Dispensationalism Refuted

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jgr

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But it does.
However, I do realize that the concept of people being having a traceable line of descent from Jacob and his 12 sons, is difficult for some to comprehend.
It isn't given to us to know our ancestors that far back, but we are assured that God knows them. Amos 9:9 is proof positive.

The other proof is how those people will be Redeemed, Restored and Resettled into their own Land. The wording of most of the prophesies make it quite clear that they are people that God knew, that He exiled for a set, decreed time for their sins, Ezekiel 4:4, then He would forgive their iniquities and they would be His people again.
Aliens would join them, as they always have done. Isaiah 56:1-8
Scriptures like that show the obvious fact that there are a people who God watches over; that He sent Jesus to save, Matthew 15:24, THEY will listen to the Gospel and trusting in God, become faithful Christians. Just as we are today!

God honored and blessed both pedigreed and non-pedigreed (alien) Israelites of faith and obedience.

God judged and punished both pedigreed and non-pedigreed (alien) Israelites of unfaithfulness and disobedience.

Which group were the "people who God watches over"?
 
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claninja

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But is it too hard for you to agree that the majority of the people who do come in faith to Christ, are actual Israelites?

considering the math on the present day ubiquity of Abraham's DNA? no it's not too hard for me to agree. My family just did one of those DNA tests. Turns out we have jewish DNA. But we should never rely on DNA for God can turn stones into sons of abraham.

Matthew 3:9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

And not everyone who has the DNA of Abraham are his children.

Romans 9:6-7 It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children.

God told Abraham that it would be thru Isaac's line that his name would be perpetuated. Genesis 21:12

I agree

Paul said that at the conversion of some Gentiles in Antioch, who quite probably were from the 10 Tribes, as they were the start of the great move of Christianity, now throughout the world.
The Jewish people did not and do not accept Jesus, so they will be thrown out of the Kingdom. Matthew 8:11

It's definitely possible that some gentiles had been from some the 10 northern tribes, but it doesn't really matter through the new covenant, as race, tribe, or nationality no longer matter.

Colossians 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,e free; but Christ is all, and in all.

The important thing to note is that the believing Jews have david's fallen tent as restored in the 1st century. They know this because it must be rebuilt in order for the gentiles to receive the gospel, and the gentiles were receiving the gospel.

Notice the greek, it says David's fallen tent is rebuilt and restored SO THAT the remnant of men may seek the Lord and all the gentiles who bear my name.


Acts 15:14-17 Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:‘After this I will return and rebuild the fallen tent of David. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear My name,
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Ephraim still existed when God divorced them and scattered them, but outside of the mosaic covenant, Ephraim was considered desolate and barren, with no offspring, even though the literal offspring of the 10 northern tribes still existed.

Thus it is only under the new covenant through Jesus that offspring are considered. and ALL those who are in Christ are one, not two peoples as you seem to promote.

The children are Ephraim’s in Isaiah 54 and considered the seed who inherit the gentiles and, in that way, ethnic Israel and the gentiles are made one. This is the proper interpretation and Paul concurs.

For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'" Acts 13:47​

The pronouns us refers to Israel/Ephraim (Romans 11:1) but in the original quote from Isaiah 49:6 the pronoun you, singular, refers to Christ, the Servant. Paul, through progressive revelation, supplanted a plural where a singular was expressed, which substantiates both are appropriate from a theological interpretation. Christ is synonymous with the nation Israel (Isaiah 49:3). This corroborates British Israelism or the two-house theological (THT) interpretation of Isaiah 54:3. Certainly, the pronoun us in Acts 13:47 cannot represent the gentiles, as the event is when the apostles turn to the gentiles, and we cannot have the gentiles turning to the gentiles.

Furthermore, there are a number of supersessionists that agree with THT.

Isaiah 54… 3. break forth—rather, "burst forth" with increase; thy offspring shall grow, answering to "thy seed" in the parallel clause. thy seed—Israel and her children, as distinguished from "the Gentiles." Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary (added emphasis)

Isaiah 54… 3. Thy seed; either, 1. Thy spiritual seed, the church of the new testament, which is accounted Abraham’s seed, or children, Galatians 3:7-9,29. Or,
2. Thy natural seed, Christ and his apostles, and other ministers, who were Jews, by whom this work was first and most eminently done. Matthew Poole's Commentary (emphasis added)

Isaiah 54… 3. Thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles. The Christian Church is viewed as a continuation of the Jewish Church; and the conversion of nation after nation to the gospel is regarded as the extension of Jewish dominion over fresh lands. The cities of these lands - desolate hitherto, i.e. without godly inhabitants - will under these circumstances come to be inhabited; i.e. will be peopled by faithful men. Pulpit Commentary (emphasis added)

Isaiah 54… 3. And thy seed — Thy spiritual seed, the members of the New Testament church, and especially the apostles and other ministers of Christ; shall inherit the Gentiles. Benson Commentary (emphasis added)​

In all cases, these supersessionists interpret the term “seed” as plural and not singular, in contradiction with your approach. None of them see the seed as, the singular, Christ inheriting the gentiles. Jamieson-Fausset-Brown hit the nail on the head while the others read the church back into the OT text, like Poole’s Commentary, but are compelled to interpret the “seed” as the “Jewish church” inherits the gentiles and becomes a company of Christian nations, falling short of Jamieson-Fausset-Brown’s proper interpretation. And while it is the church, it is specifically the nation Ephraim that becomes Zion when they are restored to their covenant relationship with God through the body of Christ, in fulfillment of Zechariah 10:8 and Hosea 2:23.

Types and antitypes. The type is reading through the OT with the understanding of the mosaic covenant and how the promises of the mosaic covenant relate to the future. The antitype is reading through the OT with the understanding of the new covenant and how the promises of the old covenant are revealed through Christ to those of the new covenant. That the mosaic covenant was merely a shadow.

Dr. Geoffrey Grogan, in a thesis on the relationship between prophecy and typology, stated,

In prophecy, prediction and fulfilment are identical; they relate to the same person, the same event. In type, however, there is similarity, not identity. (Dr. Geoffrey Grogan, The Relationship Between Prophecy and Typology) https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/sbet/04-1_005.pdf

Your comments obviously fail to conform to this difference. It was not beyond the vision of the prophet’s understanding that God’s people where substantively the temple and not the literal stones and mortar. Paul merely states the obvious as the temple of stone was to be destroyed, as Christ forewarned them. That does not preclude a material temple in the age to come, fulfilling Ezekiel in the identical sense. The same can be stated concerning David’s tabernacle. But Hosea 2:23 is prophecy and not typology, as Peter made it clear his epistle was to the elect exiles of the dispersion; that is not the gentiles.

So, when Christ inherits the gentiles, Christ being the being synonymous with the nation Israel (Isaiah 49:3), so does Ephraim/Israel, according to Acts 13:47 and many other texts in the scriptures, which is what I previously stated.
 
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ebedmelech

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Ebed, or whomever I address, your comments are rife with conflict. You cannot help but augment your comment that only Christ is “the Israel of God” and all who come to him, with the comment “A remnant of Israel has been being saved since Christ ascended, and that will continue until the last day.” (emphasis added) Your comments actually substantiate that God applies the term “Israel” to both Christ and the elect descendants of Jacob/Israel, and not to the exclusion of one for the other! I agree.
I augment or support my comments on the basis of scripture, just as you do Jerry. The point comes down to which argument does scripture support?

You read my comment and incorrectly stated I said that only Christ is “the Israel of God”. What I actually said is that “Christ is Israel from His birth”, which is a big difference, and exactly what Isaiah 49 is saying at vss 1-6. It declares Christ TO BE Israel...NOT the Israel of God. The "Israel of God" is every believer in Christ! Perhaps you should read it again. You probably don't even recognize how that is true.

Furthermore, your comments actually agree with my perception of Romans 9; a remnant of the biological descendants of Jacob are “the true Israel of God” and it was to these descendants to whom the promises to Abraham pertained, as opposed to those, in a manner of speaking, according to the flesh represented the reprobates that dwelt with them: For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel (Romans 9:6 ESV). Isaiah 49 also substantiates this if you read further.
Try and reconcile this with what Paul stated in Romans 4, where his ENTIRE argument is that “ALL who have the faith of Abraham are true descendants”, and this is because God’s promise to Abraham was BEFORE he was circumcised.

What you don’t get in this, is that as the promise was before Abraham was circumcised. Therefore that promise does not distinguish based on ethnicity…BUT strictly on the basis of individual faith, which is and always has been the gift of God to ALL who believe!

And now the LORD says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him--- for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength---he says: "It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth." Isaiah 49:5-6 ESV

God declared that “raising the tribes of Jacob” as too easy a task for Christ the Servant and tasks him further to save the elect gentiles, which substantiates, one, these tasks are conflated and, two, they commenced with the first advent just as you conceded and, three, the tribes of Jacob are the literal descendants of the patriarch Jacob, as they are discerned from the nations/gentiles. This agrees with Romans 11.

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew…. So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace…. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:1-2, 5, 29​
I’m not sure how you get to your point here if you follow scripture. The first problem is not reconciling scripture with scripture…for if one takes your view, they must discard John’s introduction of Jesus at John 1:9:13, which clearly states Jesus came to “His own” ("His own" were Israel according to the Old Covenant).

John then states that “But to ALL who did receive Him…He gave the right to become the children of God." Now…if you will Jerry, please notice how John now makes clear there is no distinctions as John 1:13 states "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Do you notice that verse excludes anything to do with race ,or gender, or ethnicity, or anything else except the will of God? Do you see that God has declared them CHILDREN OF GOD? Where's the distinction? Scripture simply doesn’t embrace your thinking on this!!!

According to Isaiah 49 and Amos 9, the sifting of Israel began with Christ’s first advent.

Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the surface of the ground, except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,"declares the LORD. "For behold, I will command, and shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve, but no pebble shall fall to the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, 'Disaster shall not overtake or meet us.' Amos 9:8-10​

The sifting is a salvific phenomenon that separates the elect of Israel from those, in a manner of speaking, according to the flesh represented the reprobate that dwell with them. This is what was prophesied for this age and not the kingdom of David, the latter being the perception of this age by supersessionism. This is also corroborated by the prophecy of Zechariah 10-11, which I’ve been expositing upon. The biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still God’s covenant people to which the gentiles are made co-heirs in this age, in fulfillment of Isaiah 49 and other texts in the book. We also learn that these “tribes of Jacob” are equated to Zion in Isaiah 49.

But Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me, And the Lord has forgotten me"…. "Then you will say in your heart, 'Who has begotten these for me, Since I have been bereaved of my children And am barren, an exile and a wanderer? And who has reared these? Behold, I was left alone; From where did these come?'" Isaiah 49:14, 21 ESV​

This barren and exiled Zion is unveiled in Isaiah 54:1 as Ephraim/Israel, similarly personified as the barren and desolate woman. Any further substantive analysis bears out that Ephraim is viewed by God as the “nation” that bears the fruit of the vineyard, the fruit being the gentiles, in Matthew 21:43. While all are one in Christ, God views Zion/Ephraim/Israel (as opposed to Judah) as bearing the children of God in this age.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24 ESV​

Point being, supersessionism undermines prophecy and does not serve the true search for the proper interpretation of the Old and New Testaments. This is apparent from your comment: “Israel, who were formerly God's chosen under the Old Covenant, no longer are.”
This is a totally erroneous view Jerry. A view which Paul has destroyed in Romans 9:19-33 using the prophecies of Hosea and Isaiah…OR…do you totally discount them? I don’t quote them here to not make a long post…but I hope you, as well those following this debate will read the passage, seeing how Paul destroys your version of this…especially in Paul’s summation, which makes my point!

Again, Peter addressed the elect exiles of the dispersion (1 Peter 1:1) and cited from Hosea 2:23 in 1 Peter 2:10, which is indisputably about the tribes of Jacob, specifically Ephraim/Israel. The elect of Israel are merely being sifted in this age and preparing them and the gentiles who are joined to them to rule in the next.

For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah. Psalms 47:2-4​

Do you understand "the dispersion" Peter is speaking of? You are hard pressed to prove your assertion!

Peter knows…because he says these “exiles” are “scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia”. Now…Peter certainly doesn’t say they are Jews, does he? No! These exiles are those who are “CHOSEN”, and as 1 Peter 1:2 says “are according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood”

These are certainly not exclusively Jews Jerry…and you are hard pressed to say they are because of what Peter learned long beforehand in taking the Gospel to Cornelious in Acts 10. He declared what taught him to eliminate any distinction between Jews or Gentiles. Peter even states as much out of his own mouth at Acts 10:34:
34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.


Peter is speaking of ALL believers regardless of their race or ethnicity Jerry…and the dispersion is that of the persecution of believers coming out of Paul and Barnabus’ journeys throughout that area…not of the scattering of the Jewish dispersion.

Scripture simply doesn't support your view. My siggy even proves my point. In Philippians 3:2,3:

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,


Here, the "false circumcision" are Jews who follow the Old Covenant...the "true circumcision" are every believer in Christ no matter who they are. The word "circumcision" is simply a slang for Jews...and Paul here is asserting believers to spiritually be "true Jews".
 
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claninja

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The children are Ephraim’s in Isaiah 54

Under the new covenant only. For offspring of Ephraim existed for the 700 years from the time of Assyrian exile until Christ, but they were not considered offspring. Ephraim had been considered barren for 700 years, despite literal biological descendants of the 10 northern tribes existing.

Paul has Isaiah 54:1 with those who are under the new covenant.


Galatians 4:26-27 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.”

Can children be counted outside of Christ?

For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'" Acts 13:47
The pronouns us refers to Israel/Ephraim (Romans 11:1)

I agree it points to Israel. Paul from the tribe of Benjamin, not Ephraim, includes himself in the "us" to bring light to the gentiles.

Additionally, can gentiles who have become one with Christ, bring the light to the gentiles who do not yet believe or no?



but in the original quote from Isaiah 49:6 the pronoun you, singular, refers to Christ, the Servant.

I agree, Jesus confirms he is the light. he is the light of the world that suffered to present the light not only to those of Israel but to the gentiles.

John 8:12 Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Acts 26:23 that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles.”

By being one with Christ, the Jews brought the gospel to the gentiles, but it is not the Jews who grow the gentiles, it is God.

1 Corinthians 3:7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.

And thus it is Christ, who is God, who inherits the nations.

Psalm 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!

With his body being co-heirs.

Romans 8:17 And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Paul, through progressive revelation, supplanted a plural where a singular was expressed, which substantiates both are appropriate from a theological interpretation.

Through the mystery of marriage it is revealed thatChrist and the church are one. Thus, the mystery of the singular, yet plural, is revealed.

Ephesians 5:31-32 and the two will become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church

We cannot separate the head from the body. The only reason the plural have light is because they belong to the source of light, Christ, the head of the body.


Christ is synonymous with the nation Israel (Isaiah 49:3).

I agree

Matthew 2:15 This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

This corroborates British Israelism or the two-house theological (THT) interpretation of Isaiah 54:3.

Being one in Christ and regarded as Abraham's seed and heirs, regardless of race, nationality , or tribe surmounts THT.

In all cases, these supersessionists interpret the term “seed” as plural and not singular, in contradiction with your approach.

Incorrect, they do not contradict my approach.

My approach has always been that the seed is singular (Christ, the head) and yet plural (his body), for they are one as a husband and wife are one. Thus, through the head (Jesus) and body (church) bringing the light (gospel) to the nations, Christ inherits the nations and his body co-heirs.

Christ is the heir of the nations, as he is the heir of all things.

Psalm 2:7-8 will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

It is revealed that those who are in Christ are one with Christ, as a husband and wife are one flesh
Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all.


Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church

And therefore those in Christ are co-heirs with him.
Romans 8:17 And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

***The spiritual seed cannot inherit without Christ, do you agree?

None of them see the seed as, the singular, Christ inheriting the gentiles

This seems to be an assumption on your part that they don't believe the singular (Christ) and his body (spiritual seed) are one flesh. If you can show that is what they believe then I can concede to your argument.

Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.


It was not beyond the vision of the prophet’s understanding that God’s people where substantively the temple and not the literal stones and mortar.

I disagree
John 2:18-22 So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

That does not preclude a material temple in the age to come, fulfilling Ezekiel in the identical sense.

Can you provide 1 NT scripture that states a literal brick and mortar temple will be built for God's people to worship in again to confirm your interpretation is correct?

The same can be stated concerning David’s tabernacle.

NT scripture disagrees with your interpretation. James states the gentiles are receiving the gospel. Then he quotes Amos 9 as being fulfilled. Amos 9 states that the tent of David is restored SO THAT the remnant may seek the Lord and the gentiles. Thus the tent of David must be rebuilt before the gentiles can become God's people. In other words, if the gentiles are now God's people, then the tent of David is restored.

Acts 15:14-17 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,“‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins,and I will restore it,that the remnantb of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,

But Hosea 2:23 is prophecy and not typology, as Peter made it clear his epistle was to the elect exiles of the dispersion; that is not the gentiles.

And Paul has it fulfilled with the gentiles coming into the body of Christ.

Romans 9:24-25 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

So How do we reconcile the fulfillment with Paul applying it to the gentiles and Peter applying to the elect exiles, who could possibly be referring to the 10 northern tribes. ?

My argument is that through 700 years of Assyrian exile, many from Ephraim mixed with other nations culturally, socially, genetically, and religiously. Along with this Ephraim was divorced from God becoming no longer "my people". So By God calling the gentiles, whether they descended from Ephraim or not, he fulfills his promise to the 10 northern tribes to be his people under Christ.


So, when Christ inherits the gentiles, Christ being the being synonymous with the nation Israel (Isaiah 49:3), so does Ephraim/Israel, according to Acts 13:47 and many other texts in the scriptures, which is what I previously stated.

Which is almost the exact same thing I stated, just swap out "Ephraim" with the body of Christ
 
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Jerryhuerta

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I augment or support my comments on the basis of scripture, just as you do Jerry. The point comes down to which argument does scripture support?
You read my comment and incorrectly stated I said that only Christ is “the Israel of God”. What I actually said is that “Christ is Israel from His birth”, which is a big difference, and exactly what Isaiah 49 is saying at vss 1-6. It declares Christ TO BE Israel...NOT the Israel of God. The "Israel of God" is every believer in Christ! Perhaps you should read it again. You probably do even recognize how that is true.

Did you or did you not declare:

“I'm not...nor would I ever assert that God is done with Israel according to the flesh. That is clear throughout scripture…. A remnant of Israel has been being saved since Christ ascended, and that will continue until the last day, as they of Israel who become saved, are elect as every believer is Jerry.”​

You unequivocally substantiated through your own declaration there is a remnant of biological descendants that are just as much “the Israel of God” as Christ: Many are called but few are chosen. Furthermore, before they were born, this Israel was known by God from the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:10-12). Acts 13:47 also substantiates my perception.

For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'" Acts 13:47​

The pronouns us refers to Israel/Ephraim (Romans 11:1) but in the original quote from Isaiah 49:6 the pronoun you, singular, refers to Christ, the Servant. Paul, through progressive revelation, supplanted a plural where a singular was expressed, which substantiates both are appropriate from a theological interpretation. Christ is synonymous with the nation Israel (Isaiah 49:3). Certainly, the pronoun us in Acts 13:47 cannot represent the gentiles, as the event is when the apostles/Israel turn to the gentiles, and we cannot have the gentiles turning to the gentiles.

Try and reconcile this with what Paul stated in Romans 4, where his ENTIRE argument is that “ALL who have the faith of Abraham are true descendants”, and this is because God’s promise to Abraham was BEFORE he was circumcised.

What you don’t get in this, is that as the promise was before Abraham was circumcised. Therefore that promise does not distinguish based on ethnicity…BUT strictly on the basis of individual faith, which is and always has been the gift of God to ALL who believe!

True, it is by faith that the children of the promise are counted, but that does not preclude differing callings for individuals or peoples. What supersessionism is blind to is Israel’s missionary calling to gather the gentiles in the fulfillment that through Abraham the families of the earth shall be blessed (Genesis 12:3).

After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go. And he said to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. Luke 10:1-2​

While the salivation went to the Gentiles because of Christ, Christ used Israel as the labors to this end according to scripture, like Acts 13:47 and the book of Isaiah.

But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine…. All the nations gather together, and the peoples assemble. Who among them can declare this, and show us the former things? Let them bring their witnesses to prove them right, and let them hear and say, It is true. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:1, 9-10​

Awake, awake, put on your strength, O Zion; put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city; for there shall no more come into you the uncircumcised and the unclean…. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, "Your God reigns." Isaiah 52:1, 7​

Romans 4 does not preclude the remnant of Israel’s mission to the gentiles, as specifically Ephraim as the nation that bears the fruit in Matthew 21:43.

I’m not sure how you get to your point here if you follow scripture. The first problem is not reconciling scripture with scripture…for if one takes your view, they must discard John’s introduction of Jesus at John 1:9:13, which clearly states Jesus came to “His own” ("His own" were Israel according to the Old Covenant).

Obviously, you maintain that Christ is the Servant given the title Israel in Isaiah 49:3, but fail to dig deeper that he is abhorred by a nation in verse 8, which can only be Judah, which was Christ’s people and fulfills John 1:11. But you refuse to note that “raising the tribes of Jacob” as too easy a task for Christ the Servant and tasks him further to save the elect gentiles, which substantiates, one, these tasks are conflated and, two, they commenced with the first advent just as you conceded and, three, the tribes of Jacob are the literal descendants of the patriarch Jacob, as they are discerned from the nations/gentiles. The only reconciliation for John 1:11 is THT’s exegesis of Matthew 21:43 that the management of the kingdom of God was taken from Judah and given to Ephraim/Israel. I’m not going to let you side-step your concession or the implications of “all” of Isaiah 49.

And this goes to the heart of your misconception of Peter’s epistles. The gentiles were not exiles or were they dispersed as Ephraim in the first century. This is supported by the first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who observed that the ten tribes were “beyond Euphrates till now”and were as “an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 11.133)
 
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Jerryhuerta

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I agree it points to Israel. Paul from the tribe of Benjamin, not Ephraim, includes himself in the "us" to bring light to the gentiles.

Additionally, can gentiles who have become one with Christ, bring the light to the gentiles who do not yet believe or no?

You’re merely attempting obfuscate the ramifications that Acts 13:47 proves Christ is synonymous with the chosen/elect nation Israel (which you concede) and so Isaiah 49:6 and Acts 13:47 proves the nation Israel is also a light to the gentiles through the Servant Christ, which substantiates that the kingdom of heaven was never taken from Israel in Matthew 21:43; it was merely taken from Judah and given to Ephraim/Israel. Peter substantiates this in 1 Peter 2:9-10, citing directly from Hosea 2:23 to vindicate Ephraim finds grace in the wilderness at that time, as God’s firstborn in Jeremiah 31:1-3, 9 and in the very chapter of Jeremiah where the New Covenant is promised.

Furthermore, you’re merely trying to obfuscate the ramifications from a number of highly respected supersessionists who vindicate the “seed” in Isaiah 54:3 represents Israel (or the Jewish church in their parlance) who inherits the gentiles and populates Israel’s desolate cities, which were in the wilderness at that time, in agreement with Jeremiah 31:1-3, 9 and Hosea 2:14-23. And this also vindicates that Ephraim becomes a company of nations in this age and not the past.

Moreover, you’ve agreed to all of this unwittingly when I showed you (and you agreed) that Ephraim is gathered in Christ at the first advent and then sown throughout the world to worship God in truth in Zechariah 10:8-9, fulfilling Christ’s ordination that Jerusalem would no longer be the center of the worship of God in John 4:21-24. In John Christ also states that salvation is from the Jews, in agreement that the kingdom of heaven was never taken from Israel in Matthew 21:43; it was merely taken from Judah and given to Ephraim/Israel. Zechariah 10:7-10 is part of the puzzle that vindicates the nation Israel/Ephraim is given a missionary task to send salvation to the gentiles in this age, as opposed to the supersessionist misrepresentation the kingdom is taken from Israel in Matthew 21:43 and given to the gentile church. THT fits all the pieces of the puzzle together of divine providence that were mixed throughout the Old and New Testaments, while supersessionism tries to force the pieces into place.

As to the understanding that it was not beyond the vision of the prophet’s understanding that God’s people where substantively the temple and not the literal stones and mortar, why cite from those who were ordained to reject the cornerstone? And your perception that the NT negates the OT is classic RT. What else can one garner from your challenge to produce NT vindication that Ezekiel’s temple will be built in the age to come? THT holds what Paul states.

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16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,​
 
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Israel as a nation failed the purpose that they were chosen for, to spread the Gospel

Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

When the Jewish nation rejected the Messiah, the Gospel was spread to all nations. All who believe in the name of Jesus can now become the spiritual descendants of Abraham (Galatians 3:16, 29; Romans 4:16; 9:3-8).

The apostle Paul calls Christians “the Israel of God” and “the circumcision.” God gave circumcision to Abraham as a symbol of belonging to God's people. When Paul refers to all Christians as “the circumcision,” he reminds us that the Kingdom of God and the covenant promises associated with it were taken from the Jews and passed on to spiritual Israel. This new circumcision is not of the body but of the heart.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder (Matthew 21:43-44).

Any who permit Christ to transform them and to change their character receive the new name of “Israel,” just as Jacob did thousands of years ago.

Jesus did not choose 12 disciples by accident. Just as the 12 patriarchs were the founders of ancient Israel, so these 12 men are the foundation stones of new Israel (Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). The subsequent choice of 70 others is modeled after the choice of 70 elders by Moses in ancient Israel (Numbers 11:16).

New Covenant Israel


Dispensationalists do not believe in Spiritual Israel, which is the Church, but believe that the promises of Scripture are for literal Israel only. They thus separate the Church from Israel, but the Bible makes no such distinction:

Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16 NIV).

Dispensationalists say that the relief for God's people and the consequences for those who disobeyed Him will occur seven years apart. They say that the rapture of God's people will come first, followed by the destruction of the Antichrist at the Second Coming. During this supposed seven-year period, the Jewish people will go through the tribulation and will come to accept Christ.

However, the truth is that typology in the Bible always points to something greater. The symbolic lamb points to Christ—the latter being so much greater than the former. Literal Babylon points to end-time Babylon, comprising all the forces that reject God. Literal Jerusalem is a type of end-time spiritual Jerusalem, comprising the redeemed of all the ages. Despite this, dispensationalists await a literal reconstruction of Babylon and Israel, which would be the same as awaiting the return of a literal lamb.

Literal versus Spiritual Israel | Tribulation of God's People | Bible Prophecy
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Israel as a nation failed the purpose that they were chosen for, to spread the Gospel

Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

When the Jewish nation rejected the Messiah, the Gospel was spread to all nations. All who believe in the name of Jesus can now become the spiritual descendants of Abraham (Galatians 3:16, 29; Romans 4:16; 9:3-8).

The apostle Paul calls Christians “the Israel of God” and “the circumcision.” God gave circumcision to Abraham as a symbol of belonging to God's people. When Paul refers to all Christians as “the circumcision,” he reminds us that the Kingdom of God and the covenant promises associated with it were taken from the Jews and passed on to spiritual Israel. This new circumcision is not of the body but of the heart.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder (Matthew 21:43-44).

Any who permit Christ to transform them and to change their character receive the new name of “Israel,” just as Jacob did thousands of years ago.

Jesus did not choose 12 disciples by accident. Just as the 12 patriarchs were the founders of ancient Israel, so these 12 men are the foundation stones of new Israel (Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30). The subsequent choice of 70 others is modeled after the choice of 70 elders by Moses in ancient Israel (Numbers 11:16).

New Covenant Israel


Dispensationalists do not believe in Spiritual Israel, which is the Church, but believe that the promises of Scripture are for literal Israel only. They thus separate the Church from Israel, but the Bible makes no such distinction:

Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16 NIV).

Dispensationalists say that the relief for God's people and the consequences for those who disobeyed Him will occur seven years apart. They say that the rapture of God's people will come first, followed by the destruction of the Antichrist at the Second Coming. During this supposed seven-year period, the Jewish people will go through the tribulation and will come to accept Christ.

However, the truth is that typology in the Bible always points to something greater. The symbolic lamb points to Christ—the latter being so much greater than the former. Literal Babylon points to end-time Babylon, comprising all the forces that reject God. Literal Jerusalem is a type of end-time spiritual Jerusalem, comprising the redeemed of all the ages. Despite this, dispensationalists await a literal reconstruction of Babylon and Israel, which would be the same as awaiting the return of a literal lamb.

Literal versus Spiritual Israel | Tribulation of God's People | Bible Prophecy

You should read the thread before you comment; it's obvious you haven't because I addressed these issues over and over again. Furthermore, I am not a dispensationalist. So when I see you have actually read the thread and have some relevant issues, then I'll address them. BTW, are you a Seventh-day Adventist?
 
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Acts 13:47 proves Christ is synonymous with the chosen/elect nation Israel (which you concede)

It doesn't appear that you know what the word concede means. Concede means I at first disagreed, and then later agreed. So I'll ask (but I doubt you'll respond), where did I at first disagree that Christ is synonymous with the nation of Israel, so that I could later CONCEDE and agree that Christ is synonymous with Israel?

and Acts 13:47 proves the nation Israel is also a light to the gentiles through the Servant Christ,

Not sure why you are still continuing to argue this point. In post #425 I agreed with you.

Now, if you can answer (but you probably won't), can the gentiles, who have been grafted into Israel and are now one with Christ, bring the light the unbelieving gentiles or no?


which substantiates that the kingdom of heaven was never taken from Israel in Matthew 21:43;

I agree

it was merely taken from Judah and given to Ephraim/Israel.

It was taken away from Judah, who remained a slave to the old covenant and was given to Christ and his body (Jew, Ephraim, Gentile). Christ and his Body being Israel, the singular and yet plural seed of Abraham

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”g meaning One, who is Christ.

Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Christ is given the kingdom at his ascension
Daniel 7:14 And He was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom,

Luke 19:12 He said, “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to lay claim to his kingdom and then return.

The nation under Christ is given the kingdom at the little horn's destruction
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High

matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit

Peter substantiates this in 1 Peter 2:9-10, citing directly from Hosea 2:23 to vindicate Ephraim finds grace in the wilderness at that time,

And Paul has hosea fulfilled with the inclusion of the gentiles.
Romans 9:24-25 including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?As He says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people, and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”h

So how do we reconcile Paul having hosea fulfilled with the gentiles and peter having it fulfilled with the elect exiles in the dispersion ( never says Ephraim, but let's assume you are right)?

Over 700 years, from the time of the Assyrian exile until the 1st advent, Many from Ephraim had been mixed, culturally, socially, genetically, and religiously with other nations, thus becoming many a multitude of nations. Thus by God calling the gentiles, which most likely included genetic descendants from Ephraim, God fulfills his promise to bring Ephraim back into the fold.


Furthermore, you’re merely trying to obfuscate the ramifications from a number of highly respected supersessionists who vindicate the “seed” in Isaiah 54:3 represents Israel (or the Jewish church in their parlance) who inherit the gentiles and populate Israel’s desolate cities, which were in the wilderness at that time, in agreement with Jeremiah 31:1-3, 9 and Hosea 2:14-23. And this also vindicates that Ephraim becomes a company of nations in this age and not the past.

I asked if you could prove your assumption on the commentaries by showing that these highly respected supersessionists don't believe that Christ and his church are spiritually one flesh. If you could do that, then you could prove your point, but it doesn't seem you are able.

Moreover, you’ve agreed to this unwittingly when I showed you (and you agreed) that Ephraim is gathered in Christ at the first advent and then sown throughout the world to worship God in truth in Zechariah 10:8-9,

It wasn't unintentional. I intentionally agree with you.

fulfilling Christ’s ordination that Jerusalem would no longer be the center of the worship of God in John 4:21-24.

I agree

In John Christ also states that salvation is from the Jews, in agreement that the kingdom of heaven was never taken from Israel in Matthew 21:43; it was merely taken from Judah and given to Ephraim/Israel.

I agree, with the exception that I believe the kingdom was taken from Judah and given to Christ and his body (Jew, Ephraim, Gentile).

THT fits all the pieces of the puzzle of divine providence that were mixed throughout the Old and New Testaments and fits them together while supersessionism tries to force the pieces into place.

Subjective.

As to the understanding that it was not beyond the vision of the prophet’s understanding that God’s people where substantively the temple and not the literal stones and mortar, why cite from those who were ordained to reject the cornerstone? And your perception that the NT negates the OT is classic RT. What else can one garner from your challenge to produce NT vindication that Ezekiel’s temple will be built in the age to come? THT holds what Paul states.

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Correct, All scripture is God breathed and profitable for teaching. But it doesn't seem you can provide any NT scripture to substantiate your claim that there will be a future literal earthly brick and mortar temple to worship in. Classic THT/dispensationlism: can't provide NT scripture to substantiate their own interpretation of the OT.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Not sure why you are still continuing to argue this point. In post #425 I agreed with you.

Now, if you can answer (but you probably won't), can the gentiles, who have been grafted into Israel and are now one with Christ, bring the light the unbelieving gentiles or no?

Oh really! I continue to make the point because you keep trying to backpedal on it. You say you agree that the “nation Israel” is a light to the gentiles, but then try backpedal your acknowledgment by trying to make the gentiles the light. What progressed in time is not the issue; the issue is God’s word was fulfilled when the elect descendant of Ephraim took the gospel to the world, prophesied in Zechariah. Zechariah 10:8-9 affirms it was Ephraim that was gathered in Christ and the sown in the world to spread the gospel, not the gentiles; the gentiles were already spread throughout the world and ignorant of God. The Jews certainly didn’t spread the gospel when they were cast off. Your backpedaling indicates you really don’t agree that the “nation Israel” was chosen by God to be the light to the gentiles. This is why you also keep trying to avert the ramifications of supersessionists who interpret the “seed” in Isaiah 54:3 as the “nation Israel.”

I asked if you could prove your assumption on the commentaries by showing that these highly respected supersessionists don't believe that Christ and his church are spiritually one flesh. If you could do that, then you could prove your point, but it doesn't seem you are able.

The ramifications are that the “seed” is the “nation Israel” and they inherit the gentiles, which is revelaed in the NT “as” the gentiles being grafted to Israel (Romans 11), made one in Christ (Ephesians 2) and fellow heirs (Galatian 3). Even so, it is the “nation Israel” that is the light to the gentiles when sown in the world, and not vice versa as your backpedaling wants to change it. It is your backpedaling that refuses to acknowledge that the nation that bears the fruit in Matthew 21:43 is Ephraim/Israel.

It was taken away from Judah, who remained a slave to the old covenant and was given to Christ and his body (Jew, Ephraim, Gentile). Christ and his Body being Israel, the singular and yet plural seed of Abraham

You’re still trying to backpedal that Christ is synonymous with the “nation Israel,” which makes it the only “nation” that can fulfill Matthew 21:43. The gentiles are not of “one” nation, but are from many nations. Only Ephraim and Judah are nations in the singular form of the word ethnei, which is the word that appears in Matthew 21:43. And as we know, Judah cannot be the nation. In order to properly interpret ethnei in Matthew 21:43 it must represent an entity that is a singular nation, which cannot be said of the gentiles. You say you agree that Christ is synonymous with the “nation Israel” but your backpedaling is the only explanation for your refusal to interpret the nation in said verse as Ephraim/Israel and the fruit as the gentiles. The gentiles are made one in Christ and fellow heirs as the “fruit” in the text; Ephraim/Israel is the nation, properly interpreted. So, in truth your words show that you do not really accept that Christ is synonymous with the “nation Israel” when you interpret the nation as you do and try and make Paul conform to your view in Romans 9:24-25.

So how do we reconcile Paul having hosea fulfilled with the gentiles and peter having it fulfilled with the elect exiles in the dispersion ( never says Ephraim, but let's assume you are right)?

Over 700 years, from the time of the Assyrian exile until the 1st advent, Many from Ephraim had been mixed, culturally, socially, genetically, and religiously with other nations, thus becoming many a multitude of nations. Thus by God calling the gentiles, which most likely included genetic descendants from Ephraim, God fulfills his promise to bring Ephraim back into the fold.

But you’re making my point that Paul is referring to Ephraim in Romans 9:25-26 in that they were still descendants of Ephraim. We know they are mixed from Hosea’s prophecies.

Ephraim mixes himself with the peoples; Ephraim is a cake not turned. Hosea 7:8

Israel is swallowed up; already they are among the nations as a useless vessel. Hosea 8:8​

But the element you are neglecting is that the Jews knew where many of these descendants were and that they had maintained their identity to a some extent in the first century, witnessed in John 7:35 and 11:52, and also by the first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who observed that the ten tribes were “beyond Euphrates till now” and were as “an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 11.133). It is undeniable that this is what is meant by the elect exiles of the dispersion in 1 Peter 1:1, and it also cannot be overlooked that Paul had contact with these same people in Galatia before he traveled to Rome, where he wrote said verses in Romans 9. It was these same descendants of Ephraim that Zechariah 10:8-9 prophesied about, and when they were sown it fulfilled Isaiah 49 and became the “nation Israel” sent as a light to the gentiles.
 
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ebedmelech

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Did you or did you not declare:

“I'm not...nor would I ever assert that God is done with Israel according to the flesh. That is clear throughout scripture…. A remnant of Israel has been being saved since Christ ascended, and that will continue until the last day, as they of Israel who become saved, are elect as every believer is Jerry.”

You unequivocally substantiated through your own declaration there is a remnant of biological descendants that are just as much “the Israel of God” as Christ: Many are called but few are chosen. Furthermore, before they were born, this Israel was known by God from the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:10-12). Acts 13:47 also substantiates my perception.

I absolutely did, but I equally affirm that all saved Jews and Gentiles are “the Israel of God". Therefore nothing changes…to say God is done with Israel would be a denial of Romans 11:1-5.

For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'" Acts 13:47

The pronouns us refers to Israel/Ephraim (Romans 11:1) but in the original quote from Isaiah 49:6 the pronoun you, singular, refers to Christ, the Servant. Paul, through progressive revelation, supplanted a plural where a singular was expressed, which substantiates both are appropriate from a theological interpretation. Christ is synonymous with the nation Israel (Isaiah 49:3). Certainly, the pronoun us in Acts 13:47 cannot represent the gentiles, as the event is when the apostles/Israel turn to the gentiles, and we cannot have the gentiles turning to the gentiles.

No it doesn’t. All one has to do is hold the context of the passage the “us” refers to Paul and Barnabus…and the proof is in Jesus’ call of Paul. Try Acts 9:10-19. You also have the Holy Spirit choosing Paul and Barnabus to go to the Gentiles in Acts 13:1-3…but moreso the quote is from Isaiah 42:6 which speaks of Jesus, who is the One sending them out on HIS AUTHORITY. That’s what it means.

True, it is by faith that the children of the promise are counted, but that does not preclude differing callings for individuals or peoples. What supersessionism is blind to is Israel’s missionary calling to gather the gentiles in the fulfillment that through Abraham the families of the earth shall be blessed (Genesis 12:3).

Here again you’re failing to follow scripture correctly. The correct rendering is given by Paul at Romans 4, where he explains it so clearly. Have you really read Romans 4 carefully? Genesis 12:3 is just the beginning…it’s more properly explained to Abraham by God at Genesis 17:1-6…try that. Paul takes it to the nth degree in Romans 4.

After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go. And he said to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. Luke 10:1-2

Take this a little further Jerry. This was during Christ coming to “His own”, which is Israel. The passage says Christ sent them ONLY TO places He would go to in Israel. Read it again. This is why John could say “those who were His own did not receive Him”. Further, how about reading Matthew 21:33-46?

While the salivation went to the Gentiles because of Christ, Christ used Israel as the labors to this end according to scripture, like Acts 13:47 and the book of Isaiah.

But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine…. All the nations gather together, and the peoples assemble. Who among them can declare this, and show us the former things? Let them bring their witnesses to prove them right, and let them hear and say, It is true. "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:1, 9-10

Awake, awake, put on your strength, O Zion; put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city; for there shall no more come into you the uncircumcised and the unclean…. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, "Your God reigns." Isaiah 52:1, 7

What you’re doing is failing to realize you read these prophecies in light of the New Testament which reveals the Old Testament. Also…I notice you omitted Isaiah 43:22-28. Why?

Romans 4 does not preclude the remnant of Israel’s mission to the gentiles, as specifically Ephraim as the nation that bears the fruit in Matthew 21:43.

Question Jerry: Does “all” mean “all” when it comes to the Gospel? The remnant isn’t the Issue here. The Issue is after Christ ascended…who is Israel from God’s viewpoint.

Obviously, you maintain that Christ is the Servant given the title Israel in Isaiah 49:3, but fail to dig deeper that he is abhorred by a nation in verse 8, which can only be Judah, which was Christ’s people and fulfills John 1:11. But you refuse to note that “raising the tribes of Jacob” as too easy a task for Christ the Servant and tasks him further to save the elect gentiles, which substantiates, one, these tasks are conflated and, two, they commenced with the first advent just as you conceded and, three, the tribes of Jacob are the literal descendants of the patriarch Jacob, as they are discerned from the nations/gentiles. The only reconciliation for John 1:11 is THT’s exegesis of Matthew 21:43 that the management of the kingdom of God was taken from Judah and given to Ephraim/Israel. I’m not going to let you side-step your concession or the implications of “all” of Isaiah 49.

Jerry…Israel is “the nation” Christ was abhorred by! It’s you who needs to dig deeper. Who yelled “We have no king but Caesar? Who said “We will not have THIS MAN to rule over us?

And this goes to the heart of your misconception of Peter’s epistles. The gentiles were not exiles or were they dispersed as Ephraim in the first century. This is supported by the first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who observed that the ten tribes were “beyond Euphrates till now”and were as “an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 11.133)

No one denies the dispersion you speak of…the question is: Is that what Peter is speaking of? Especially since most of that dispersion were dead. How is it you read Acts with all the persecution and scattering of the church throughout Asia, and cannot understand that is what Peter speaks of?
 
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Jerryhuerta

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No it doesn’t. All one has to do is hold the context of the passage the “us” refers to Paul and Barnabus…and the proof is in Jesus’ call of Paul. Try Acts 9:10-19. You also have the Holy Spirit choosing Paul and Barnabus to go to the Gentiles in Acts 13:1-3…but moreso the quote is from Isaiah 42:6 which speaks of Jesus, who is the One sending them out on HIS AUTHORITY. That’s what it means.

I disagree. Isaiah 42:6 is strictly Christ as he is given for a covenant of the people. Paul was citing from Isaiah 49 and it wasn’t just Barnabus and himself he relates as Isaiah 49:3 affirms that Christ is synonymous with the “nation Israel.” The “us” is affirmed as the “nation Israel” in Isaiah 49:3.

Here again you’re failing to follow scripture correctly. The correct rendering is given by Paul at Romans 4, where he explains it so clearly. Have you really read Romans 4 carefully? Genesis 12:3 is just the beginning…it’s more properly explained to Abraham by God at Genesis 17:1-6…try that. Paul takes it to the nth degree in Romans 4.

Romans 4 doesn’t preclude different callings.

And he called the twelve together, and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. Luke 9:1​

Christ did not call everyone for the same purpose (1 Corinthians 12:28), which affirms he called the “nation Israel” to be a light to the gentiles in fulfillment of Isaiah 49:6 and Paul’s revelation in Acts 13:43.

Take this a little further Jerry. This was during Christ coming to “His own”, which is Israel. The passage says Christ sent them ONLY TO places He would go to in Israel. Read it again. This is why John could say “those who were His own did not receive Him”. Further, how about reading Matthew 21:33-46?.... Jerry…Israel is “the nation” Christ was abhorred by! It’s you who needs to dig deeper. Who yelled “We have no king but Caesar? Who said “We will not have THIS MAN to rule over us?

Asked and answered. You acknowledge Christ is the servant and the true Israel in Isaiah 49:3, but it is you who refuses to dig deeper as God tasks the servant to raise the tribes of Jacob in conjunction with, he will be abhorred by a nation in verses 6-7. Your comments affirm your lack of comprehension that the two verses are reconciled with the knowledge that there are two houses of Israel in scripture, which allows for Christ to raise one house while the other abhors him.

No one denies the dispersion you speak of…the question is: Is that what Peter is speaking of? Especially since most of that dispersion were dead. How is it you read Acts with all the persecution and scattering of the church throughout Asia, and cannot understand that is what Peter speaks of?

Asked and answered. The gentiles were not exiles nor were they dispersed as Ephraim at the first century. This is supported by the first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who observed that the ten tribes were “beyond Euphrates till now” and were as “an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 11.133) Your comment that most of the dispersion were dead is an anachronism. Josephus was there, you were not.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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You should read the thread before you comment; it's obvious you haven't because I addressed these issues over and over again. Furthermore, I am not a dispensationalist. So when I see you have actually read the thread and have some relevant issues, then I'll address them. BTW, are you a Seventh-day Adventist?

REad my avatar to answer you question
 
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claninja

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Oh really! I continue to make the point because you keep trying to backpedal on it.

your misunderstanding of my belief doesn't constitute backpedaling on my part.

You say you agree that the “nation Israel” is a light to the gentiles, but then try backpedal your acknowledgment by trying to make the gentiles the light.

I believe Christ, the head, is synonymous with the nation of Israel. He is the source of light. It is Christ who proclaimed the light to both Jew and gentile. Thus, I believe Israel (Christ) is a light to the nations (Jew and Gentile)

Acts 26:23 that the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles.”

I believe Christ and his body are spiritually one flesh, Thus when Christ, the light of the world ascended, his light to the world would be displayed through his body, first to the Jew and then to the Gentile.

Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church

John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so thatb they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek

I believe the body of Christ, that is one with Christ, consists of Jew and gentile.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Thus I believe Israel, which consists of the head, who is Christ, and the body, who are Jew and gentile, bring the light of Christ to the nations.

What progressed in time is not the issue; the issue is God’s word was fulfilled when the elect descendant of Ephraim took the gospel to the world, prophesied in Zechariah. Zechariah 10:8-9 affirms it was Ephraim that was gathered in Christ and the sown in the world to spread the gospel, not the gentiles;

Over 700 years, from the Assyrian exile until the 1st advent, many of Ephraim mixed genetically, socially, culturally, and religiously with the surrounding nations. They were divorced by God and became "not my people". They became as gentiles. Thus by the gentiles being gathered in Christ, into his body, where there is no longer Jew or gentile but all being one in Christ, they were then sown in the world to bring the gospel to the nations, thus fulfilling the promise to Ephraim.

Your backpedaling indicates you really don’t agree that the “nation Israel” was chosen by God to be the light to the gentiles.

This is an illogical conclusion that you are forcing.

We both appear agree Christ is synonymous with Israel, we both appear to agree that the body of Christ is spiritually one flesh with Christ, who is Israel. Christ is the light of the world. Christ ascended to heaven. Through his body, the light is brought to the nations.

The Jews, Paul and Barnabas, were a light to the gentiles by being a part of the body of Christ. Gentiles who are grafted in to the body of Christ are also a light to the non believing nations.


Luke, believed to be gentile based on colossians 4, was a fellow worker with Paul, thus demonstrating that gentiles were spreading the gospel, the light, to the nations.
Philemon 1:24 and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.

This is why you also keep trying to avert the ramifications of supersessionists who interpret the “seed” in Isaiah 54:3 as the “nation Israel.”

And you continue to avoid providing evidence that those supersessionists believed Christ and his body were not one spiritual flesh. If you could provide this evidence, then you can support your assumption about those supersessionists' FULL opinion on the seed, not just one small sample from their large body of work.

Can they possess the nations outside of Christ? No, it is Christ who inherits the nations, and his body is co-heir.

The ramifications are that the “seed” is the “nation Israel” and they inherit the gentiles, which is revelaed in the NT “as” the gentiles being grafted to Israel (Romans 11),

Who is the root and who are the branches? Are the gentiles grafted into the root or onto the branches that remained on root?

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree

So, in truth your words show that you do not really accept that Christ is synonymous with the “nation Israel” when you interpret the nation as you do and try and make Paul conform to your view in Romans 9:24-25.

This conclusion makes no logical sense. Is that what our discussion is going to be from now on? You continuing to make up forced illogical conclusions based on misunderstandings of what I believe?

And your not making Paul conform to your view? Where does Paul specifically mention the term "Ephraim" in Romans 9:24-25? He doesn't. He quotes Hosea as being fulfilled with Jews and Gentiles being called as vessels of mercy.

You’re still trying to backpedal that Christ is synonymous with the “nation Israel,”

Incorrect. Please show where I stated that Christ is NOT synonymous with "nation Israel" prior to agreeing that He is, then I will concede that you understand the definition of backpedal.

The gentiles are not of “one” nation, but are from many nations. Only Ephraim and Judah are nations in the singular form of the word ethnei, which is the word that appears in Matthew 21:43. And as we know, Judah cannot be the nation.

In Christ they are one.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus.

In order to properly interpret ethnei in Matthew 21:43 it must represent an entity that is a singular nation, which cannot be said of the gentiles.

There is one, not multiple.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ

The gentiles are made one in Christ and fellow heirs as the “fruit” in the text;

maybe you could clarify, what passage states gentiles are fellow heirs as the fruit?

But you’re making my point that Paul is referring to Ephraim in Romans 9:25-26 in that they were still descendants of Ephraim. We know they are mixed from Hosea’s prophecies.

Ephraim mixes himself with the peoples; Ephraim is a cake not turned. Hosea 7:8

Israel is swallowed up; already they are among the nations as a useless vessel. Hosea 8:8

And yet Paul doesn't make a distinction between Ephraim and gentile, like you do.

But the element you are neglecting is that the Jews knew where many of these descendants were and that they had maintained their identity to a some extent in the first century, witnessed in John 7:35

The dispersion doesn't only refer to the 10 northern tribes.

john 7:35 The Jews said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we will not find him? Does he intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?

Entire quote from Josephus. "and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Iomans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers"

What is the meaning of Josephus' "immense multitude not to be estimated". Are there other historical sources that refer to these 10 northern tribes as being a specific people, a specific nation?

The NT scriptures for sure don't mention the "nation" of Ephraim specifically by name.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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I believe Christ, the head, is synonymous with the nation of Israel. He is the source of light. It is Christ who proclaimed the light to both Jew and gentile. Thus, I believe Israel (Christ) is a light to the nations (Jew and Gentile)

In my post 423, in reference to Acts 13:47, I stated that the pronoun “us” refers to Israel/Ephraim, to which you replied in your post #425:

“I agree it points to Israel. Paul from the tribe of Benjamin, not Ephraim, includes himself in the "us" to bring light to the gentiles…. By being one with Christ, the Jews brought the gospel to the gentiles…”

Now you're backpedaling on your agreement that “by being one with Christ, the Jews brought the gospel to the gentiles,” and are trying to change it to “(Christ) is a light to the nations (Jew and Gentile)." That is a huge alteration of your original affirmation. Your change does not even agree with Isaiah 49:6.

And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Isaiah 49:5-6 KJV​

The pronoun “thee” is the Servant, Christ; he is given as a light to the gentiles; the gentiles are not Jews! Christ is not given as a light to the Jews and gentiles in Isaiah. Christ is given to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to be a light to the gentiles, which is something completely different than your change or backpedaling.

I also said in my post that “Christ is synonymous with the nation Israel (Isaiah 49:3),” and your reply in post #425 was:

“I agree.”

Your agreement is an acknowledgment that Israel is defined by the elect people of the nation as well as their king, Christ, which is the meaning of the word synonymous, which is the revelation Paul gave us by using the plural pronoun “us” in place of the singular “you” in Acts 13:47, in his citation of Isaiah 49:6.

For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'" Acts 13:47​

Your agreement resulted in your acknowledgment that Acts 13:47: “points to Israel. Paul from the tribe of Benjamin, not Ephraim, includes himself in the "us" to bring light to the gentiles…. By being one with Christ, the Jews brought the gospel to the gentiles…” But now your backpedaling and try to change your own words to something completely different, that “I believe Israel (Christ) is a light to the nations (Jew and Gentile)”

Further down in this post you repeat the recanting.

This is an illogical conclusion that you are forcing… The Jews, Paul and Barnabas, were a light to the gentiles by being a part of the body of Christ. Gentiles who are grafted in to the body of Christ are also a light to the non believing nations.

Again, the subject is Isaiah 49:6 and Paul’s revelation concerning the verse in Acts 13:47, and the Jews, Paul and Barnabas, are characterized by “the tribes of Jacob,” not the gentiles in Isaiah 49:6. The noun phrase “the tribes of Jacob” is just another tile or is synonymous with the “nation Israel,” which you confirmed is also synonymous with Christ, which affirms that the “nation Israel” is also the light to the gentiles, which you affirmed in your post #425, but now your recanting, so the onus of illogic rather falls on your pate.

In reference to my comment that you also keep trying to avert the ramifications of supersessionists who interpret the “seed” in Isaiah 54:3 as the “nation Israel,” you wrote,

And you continue to avoid providing evidence that those supersessionists believed Christ and his body were not one spiritual flesh. If you could provide this evidence, then you can support your assumption about those supersessionists' FULL opinion on the seed, not just one small sample from their large body of work.

This is a major strawman because being one spiritual flesh does not preclude different callings. In Romans 12:3-9 Paul makes it clear that not all are called to minister and that is what being a light to the gentiles entails in Isaiah 54:3, 49:6 and in Acts 13:47. Romans 11:29 affirms God does not repent in his calling and Zechariah 10:6-10 also affirms he called Ephraim/Israel to minister the gospel to the gentiles. Zechariah 10:8-9 affirms it was Ephraim that was gathered in Christ and the sown in the world to spread the gospel, not the gentiles; the gentiles were already spread throughout the world and ignorant of God. The Jews certainly didn’t spread the gospel when they were cast off.

The rest of your post is just a continuation of side-stepping the truth that being one flesh does not preclude different callings. Your agreement that Acts 13:47: “points to Israel. Paul from the tribe of Benjamin, not Ephraim, includes himself in the "us" to bring light to the gentiles…. By being one with Christ, the Jews brought the gospel to the gentiles…” is an acknowledgment that Israel was called to minister to the gentiles, which I’m not going to allow you to deflect. Your acknowledgment also inadvertently supports that Ephraim/Israel is the nation in Matthew 21:43 and the people Paul is addressing in Romans 9:25-26, your backpedaling notwithstanding.
 
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claninja

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In my post 423, in reference to Acts 13:47, I stated that the pronoun “us” refers to Israel/Ephraim, to which you replied in your post #425:

“I agree it points to Israel. Paul from the tribe of Benjamin, not Ephraim, includes himself in the "us" to bring light to the gentiles…. By being one with Christ, the Jews brought the gospel to the gentiles…”

Correct, I agreed that the "us" in Acts 13:47 pointed to Israel, as Paul and Barnabas include themselves in the "us" bringing the light to the gentiles.

Acts 13:47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’


Now you're backpedaling on your agreement that “by being one with Christ, the Jews brought the gospel to the gentiles,” and are trying to change it to “(Christ) is a light to the nations (Jew and Gentile)." That is a huge alteration of your original affirmation. Your change does not even agree with Isaiah 49:6.

Again, your misunderstanding and apparent confusion on what I believe does not constitute backpedaling on my part.

Let's use an example of the oneness of Christ and the Church to help clarify

Paul states Christ is the singular seed to whom the promises were spoken.
Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”g meaning One, who is Christ.

Paul also states that if you are in Christ, regardless of race, tribe, or nationality, you are Abraham's seed.
Galatians 3:29 and if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Thus the singular and yet plural seed is revealed through Christ, the head, and the church, the body being one spiritual flesh.
Ephesians 5:31-32 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”bThis mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.

This same principle of the spiritual one flesh is applied to the "light to the nations"

Christ is the head. He is the source of light. He is the light to the Jew and Gentile. Outside of Christ, no one has light.

John 8:12 Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Acts 26:23 That the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles.”

The Church, those in Christ, who are his body are the light to the nations.
Acts 13:47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

John 8:12 Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”


The offspring in Isaiah 49:6 is singular (Christ, the source of the light, the head) and yet plural (the body of Christ) through the mystery that marriage pointed to: Christ and his body spiritually being one flesh.

The pronoun “thee” is the Servant, Christ; he is given as a light to the gentiles

I absolutely agree

the gentiles are not Jews!

Gentiles are not a part of Israel outside of Christ.

But in Christ, gentiles are Abraham's seed and thus Israel.
Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Christ is not given as a light to the Jews and gentiles in Isaiah

The Jews don't need the light? Maybe you could explain what you believe the light actually is to clarify?

I also said in my post that “Christ is synonymous with the nation Israel (Isaiah 49:3),” and your reply in post #425 was:

“I agree.”

Correct

Your agreement resulted in your acknowledgment that Acts 13:47: “points to Israel. Paul from the tribe of Benjamin, not Ephraim, includes himself in the "us" to bring light to the gentiles…. By being one with Christ, the Jews brought the gospel to the gentiles…” But now your backpedaling and try to change your own words to something completely different, that “I believe Israel (Christ) is a light to the nations (Jew and Gentile)”

Christ and his body are one, thus your misunderstanding of my belief doesn't constitute backpedaling on my part.

I continue to hold to Israel, which is Christ, the head, and the church, his body (jew and grafted in gentile), is the light the nations.

Again, the subject is Isaiah 49:6 and Paul’s revelation concerning the verse in Acts 13:47, and the Jews, Paul and Barnabas, are characterized by “the tribes of Jacob,” not the gentiles in Isaiah 49:6.

who said Paul and Barnabas are characterized by gentiles?

which you confirmed is also synonymous with Christ, which affirms that the “nation Israel” is also the light to the gentiles, which you affirmed in your post #425, but now your recanting,

Where did I recant Jesus, who is synonymous with the nation Israel, is a light to the gentiles?

Additionally, this doesn't surmount my argument that gentiles, who were grafted into the body of Christ, were a light to the nations. Notice, Luke and Titus, both gentiles, are fellow workers with Paul, a Jew, to bring the light to the nations.


Philemon 1:24 and so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers.

2 corinthians 8:23 as for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker for your benefit. And as for our brothers, they are messengersf of the churches, the glory of Christ.

This is a major strawman because being one spiritual flesh does not preclude different callings.

strawman? I didn't create a different argument and then knock it down. I asked you to provide evidence to support your assumption of the belief of the supersessionists. You still have not done so.

Different callings do not mean there is not one body.


1 corinthians 12:14-20 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts,e yet one body.

The rest of your post is just a continuation of side-stepping the truth that being one flesh does not preclude different callings.

Sure Jerry...........
 
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You are doing the same thing, backpedaling. First, you state that you agree that Acts 13:47 affirms that the “biological descendants” of Israel (Paul and Barnabas) are prophesied in Isaiah 49:6 to bring the light to the gentiles.

Correct, I agreed that the "us" in Acts 13:47 pointed to Israel, as Paul and Barnabas include themselves in the "us" bringing the light to the gentiles.

Here are the texts at issue.

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Isaiah 49:6 KJV

For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. Acts 13:47​

I used the KJV so there is no mistake; the Servant, Christ, is given as a light to the gentiles, not the descendants of Israel, or the tribes of Jacob. God commands the Servant/Christ to raise and restore the tribes of Israel in correspondence with him also being given as a light to the gentiles; again, he is not given as a light to the descendants of Israel in Isaiah 49:6. You agreed that Paul’s revelation made the elect descendants of Israel synonymous with the Servant/Christ, not the gentiles. Now you're recanting. You're using the NT to alter the meaning of the text.

The light in Isaiah 49:6 is the revelation of God through Christ and Paul’s rendering reveals that God used Christ and the descendants of Israel to give the revelation of God through Christ to the gentiles, which is what happened and to a greater extent than what supersessionism is willing to grasp. God chose the descendants of Israel to minister the revelation of God through Christ to the gentiles, which is also affirmed in Zechariah 10:7-12, Isaiah 54:3 and Amos 9:11-12 and Jeremiah 31 to name a few. The scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, affirm that God called a remnant of Judah and the house of Israel/Ephraim (Zion) to give the revelation of God through Christ to the world, which is what supersessionists attempt to suppress or simply do not comprehend, which is what your backpedaling attempts. Your initial admission agreed with the aforesaid, but your supersessionist’s presuppositions won’t let you admit the ramifications.

None of the supersessionists that I’ve cited interpret Zechariah 10:6-12 as we have. Many interpret it as the return of the Jews during the time of the Greeks ruled the world, or they attribute it to the salvation of the Jews just prior to Christ’s return, but none of them have a clue that there are two houses of Israel addressed in Zechariah 10:6-12. Texts such as Isaiah 49 and Zechariah 10, Hosea 2, Jeremiah 31 and Amos 9 affirm two houses of Israel and without this proper comprehension there can be no proper rendering of NT texts such as 1 Peter 2:9-10, Romans 9:25-26 or Matthew 21:43. Your admission that Zechariah 10:8-9 refers to the other house of Ephraim, as opposed to Judah, and your initial admission concerning Acts 13:14 are actually an acknowledgment of THT, but your supersessionist presuppositions keep you backpedaling.
 
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REad my avatar to answer you question

You might what to read my thread, Replacement Theology Refuted, as I address the misrepresentation of conditional prophecy. I am planning a post refuting that Antiochus Epiphanes is the little horn in Daniel 8 that you might want to get in on.
 
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the law, which came 430 years afterward
quoted from your post in "Replacement Theology Refuted"

I stopped reading when I came to that false statement.
Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The law was with the first family

Disobientance occurred in the Garden with Eve and Adam, ie sin, they were removed and did not have access to the tree of life, therefor they died.

Cain offered a sacrifice that the Lord would not accept.

Cain Killed Able

1 John 3:4 [Full Chapter]
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

so you see the law was always present with the human race and will be the instrument that we are judged by

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 
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