding what you’ve said’ as being ‘probably not worth my effort. :wave:
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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It's God that directs God's Church. God Godself makes a pathway for God's Word, that it may grow and bear fruit. This the Jerusalem Christians had to acknowledge. They gave glory to God in confessing. So, then, also to the Gentiles God has granted repentance unto life.

So the critics also praised God. They were satisfied, and they thanked God.

Repentance is the way to eternal life, Christians will rejoice if God grants sinners repentance unto life.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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And it’s your “I don’t know “ failure to understand, which makes me think the effort of ‘finding what you’ve said’ as being ‘probably not worth my effort. :wave:

Meh. Have a good evening.
 
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Hillsage

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The above is the exception, rather than the rule.

Peter's words in the passage below reveal that the baptism of the Spirit normally comes at the moment of faith.
He also confirms the understanding with the words of Christ.


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

This agrees with Paul below.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Based on Romans 8:9, millions of those who have been water baptized died and went to hell, because they never came to faith and received the Spirit.

They were never "born again" of the Spirit of God, as found in John chapter 3.


However, I appreciate the challenge.
If what I say does not match up to scripture, it is wrong.

Moses also had the Spirit of God in him.


Isa_63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Jesus told Nicodemus that he was supposed to understand the above.
.
I notice that your KJV translation says “holy Spirit” in both Isaiah 63 and Ephesians 1:13.... as well as in 4:30 which you didn’t use. So I have a question, what makes you think it’s referring to the Holy Spirit OF God, and not the holy Spirit of Christ FROM God in both your Isa. and Eph. quotes?

1Peter 1:10-11. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
 
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Saint Steven

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God's children are born from God. God is their God. To God alone do they owe life. Regeneration is God's work, and it's God's work alone. By their receiving this testimony concerning Christ, this change has been wrought in the Christian. So, God has made them the divine natures' partakers. Faith is wrought by God through the Word. Thus the believers have life in them.
How does that apply to infants? In what sense are they believers or partakers?
 
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Phil W

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Based on the scripture found below, the most important thing about the word "baptism" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
.
Don't you think it odd that the first scripture you kindly supplied had the word "water" in it?
Our baptism in water, for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38), is done by man, but the baptism of the Holy Ghost is done by God...if we have turned from sin. (Acts 2:38)
Most of your posted scripture refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit/Ghost.
 
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Phil W

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We need to consider the context and all the words in Luke chapter one.
The verse you cited and the context below is taken from Zechariah’s Song. (prophecy)
I think the key thing here is the introduction of "the knowledge of salvation" (verse 77) and "a baptism of repentance" (Luke 3:3) See below.

This was a new concept for those under the sacrificial system. The sins could be forgiven as a result of personal repentance (turning away) from sins. The water baptism was indeed a ceremony and outward sign of the inner reality. Believe and be baptized.

Luke 1:76-79
And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,
77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,
78 because of the tender mercy of our God,
by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
79 to shine on those living in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the path of peace.”

Luke 3:3
He went into all the country around the Jordan,
preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
The last verse you supplied says plainly that the baptism is FOR the forgiveness/remission of sins.
Without water baptism there is no forgiveness of sins.
 
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Saint Steven

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Without water baptism there is no forgiveness of sins.
Do you really believe that?
Where is the baptism in this verse?

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
 
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Phil W

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The water baptism forgiveness of sins was for the temporal consequence of sin, not the eternal consequence. If it was eternal, then there would be no reason for Jesus to die on the cross.
What's the difference?
If you have "ceased from sin" at your repentance, your sinlessness will be eternal...and there will be no more need for further baptisms or repentances.
That sounds "eternal" to me.
BTW, as per Romans 6:3-6, our water baptism also affords us entry into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
Things not available to us without His death, burial, and resurrection.

Today if you sin, you will reap what you sow temporally 'here and now'. But the eternal consequence of that sin is still under the blood of Jesus. John's baptism was an imparted righteousness baptism and not the imputed righteousness which came from the death of Jesus. Jesus was baptized by John to "fulfill righteousness", and Jesus wasn't talking about his death on a cross when he made that statement.
This is a doctrine of the falsely repentant.
It accommodates more and more sin.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:This was the scripture that provoked me to get baptized, and I thank God for it.

The water was the symbolic ritual, the repentance was spiritual substance and reality of baptism.]
To me it was reality.
My sins were washed away, and I was immersed into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection...raised with Him to walk in newness of life...literally.
 
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Phil W

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Your spirit is OSAS when it is born again....no partial rebirths. Either you are or you are not spirit saved. THEN you start working out the salvation of your soul, which is very tough to measure. That's what the judgment seat of Christ is for, where every work will be judged. Those works will be a reflection as to how saved it became. No one has a saved body that I see. All are stepping closer to the grave every day.

Your spirit is, or is not, justified/saved. Your soul is being sanctified/saved. And nobody has a g body that is glorified/saved.
Sliding scale salvation?
"How saved..."?
We are sanctified at the same time we are justified, both by the blood of Christ...applied to us at our "immersion" into Christ and into His death.
 
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Do you really believe that?
Where is the baptism in this verse?
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Mark 1:5..."And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."
Matt 3:6 says about the same thing.
Confess and be baptized, and as Rom 6:4 says..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
From that point we can walk in the light/God and be free from sin.
Thanks be to God.
 
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BABerean2

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Don't you think it odd that the first scripture you kindly supplied had the word "water" in it?
Our baptism in water, for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38), is done by man, but the baptism of the Holy Ghost is done by God...if we have turned from sin. (Acts 2:38)
Most of your posted scripture refer to the baptism of the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

No.

Because it clearly shows a contrast between the baptism performed by John the Baptist, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, through Christ.

How many of those baptized by John the Baptist never came to faith in Christ?


Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

.
 
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Saint Steven

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Mark 1:5..."And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."
Matt 3:6 says about the same thing.
Confess and be baptized, and as Rom 6:4 says..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
From that point we can walk in the light/God and be free from sin.
Thanks be to God.
Are you claiming to not know any Christians that have not been baptized?
Those you are condemning with your words.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
 
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Saint Steven

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The above is the exception, rather than the rule.
You wrote this in reference to the baptized believers in Samaria.
It's an exception because there is no rule except manmade rules.
None of these examples are the same.

- At the house of Cornelius the Spirit came on the Gentiles while Peter was still preaching. Baptism followed.
- At Pentecost the Spirit came on those 3000 believers who were water baptized. Not at the moment of faith.
- However, the baptized believers in Samaria did not receive the Spirit until the Apostles laid hands on them. Acts chapter eight. Not at the moment of faith.
- No report of any difficulties for the five thousand new believers in Acts chapter four.
- The newly baptized believers in Ephesus received the Spirit baptism when Paul (not one of the 12) laid hands on them. Not at the moment of faith.
- Ananias (not an Apostle) was sent to Saul to lay hands on him for healing and to receive the Holy Spirit. Not at the moment of faith.

The only thing we know for sure (which you deny) is that the baptism with the Spirit is a subsequent experience to salvation. Four of the six examples above were not at the moment of faith.
 
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Hillsage

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What's the difference?
If you have "ceased from sin" at your repentance, your sinlessness will be eternal...and there will be no more need for further baptisms or repentances.
I guess I don't believe in a "I repented the first time and I'm done." That 'first' repentance was for accepting the eternal forgiveness/consequences of your sins, paid for by Jesus, and not 'by me never sinning again'. All subsequent 'repentance' after initial salvation, is for the temporal consequence of sins we all still commit today. Personally, I can't even get most of the church to admit that it's possible to not sin. They all say; "Nobody was perfect but Jesus." "Nobody was sinless but Jesus." So are you saying I can add 'your name' to 'their list'....is that what I'm hearing you say?

That sounds "eternal" to me.
BTW, as per Romans 6:3-6, our water baptism also affords us entry into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.
Things not available to us without His death, burial, and resurrection.
And is all sounds like concepts which pertain to "YOU IN CHRIST" scriptures and not "CHRIST IN YOU" scriptures.

And you appear to take Rom 6:3-6 a bit more literal than it seems to support IMO.

ROM 6:3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.


This is a doctrine of the falsely repentant.
It accommodates more and more sin.
I differ. I believe it is those who are 'falsely sin free'....like James exhorts.

JAM 5:19 Brethren, if any of YOU do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Sounds to me like "Brethren sinners" and brethren helpers which deal with them in their sin, to quit. But you are an exception to this scripture??? Is that what you're saying?

To me it was reality.
My sins were washed away, and I was immersed into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection...raised with Him to walk in newness of life...literally.
As it was for me. But later I realized I only needed the 'water' for the first time repentance which was for eternal forgiveness from what Jesus did. From then on it was repentance from me for my issue of being 'eternally forgiven' but still being 'temporally weak' because my now holy Spirit of Christ is willing, but I still live in this sinful flesh body. The same kind of body Jesus spoke of at Gethsemane. Only difference is Jesus never sinned, but we did...and still do. Although I do believe perfection is attainable, unlike most of the church.
 
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