Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

ICONO'CLAST said:

What free will is that? do you have a verse on it? not a verse that says, choose, a verse that says free will.

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It’s right next to the verse that says Trinity.

ICONO'CLAST said:

What free will is that? do you have a verse on it? not a verse that says, choose, a verse that says free will.

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What’s the point of telling people to believe if there’s no free will?

BNR32FAN said:

What’s the point of telling people to believe if there’s no free will?

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Because men are commanded to repent and believe the gospel.Men make choices. that does not mean their will is free

BNR32FAN said:

It’s right next to the verse that says Trinity.

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The teaching for trinity is there. The teaching of the carnal philosophy is not in scripture in fact it is contrary to scripture.

1stcenturylady said:

So, then to understand where you are coming from, you keep the law which includes the 4th commandment, 7th day Sabbath? Friday night to Saturday night? To not keep this holy convocation, you break the whole law. And you keep them unto Christ.

But Christ has a different set of commandments that you don't seem to discern. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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how about answering post411?

ICONO'CLAST said:

Correcting someone in error,is not rude,carnal,or false...it is speaking the truth in love. For you to post that to walk in the Spirit means we are not under law is known as antinomianism that is a heretical idea.
Christians are not law less..
Paul is Not saying that God's law is sin and death.
The law is holy,just, and good.
You seem to fit 1tim1:7-8
Desiring to be teachers of the law,understanding neither what they say,nor whereof they affirm.
But we know the law is good if a man use it lawfully.
In verse 7 Paul asks...is the law sin...his answer, God forbid. Vs12 the law is holy.
Vs22...I delight in the law of God.
Vs25...I myself serve the law of God.

Put down you false teaching charismatic ideas and study the scripture.

What you highlighted in red, the law of sin and death is speaking of...the motions of sin,vs5...which were in our members. .brought forth fruit unto death...Gods law does not bring forth fruit unto death...the motions of sin does.
Jesus was a law keeper...the law of God did not produce fruit unto death in His sinless life.

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ICONO'CLAST said:

how about answering post411?

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Did you know that it is Paul that called the Law, the law of sin and death? Romans 8:2. Did you know Paul called the Law, the ministry of death? 2 Corinthians 3:7-11. And yet you say I'm in error. The law is holy. So can you tell me WHY the person of Romans 7 had such a struggle keeping it? Let's start there.

Toro said:

I understand willful sin, but we also need be mindful that not all of our brothers or sisters are at our level of understanding, so we must be cautious with our words to not be so general but to be precise in our meaning so that they will not be led astray or discouraged by our careless general words.

As was shown by Paul, he did not speak to everyone as if they were at his level of understanding. So to must we use words precisely when we talk to the general public (such as on a forum) so that a brother or sister is not discouraged but encouraged.

If we state specifically "willful sin" then it causes a new brother or sister to enquire about what is willful sin, instead of simply seeing "If you sin, you are doomed."

We all must be careful with the words we choose or assuming that all have the same light and understanding that we ourselves have been given.

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Willful sin is a sin you do on purpose when you KNOW better. It is a sin unto death. 1 John 5:16-17. It is rebellion against God. The sins called trespasses are not known to us and are unintentional. Leviticus 5:15 Those are sins not unto death.

BNR32FAN said:

I think the goats were possibly people who believed but yet Christ was not in them. Their actions did not reflect His teachings.

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How does that work?


They “believed”, and therefore were “believers”, but Christ was not in them?

You are either a believer or an unbeliever.

Your in Christ or your not in Christ.


These were those who were mentioned in John 15:6.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


They were “in Christ” but did not remain “in Christ”, which means they violated 1 John 3:24.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

ICONO'CLAST said:

What free will is that? do you have a verse on it? not a verse that says, choose, a verse that says free will.

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Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


Two choices are listed here:

1. Sow to the Spirit
2. Sow to the flesh

Where does a man’s right to choose come from ?

His will?
His mind?
His emotions?


Show me from the scriptures where God forces a person to sin or to obey Him.



JLB

BNR32FAN said:

But the question still remains why would this message be important to those who are chosen by God if they cannot fail to abide and why would it be important to those not chosen by God if they are incapable of abiding regardless of their efforts? Why give a command if they are powerless to to obey or disobey? This message wouldn’t be beneficial to anyone.

If the 11 faithful apostles are chosen by God why would Jesus say to them

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is a strong indication that it is possible for them to fail to abide in Him. Notice He gives no assurance that they will automatically abide in Him because they are chosen by God.

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Good question...No one knows if he or she is saved unless "the Spirit of the Son of God" comes into their heart (This is according to God's own timing )..Romans 8:23, Philippians 3:12..Paul talks about the need of still growing to reach that goal...

So, God knew (According to His foreknowledge ) they (11Apostles) are going to be save.. but not them (not yet!!) If they knew that they are saved they will accept the fact that Jesus has to die, they will believe the message of Jesus resurrection from the women,and also do the works Jesus did (raise the dead, heal the blind etc)..

But as they grow in their knowledge of God and the Son, so are their confidence and assurance in their salvation (abide more or less in Christ ) this is faith...

Again a branch cannot grow or remain attached to the tree (body) unless it receive norishing sap (from root etc) for it to grow and abide stronger...So also we cannot grow in Christ unless the Spirit comes in to us through Faith...
So just as the branch rely on the nourishing sap from root to remain attached to the tree so we must rely on the Spirit to make us attached to Christ through our Faith..
Again is God who is doing the abiding, provision of norishing sap for growth etc..

1stcenturylady said:

Willful sin is a sin you do on purpose when you KNOW better. It is a sin unto death. 1 John 5:16-17. It is rebellion against God. The sins called trespasses are not known to us and are unintentional. Leviticus 5:15 Those are sins not unto death.

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I heard you at post 177. I'm not sure why you feel the need to quote me again almost a week later, but I'm not going to argue with someone that doesnt even read my post.

JLB777 said:

How does that work?


They “believed”, and therefore were “believers”, but Christ was not in them?

You are either a believer or an unbeliever.

Your in Christ or your not in Christ.


These were those who were mentioned in John 15:6.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


They were “in Christ” but did not remain “in Christ”, which means they violated 1 John 3:24.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

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Did Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles believe? We’re they not chosen by God? Why doe He tell them to remain in Him? Didn’t Jesus say in John 15:2 say The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit? Didn’t He also say in verse 7 IF you remain in me and My words remain in you ask whatever you wish and it will be done? And didn’t He also say in verse 10 IF you keep My commandments you will remain in my love? I’m verse 14 did He say you are my friends IF you do what I command you? Who is “you” in all these verses? Did they believe? Are they somehow exempt from verse 6 that says if anyone does not abide in Me they are thrown away to wither then they are gathered and thrown into the fire to be burned? Ya know, Hebrews 6:4-6 talks about believers who received the Holy Spirit also.

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
‭‭HEBREWS‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

pasifika said:

Good question...No one knows if he or she is saved unless "the Spirit of the Son of God" comes into their heart (This is according to God's own timing )..Romans 8:23, Philippians 3:12..Paul talks about the need of still growing to reach that goal...

So, God knew (According to His foreknowledge ) they (11Apostles) are going to be save.. but not them (not yet!!) If they knew that they are saved they will accept the fact that Jesus has to die, they will believe the message of Jesus resurrection from the women,and also do the works Jesus did (raise the dead, heal the blind etc)..

But as they grow in their knowledge of God and the Son, so are their confidence and assurance in their salvation (abide more or less in Christ ) this is faith...

Again a branch cannot grow or remain attached to the tree (body) unless it receive norishing sap (from root etc) for it to grow and abide stronger...So also we cannot grow in Christ unless the Spirit comes in to us through Faith...
So just as the branch rely on the nourishing sap from root to remain attached to the tree so we must rely on the Spirit to make us attached to Christ through our Faith..
Again is God who is doing the abiding, provision of norishing sap for growth etc..

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Just because someone received the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean they are automatically saved. The Spirit guides us but we must be willing to adhere to His guidance otherwise we are no better than those who do not have the Holy Spirit.

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
‭‭HEBREWS‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Toro said:

I heard you at post 177. I'm not sure why you feel the need to quote me again almost a week later, but I'm not going to argue with someone that doesnt even read my post.

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Sorry, for some reason my computer pulled up that post as if I never posted it, so I just hit post reply again to get rid of the glitch.

Toro said:

I disagree with this comment on the surface of it alone.

We are all sinners and none will be perfect until the flesh is stripped away and a believer is free of the flesh. I do agree that sin IS the issue, but there is far more to salvation than simply yes or no that we as humans only have part of the picture.

I do agree sin needs to be dealt with and that one SHOULD desire and push to overcome sin, but to say if one sins they are not saved can be discouraging to one that is pursuing a sinless nature but stumbles into a sin in which they need encouragement, not condemnation and warning. Due to that, such a broad statement can be dangerous if it causes a true brother or sister to stumble.

We ALL have our moments of stumbling no matter where we are in our pursuit of Christ we just struggle with different sins at different levels.

It's not that if we sin we are not saved, but if our attitude towards sin has not changed then one is not likely saved.

There is a difference between stumbling into sin and living in sin. One wants to be free of sin, the other excuses sin, calling it acceptable or "good".

Salvation is not by lack of sin but ones attitude towards sin. We do not wake up the day after coming to Christ made perfect. We are born again, and in being as such, we become as a baby and our growth in Christ takes time, it's a journey that is not complete until we are no longer held back by the flesh.

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Hey, Toro,

You said I didn't answer your post. I'm sorry if I didn't. I don't remember. Please read this post to the end as there may be some things you've heard me say, but there may be some things you haven't. I've posted so many posts to ones like yours where out of the two definitions of "flesh" some people only think of one, that we won't be free of sin until after we die and our bodies are immortalized. The flesh that Paul is talking about in Romans 8:9 is our carnal nature. Paul shows us a few verses before: "7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 John 3:4 shows us that sin is lawlessness. That is one type of sin. And 1 John 5:16-17 shows us that is the sin unto death. You can't commit a sin of lawlessness without knowing your are doing it, so that is rebellion against God. The rest of 1 John 3 shows that a Christian filled with the seed of the Father (vs. 9) which is the Holy Spirit, cannot commit this type of rebellion against God. In the Old Testament there was no sacrifice if someone committed a sin against the law of God, the Ten Commandments. None! They killed them. IOW a sin unto death.

But also in 1 John 5:16-17 there is another type of sin that is not unto death. Those are called "trespasses." Even if you are walking in the Spirit, one may commit trespasses, so no one is completely sinless of committing some type of sin, because trespasses are also called "sin." In Leviticus 5:15 we see that trespasses are UNWITTINGLY committed. They are unintentional. And in Numbers 15:22-29 we see there IS a sacrifice for unintentional sin. And then in Numbers 15:30-36 we see the sin unto death - the willful sin of lawlessness. No sacrifice - death.

1 John 1:7 shows us a person who is walking in the light/Spirit, and the blood of Jesus is cleansing their sins. Seeing as that is not sins unto death that the Spirit would never lead you into, those have to be trespasses, unintentionally committed. But there is a catch. In the Lord's Prayer it says "and forgive us our trespasses, AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US." We must forgive others to be forgiven.

BNR32FAN said:

Did Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles believe? We’re they not chosen by God? Why doe He tell them to remain in Him? Didn’t Jesus say in John 15:2 say The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit? Didn’t He also say in verse 7 IF you remain in me and My words remain in you ask whatever you wish and it will be done? And didn’t He also say in verse 10 IF you keep My commandments you will remain in my love? I’m verse 14 did He say you are my friends IF you do what I command you? Who is “you” in all these verses? Did they believe? Are they somehow exempt from verse 6 that says if anyone does not abide in Me they are thrown away to wither then they are gathered and thrown into the fire to be burned? Ya know, Hebrews 6:4-6 talks about believers who received the Holy Spirit also.

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
‭‭HEBREWS‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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All of which involves the Lord being “in them”.


Believers are those who are in Christ, and therefore Christ is in them.




JLB

JLB777 said:

All of which involves the Lord being “in them”.


Believers are those who are in Christ, and therefore Christ is in them.




JLB

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You didn’t answer the questions friend. We’re Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles believers and why did He tell them to remain in Him if they are incapable of not remaining in Him?

BNR32FAN said:

You didn’t answer the questions friend. We’re Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles believers and why did He tell them to remain in Him if they are incapable of not remaining in Him?

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You seem to think I am teaching OSAS.

Couldn’t be further from the truth.

I’m saying born again Christians must remain in Christ, or be cast into the fire and burned.


Here is how we are instructed to abide or remain in Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB

BNR32FAN said:

What’s the point of telling people to believe if there’s no free will?

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Simple, then you get to gloat over their imperfections while pretending you are a s pure as the driven snow, and maybe get some cash if possible from the guilt trip for your 'holy' church?

JLB777 said:

You seem to think I am teaching OSAS.

Couldn’t be further from the truth.

I’m saying born again Christians must remain in Christ, or be cast into the fire and burned.


Here is how we are instructed to abide or remain in Him.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



JLB

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The commandments of Jesus are not grievous. His yolk is easy and HIS burden is light. To transgress those few commandments would also be to transgress the law. That does not mean we keep the law but that by keeping His commandments the law is of no effect on us any more, we are free of the law. His commandments are to believe in Him and love each other and God basically. The law of love. Now if someone is not loving the brethren we can tell they really are not of God. (at least not saved yet). 1 John was about this love.


Verse 6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.

From what John had already stated in 1 John 1, we know that he had no intention here of contradicting himself with any teaching to the effect any one having committed sin was in no sense a Christian. Many of the scholars assure us, based upon the Greek verbs used here, that "sinneth" in this context means "leads a life of sin."

1 John - Chapter 3 - Coffman's Commentary of the New Testament on StudyLight.org

So what we are really talking about here is not having God's love in us. (when we get saved we have Him in us and He IS love) Without it, we live in sin and are not of Him.

Here is a quote from focus on the family trying to address the issue

"
This is an important point. Why? Because if every sin is a willful sin, it doesn't make any sense to say that "willful sin" causes us to lose our salvation. The apostle John says something quite different: "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:7-9). Again, it's a day-by-day, moment-by-moment process.

What about Hebrews 10:26-31? This is probably the passage your friend had in mind when he said that God will "reject" those who go on sinning willfully. There are many believers who share his point of view. But we'd suggest that it's possible to look at this portion of Scripture from a different angle. As we see it, there's good reason to suppose that the "willful sin" of verse 26 is the same as the "unpardonable sin" that Jesus mentions in Matthew 12:31. To be specific, it's the sin of rejecting Christ altogether (otherwise known as "the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit").

We could also call this the sin of persistent self-hardening. It's the process by which an individual sears his conscience and stiffens his neck against God. If it goes on long enough, the person eventually reaches the point where genuine repentance is an impossibility. The fact that you're wrestling with doubts and fears about your standing with God leads us to suppose that you cannot be guilty of this sin. If you were, you wouldn't be concerned about it.

If our assumptions are correct, it's possible to argue that Hebrews 10:26-31 doesn't refer to struggling Christians like yourself at all. This passage may be aimed at hardened, bitter people who only seem to be Christians.

Look at it this way. If an individual insists on living an unchristian life even after "receiving the knowledge of the truth," we might be led to suspect that he never really accepted Christ in the first place. If he willfully persists in committing the same sin over and over again without remorse and without showing any evidence of a genuine desire to change, we would have every reason to doubt the sincerity of his faith. Such a person is like the demons mentioned in James 2:19: they "believe" the truth but refuse to grant it their personal allegiance. In a case like this, it is absolutely true to say that "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," since Jesus Himself is that sacrifice. "But we are confident of better things concerning you" (Hebrews 6:9)."

Willful Sin After Salvation and Eternal Security