Replacement Theology Refuted

claninja · Apr 11, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
Psalms 83:
1 Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2 For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

Supersessionism fulfills this scripture.

You conveniently left out verses 5-8. the context of those crafting against the nation of Israel to cut them off during the time Psalm 83 was written:

Psalm 83:5-8 For they conspire with one accord; against you they make a covenant—the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites, Gebal and Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre;Asshur also has joined them;they are the strong arm of the children of Lot.

Jerryhuerta said:
Making comments that the gentiles are restored in fulfillment of Zechariah 10:6 and that their restoration was fulfilled in Christ cuts off the nation of Israel and takes some council with the enemy.

With comments like this, Jerry, you seem to believe that Ephraim never became a multitude of nations or were never called ,"not my people".

So then Ephraim was still God's people during the 700 years of Assyrian exile leading up to Christ?

I disagree, as this would be contrary to scripture. Because Ephraim/Joseph/House of Israel broke the covenant, God divorced them, made them "not his people" and scattered them among the nations.

Hosea 1:4-8 And the Lord said to him, “Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the Lord said to him, “Call her name No Mercy,a for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Lord their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.”
When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son. And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.”c

Jeremiah 3:8 She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce

So Ephraim, over 700 years of being scattered by the Assyrians, did not become a multitude of nations?

I disagree, as That would be contrary to scripture. It is prophesied that Ephraim would become a multitude of nations.

Genesis 48:19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.”

***So if Ephraim was to become a multitude of nations, as well as "not my people" in regards to the special relationship God had with the nation Israel, then what would that make them? That would make them gentiles and we can confirm this with NT scripture.

For Paul has the gathering of gentiles as fulfilling hosea 1:10 and hosea 2:23. Thus by God calling the gentiles, he fulfills His promise to Ephraim to gather them with Judah under ONE HEAD who is Christ.

Romans 9:24-26 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

Jerryhuerta said:
It maintains the prophecies and promise to Israel were based on works and not grace.

How so, Jerry? How does God including gentiles into the body of Christ maintain the promises and prophecies to Israel are based on works and not grace?

Jerryhuerta said:
And if by grace they are restored as a nation in the age to come in conformity with premillennialism and not supersessionism.

Restored how, jerry? restored to the old covenantal status under the Mosaic law or restored to God through the new covenant?

claninja · Apr 11, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
I don’t see any scripture you cited that verifies that Christ was seated on David’s throne after his resurrection.

When David wrote psalm 16 he spoke concerning the resurrection of Christ because he knew that God would set one of his descendants on throne.

Acts 2:30-31 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Peter does not connect this to his 2nd coming, he connects it to the resurrection.

You connect Christ sitting on the throne at His 2nd coming, but Peter connects it to the resurrection.

I'll stick with Peter.

Jerryhuerta said:
Solomon sat on David’s throne on earth, at Jerusalem.

Whose throne did Solomon sit on? The throne of the Lord

1 chronicles 29:23 So Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of his father David

Jerryhuerta said:
Christ has never sat on any throne on earth, let alone at Jerusalem.

I agree, Christ did not sit on earthly man made material throne on earth at his first advent. Nor did Jesus sit on the exact same earthly man made throne that David sat on at his first advent.

So do you believe Jesus will literally sit on the exact same man-made material throne that David and Solomon sat on 3000 years ago? If not, what makes the "throne of David" the "throne of David" then?

I'm really interested to see if/how you'll answer this question.

Jerryhuerta said:
Christ was raised to his Father’s throne, Revelation 3:21, and “comes” to sit on the throne of his glory, conveyed in Matthew 25:31.

I agree. Would you say that the Father's throne would be the throne of the Lord?

Also, are you a non-Trinitarian?

Jerryhuerta said:
Your attempt to connect Daniel 7:13-14 with Matthew 25:31 to assert Christ was seated on David’s throne when he ascended to his Father’s right hand is woefully feeble.

So is claiming Jesus' throne is on earth with no NT scripture to back up your own interpretation of the OT scripture.

Can you provide 1 NT scripture that states Jesus' throne is on earth?

Jerryhuerta said:
We know Christ ascended to his Father at the first advent in fulfillment of Psalms 110:1a

I agree

We also see Jesus has Daniel 7:13 fulfilled along with psalm 110:1a.
matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

We also see Daniel 7:14 fulfilled at Christ's resurrection and ascension.

Daniel 7:14 And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, so that every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away,
and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Luke 19:12 He said, “A nobleman was called away to a distant empire to be crowned king and then return

Luke 24:26 it clearly predicted that the Messiah would have to suffer all these things before entering his glory?”

Ephesians 1:20-21 seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or dominion—not only in this world but also in the world to come

Jerryhuerta said:
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."

So is Christ in heaven or on earth until his enemies are made a footstool?

Jerryhuerta said:
Christ’s scepter extends from Zion to rule in the midst of his enemies as a consequence of when his enemies are made his footstool.

Reign is present tense, thus Jesus is reigning, at the right hand of the Father, until his enemies are made a footstool.

1 Corinthians 15:26 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

The author of Hebrews verifies the Son is God. In doing so he connects the throne of God as the throne of the Son.

Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Jerryhuerta said:
Matthew 25:31-32 connects with Revelation 19

Where is the throne in revelation 19?

Jerryhuerta said:
When Christ returns, he fulfills the antitypes of the autumnal festivals of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, which is exemplified by Matthew 25:31-32 and Daniel 7:13-14.

So you don't believe Jesus fulfilled the day of atonement yet?

keras · Apr 11, 2019

claninja said:
This is quite a generic rebuttal that contains no evidence for your position. I could just as easily and generically say "you don't like the idea of God's plan for His people" just because we disagree on interpretation, but that is not how we learn.

Well then; what is it that God wants, do you think?
Originally He chose a man, Abraham who proved his faith to God and was promised to be the father of many nations. This has clearly happened now.
But it is the aspect of FAITH, that denotes the true people of God. Galatians 3:26-29

It is those who do as Abraham did and stand firm during the forthcoming trials and testing times, 1 Peter 4:12, who endure until the end, Rev 13:10, 1 Corinthians 10:13, +, who are the faithful people of God. His witnesses and His Light to the nations.
They will, as is clearly prophesied; go to live in all of the holy Land, soon after all of that area is cleared and cleansed by the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
The Lord's people, every faithful Christian, from every race, nation and language, Revelation 7:9, Isaiah 66:18b-21, will live there in peace and prosperity. They are seen there when they are conquered by the Anti-Christ. Daniel 7:23-25, Revelation 13:7 & 12:6-17, Zechariah 14:1-2

The probability that the majority of those Christian people are actual descendants of Israel/Ephraim, is not our concern and it is as Paul told Titus 3:9; a useless speculation over genealogies.

Jerryhuerta · Apr 11, 2019

claninja said:
You conveniently left out verses 5-8. the context of those crafting against the nation of Israel to cut them off during the time Psalm 83 was written:

Psalm 83:5-8 For they conspire with one accord; against you they make a covenant—the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites, Gebal and Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre;Asshur also has joined them;they are the strong arm of the children of Lot.

With comments like this, Jerry, you seem to believe that Ephraim never became a multitude of nations or were never called ,"not my people".

So then Ephraim was still God's people during the 700 years of Assyrian exile leading up to Christ?

I disagree, as this would be contrary to scripture. Because Ephraim/Joseph/House of Israel broke the covenant, God divorced them, made them "not his people" and scattered them among the nations.

Hosea 1:4-8 And the Lord said to him, “Call his name Jezreel, for in just a little while I will punish the house of Jehu for the blood of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”She conceived again and bore a daughter. And the Lord said to him, “Call her name No Mercy,a for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all. But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the Lord their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.”
When she had weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son. And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God.”c

Jeremiah 3:8 She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce

So Ephraim, over 700 years of being scattered by the Assyrians, did not become a multitude of nations?

I disagree, as That would be contrary to scripture. It is prophesied that Ephraim would become a multitude of nations.

Genesis 48:19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great. Nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.”

***So if Ephraim was to become a multitude of nations, as well as "not my people" in regards to the special relationship God had with the nation Israel, then what would that make them? That would make them gentiles and we can confirm this with NT scripture.

For Paul has the gathering of gentiles as fulfilling hosea 1:10 and hosea 2:23. Thus by God calling the gentiles, he fulfills His promise to Ephraim to gather them with Judah under ONE HEAD who is Christ.

Romans 9:24-26 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

How so, Jerry? How does God including gentiles into the body of Christ maintain the promises and prophecies to Israel are based on works and not grace?

Restored how, jerry? restored to the old covenantal status under the Mosaic law or restored to God through the new covenant?

The phenomenon that Ephraim becomes a company of nation is in the last days according to Genesis 49.

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days…. Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall… and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel) Genesis 49:1, 22, 24 KJV

Remember, fruitfulness is the birthright of fecundity and the shepherd and stone represents Christ, which maintains the company of nations is easily interpreted as the Christian nations that formed after the fall of Rome.The assertions of supersessionism attempt to cut off the tribes of Israel so that only the church is recognized, which is taking council with the enemy.

Jerryhuerta · Apr 11, 2019

claninja said:
When David wrote psalm 16 he spoke concerning the resurrection of Christ because he knew that God would set one of his descendants on throne.

Acts 2:30-31 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Peter does not connect this to his 2nd coming, he connects it to the resurrection.

You connect Christ sitting on the throne at His 2nd coming, but Peter connects it to the resurrection.

I'll stick with Peter.

Whose throne did Solomon sit on? The throne of the Lord

1 chronicles 29:23 So Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of his father David

I agree, Christ did not sit on earthly man made material throne on earth at his first advent. Nor did Jesus sit on the exact same earthly man made throne that David sat on at his first advent.

So do you believe Jesus will literally sit on the exact same man-made material throne that David and Solomon sat on 3000 years ago? If not, what makes the "throne of David" the "throne of David" then?

I'm really interested to see if/how you'll answer this question.

I agree. Would you say that the Father's throne would be the throne of the Lord?

Also, are you a non-Trinitarian?

So is claiming Jesus' throne is on earth with no NT scripture to back up your own interpretation of the OT scripture.

Can you provide 1 NT scripture that states Jesus' throne is on earth?

I agree

We also see Jesus has Daniel 7:13 fulfilled along with psalm 110:1a.
matthew 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

We also see Daniel 7:14 fulfilled at Christ's resurrection and ascension.

Daniel 7:14 And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, so that every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away,
and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Luke 19:12 He said, “A nobleman was called away to a distant empire to be crowned king and then return

Luke 24:26 it clearly predicted that the Messiah would have to suffer all these things before entering his glory?”

Ephesians 1:20-21 seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or dominion—not only in this world but also in the world to come

So is Christ in heaven or on earth until his enemies are made a footstool?

Reign is present tense, thus Jesus is reigning, at the right hand of the Father, until his enemies are made a footstool.

1 Corinthians 15:26 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

The author of Hebrews verifies the Son is God. In doing so he connects the throne of God as the throne of the Son.

Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Where is the throne in revelation 19?

So you don't believe Jesus fulfilled the day of atonement yet?

In Acts 2:30-31, we know Peter is saying that David foresaw the resurrection of Christ and that he would not see corruption (Psalm 16:10) because Nathan had told him that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne (2 Samuel 7:12-13). It does not say Christ ascended to David’s throne as Amills assert. David’s throne was never in heaven.

And I do not believe that exact temporal conditions have to be met when Christ returns and sits on David’s throne. What is important is that he returns to rule on earth and subdues evil and injustice, which is certainly not the case now. The scriptures are replete that the purpose of his rule is to do just that, which didn’t have to be accomplished in heaven; so, it has to be accomplished on earth. And if not now, it has to be the age to come.

Zechariah 14 prophecies that when Christ returns his feet stand on the mount of Olives in verse 4 and then it declares in verse 9 that Christ “shall be king over all the earth.”

“Judgment is set” at the throne scene in Daniel 7:10. For those who are acquainted with the Hebraic calendar this can only be the antitype of the autumnal festivals of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, preceding Christ’s return. The spring festivals, fulfilled at his first advent, simply do not support Christ receiving his kingdom because they represent him coming as the lamb for slaughter and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as a result of Christ’s ascension, fulfilling only the part where Christ is seated at his Father's side in Psalms 110. The supersessionist perceptions of the Davidic kingdom are in complete conflict with the scriptures because they erroneously view the OT through the lens of the NT covenant. The OT must be viewed primarily through the Old Covenant lens that maintains ethnicity, which is the grammatical-historical intent, and then add to it what NT reveals that the prophets did not see, which doesn’t disturb initial intent. British Israelism maintains the Old Covenant lens in interpreting the OT and then adds to it what the NT reveals. My work on the autumnal Hebraic festival has been published.

claninja · Apr 12, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
The phenomenon that Ephraim becomes a company of nation is in the last days according to Genesis 49.

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days…. Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall… and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel) Genesis 49:1, 22, 24 KJV

The "last days" or "end of the ages" was occurring during the first century

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Acts 2:15-17 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

1 peter 4:7 The end of all things is near

1 john 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Thus the 700 year period from the Assyrian exile unto the first century, would have fulfilled Ephraim becoming a multitude of nations.

claninja · Apr 13, 2019

keras said:
Originally He chose a man, Abraham who proved his faith to God and was promised to be the father of many nations. This has clearly happened now.
But it is the aspect of FAITH, that denotes the true people of God. Galatians 3:26-29

I agree. Who argued otherwise?

keras said:
It is those who do as Abraham did and stand firm during the forthcoming trials and testing times, 1 Peter 4:12, who endure until the end, Rev 13:10, 1 Corinthians 10:13, +, who are the faithful people of God. His witnesses and His Light to the nations.

I agree. Who argued otherwise?

keras said:
They will, as is clearly prophesied; go to live in all of the holy Land, soon after all of that area is cleared and cleansed by the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
The Lord's people, every faithful Christian, from every race, nation and language, Revelation 7:9, Isaiah 66:18b-21, will live there in peace and prosperity. They are seen there when they are conquered by the Anti-Christ. Daniel 7:23-25, Revelation 13:7 & 12:6-17, Zechariah 14:1-2

can you provide even 1 NT scripture that specifically states the present earthly physical land of Israel is the eternal promise land to prove your interpretation of the OT is correct?

keras said:
The probability that the majority of those Christian people are actual descendants of Israel/Ephraim, is not our concern and it is as Paul told Titus 3:9; a useless speculation over genealogies.

I agree. Those in favor of genetics and genealogies can see how easy it is for God to turn stones into children of Abraham, thus making their arguments null.

Matthew 3:9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

What does any of this have to do with your initial statement, that you still have not supported with scripture?

claninja · Apr 13, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
In Acts 2:30-31, we know Peter is saying that David foresaw the resurrection of Christ and that he would not see corruption (Psalm 16:10) because Nathan had told him that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne (2 Samuel 7:12-13). It does not say Christ ascended to David’s throne as Amills assert.

Peter associates David having a descendant on the throne with the resurrection. Maybe if you could somehow show in Acts 2 where Peter associates David having a descendant on the throne with the 2nd coming, then I will gladly concede.

Jerryhuerta said:
David’s throne was never in heaven.

And I do not believe that exact temporal conditions have to be met when Christ returns and sits on David’s throne.

So you don't believe Jesus will literally sit on the same throne as David did some 3,000 years ago.

Jerryhuerta said:
What is important is that he returns to rule on earth and subdues evil and injustice, which is certainly not the case now.

I disagree.

Jesus is presently the ruler of the kings of the earth
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Reign is present tense, thus Jesus was presently reigning when Paul wrote 1 corinthians.
1 corinthians 15:26 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil which he triumphed over through the cross.
Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

1 John 3:8 The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Jerryhuerta said:
Zechariah 14 prophecies that when Christ returns his feet stand on the mount of Olives in verse 4 and then it declares in verse 9 that Christ “shall be king over all the earth.”

Interestingly enough, Jesus' feet did stand on the mount of olives when he was given all authority in heaven and on earth and ascended to the throne in heaven.

Matthew 28:16 Meanwhile, the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain Jesus had designated
Acts 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is near the city, a Sabbath day’s journey away

Jesus has all authority over heaven and earth and is presently reigning as ruler over the kings of the earth.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

1 corinthians 15:26 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth

Jesus was given all dominion in this age and the age to come.

Ephesians 1:20-21 which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

Jerryhuerta said:
“Judgment is set” at the throne scene in Daniel 7:10.

Jesus associates the "now" judgement of this world with his death, resurrection, and ascension.

Judgment 12:31-32 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Jerryhuerta said:
The OT must be viewed primarily through the Old Covenant lens that maintains ethnicity

Hate to break it to you, but the old covenant ended.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Jerryhuerta said:
British Israelism maintains the Old Covenant lens in interpreting the OT and then adds to it what the NT reveals.

Ah, so you appear to interpret the bible through the shadow and then adding Jesus after that?

colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law is only a shadow of the good things coming, not the realities themselves.

Jerryhuerta said:
For those who are acquainted with the Hebraic calendar this can only be the antitype of the autumnal festivals of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, preceding Christ’s return. The spring festivals, fulfilled at his first advent, simply do not support Christ receiving his kingdom because they represent him coming as the lamb for slaughter and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as a result of Christ’s ascension, fulfilling only the part where Christ is seated at his Father's side in Psalms 110.

So it appears you don't believe the day of atonement has yet been fulfilled? Well, I completely disagree.

Hebrews 9:23-28 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Notice atonement is present tense, not future.
Hebrews 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.

keras · Apr 14, 2019

claninja said:
What does any of this have to do with your initial statement, that you still have not supported with scripture?

Malachi 3:6-7 I; the Lord do not change and you, [my People] have not ceased to be the children of Jacob. Ever since the time of your forefathers, you have been wayward and have not kept My Laws. But if you return to Me, I shall return to you.

This is proof that it will be actual descendants of Jacob, who will return to their heritage. Paul clearly states that they will be Christians, who are now peoples of every race, nation and language, but still Israelites! And they will live in the holy Land. Romans 9:24-26
Further proof is in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where the holy people of God are there when the AC conquers them, then Revelation 12:6-17 describes their separation into 2 groups.

Jerryhuerta · Apr 14, 2019

claninja said:
The "last days" or "end of the ages" was occurring during the first century

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Acts 2:15-17 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

1 peter 4:7 The end of all things is near

1 john 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Thus the 700 year period from the Assyrian exile unto the first century, would have fulfilled Ephraim becoming a multitude of nations.

As I said, Ephraim becomes a company of nation is in the last days according to Genesis 49.

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days…. Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall… and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel) Genesis 49:1, 22, 24 KJV

Hebrews 9:26, Acts 2:15-17, 1 Corinthians 10:11 and etcetera maintain this age as the last days, not the past Mosaic age, your perception notwithstanding.

Jerryhuerta · Apr 14, 2019

claninja said:
Peter associates David having a descendant on the throne with the resurrection. Maybe if you could somehow show in Acts 2 where Peter associates David having a descendant on the throne with the 2nd coming, then I will gladly concede.

So you don't believe Jesus will literally sit on the same throne as David did some 3,000 years ago.

I disagree.

Jesus is presently the ruler of the kings of the earth
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Reign is present tense, thus Jesus was presently reigning when Paul wrote 1 corinthians.
1 corinthians 15:26 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil which he triumphed over through the cross.
Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

1 John 3:8 The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Interestingly enough, Jesus' feet did stand on the mount of olives when he was given all authority in heaven and on earth and ascended to the throne in heaven.

Matthew 28:16 Meanwhile, the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain Jesus had designated
Acts 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, which is near the city, a Sabbath day’s journey away

Jesus has all authority over heaven and earth and is presently reigning as ruler over the kings of the earth.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

1 corinthians 15:26 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth

Jesus was given all dominion in this age and the age to come.

Ephesians 1:20-21 which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

Jesus associates the "now" judgement of this world with his death, resurrection, and ascension.

Judgment 12:31-32 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Hate to break it to you, but the old covenant ended.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Ah, so you appear to interpret the bible through the shadow and then adding Jesus after that?

colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law is only a shadow of the good things coming, not the realities themselves.

So it appears you don't believe the day of atonement has yet been fulfilled? Well, I completely disagree.

Hebrews 9:23-28 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Notice atonement is present tense, not future.
Hebrews 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.

There will be no interruption of the increase of peace in Christ’s government, which substantiates this is not the age of Christ’s government.

Isaiah 9
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. ESV

In Zechariah 14, when Christ stands upon the Mount of Olives, he comes to fight against the nations that come against him and comes with his saints. Again, you are incorrect.

And the ruler of this world still roams the earth. Again, you are incorrect.

1 Peter 5
8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Tell us, how does Hebrew 9:23-28 substantiate the antitype of the day of atonement occurred at the first advent? I doesn't. Verse 24 has Christ enter the heavenly temple to atone for sin, which was done daily before the first compartment in the temple made according to the pattern, not the second. It was in the second compartment where the day of atonement occurred, which was performed once a year, in the autumnal months. Again, you are incorrect.

claninja · Apr 14, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
s I said, Ephraim becomes a company of nation is in the last days according to Genesis 49.

correct

Jerryhuerta said:
Hebrews 9:26, Acts 2:15-17, 1 Corinthians 10:11 and etcetera maintain this age as the last days, not the past Mosaic age, your perception notwithstanding.

The spirit was poured out in the last days
Acts 2:15-27 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

Paul states the end of the ages had come upon them.
1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall

The author of hebrews states Jesus spoke to them in the last days
Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Peter states the end of all things is at hand
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand;

John stated that they had heard in the past the antichrist is coming, and NOW many have come, that is how they knew it was the last hour
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour

James stated the coming of the Lord was at hand
James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

James states the judge "is standing" at the door. "is standing" is present tense. In order for James to say that, he must have been seeing the signs as described in the olivet discourse
James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very door.

Your generic argument does not surmount the evidence of the NT that the apostles believed they were living in the last days.

Additionally, 700 years, from the time of the Assyrian exile to the time of Christ is plenty of time for Ephraim to become a multitude of nations thus fulfilling Genesis 48. We know this as the descendants of Noah became many nations in a period of about 400 years from Noah to Abraham (genesis 10-11)

claninja · Apr 14, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
There will be no interruption of the increase of peace in Christ’s government, which substantiates this is not the age of Christ’s government.

Isaiah 9
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. ESV

Christ gave us his peace, and it will never end. However, you seem to be looking for a peace that the world gives.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled; do not be afraid

Jerryhuerta said:
In Zechariah 14, when Christ stands upon the Mount of Olives, he comes to fight against the nations that come against him and comes with his saints. Again, you are incorrect.

Through the cross and his ascension to the highest place of authority, Jesus triumphed over his enemies.

Acts 4:25-27 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of Your servant,b our father David:
‘Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’cIn fact, in this very city Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

Colossians 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

From the Cross, Jesus began to reign from the right hand of the Father until his enemies are made a footstool.

1 corinthians 15:25-26 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Ephesians 1:22 And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church

Jerryhuerta said:
And the ruler of this world still roams the earth. Again, you are incorrect.

1 Peter 5
8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Where did I say Satan doesn't roam the earth? Strawman arguments are easy to defeat.

Satan was cast out as the ruler of the world by the Power of Christ

John 12:31-32 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Jesus is the king of this world.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:20-21 That he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Do you believe Satan currently has more authority over this world than Jesus does?

Jerryhuerta said:
Tell us, how does Hebrew 9:23-28 substantiate the antitype of the day of atonement occurred at the first advent? I doesn't. Verse 24 has Christ enter the heavenly temple to atone for sin, which was done daily before the first compartment in the temple made according to the pattern, not the second. It was in the second compartment where the day of atonement occurred, which was performed once a year, in the autumnal months. Again, you are incorrect.

You are simply incorrect

Holy places is plural and includes God’s presence. This would point to the Holy of Holies.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

High priest enters YEARLY into the holy places. It doesn't mention daily, thus it is clearly pointing to the day of atonement.
Hebrews 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

Jerryhuerta · Apr 16, 2019

claninja said:
correct

The spirit was poured out in the last days
Acts 2:15-27 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

Paul states the end of the ages had come upon them.
1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall

The author of hebrews states Jesus spoke to them in the last days
Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Peter states the end of all things is at hand
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand;

John stated that they had heard in the past the antichrist is coming, and NOW many have come, that is how they knew it was the last hour
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour

James stated the coming of the Lord was at hand
James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

James states the judge "is standing" at the door. "is standing" is present tense. In order for James to say that, he must have been seeing the signs as described in the olivet discourse
James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very door.

Your generic argument does not surmount the evidence of the NT that the apostles believed they were living in the last days.

Additionally, 700 years, from the time of the Assyrian exile to the time of Christ is plenty of time for Ephraim to become a multitude of nations thus fulfilling Genesis 48. We know this as the descendants of Noah became many nations in a period of about 400 years from Noah to Abraham (genesis 10-11)

Just as in the issue Isaiah 54:3, supersessionists agree that the phase the “last days” refers to our time in agreement with my work.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Hebrews 1… 2. Hath in these last days - In this the final dispensation; or in this dispensation under which the affairs of the world will be wound up.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
Hebrews 1… 2. in these last days—In the oldest manuscripts the Greek is. "At the last part of these days." The Rabbins divided the whole of time into "this age," or "world," and "the age to come" (Heb 2:5; 6:5). The days of Messiah were the transition period or "last part of these days" (in contrast to "in times past"), the close of the existing dispensation, and beginning of the final dispensation of which Christ's second coming shall be the crowning consummation.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
Hebrews 1… 2. Hath in these last days; the gospel day, last, as after the days of the old world, and after the law given to Israel by Moses: the days of the fourth kingdom of the Roman empire, in the height of which Christ came into the world, and at the end of it shall accomplish his kingdom, Daniel 2:40,44.

The “last days” refers to our time, the time since Christ, which maintains Ephraim becomes a company of nations in the inter-advent age in which we live in. Your interpretation is untenable.

Jerryhuerta · Apr 16, 2019

claninja said:
Christ gave us his peace, and it will never end. However, you seem to be looking for a peace that the world gives.

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Matthew 10:34-36 ESV

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." John 18:36

THT maintains the correct view of John 14:27 as pertaining to the church, but Isaiah 9:6-7 pertains to the world, by which the temporal security is restored to both Judah and Israel.

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.' Jeremiah 23:5-6

Christ’s kingdom is not of this world or age, but the one to come.

claninja said:
Through the cross and his ascension to the highest place of authority, Jesus triumphed over his enemies.

Triumphing over his enemies did not make the kingdom of the world the kingdom of Christ.

When the seventh angel blew his trumpet, there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will rule as king forever and ever." Then the 24 leaders, who were sitting on their thrones in God's presence, immediately bowed, worshiped God, and said, "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun ruling as king. The nations were angry, but your anger has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged: to reward your servants, the prophets, your holy people, and those who fear your name, no matter if they are important or unimportant, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." Revelation 11:15-18

The reign of Christ over the kingdom of the world is tied to the resurrection of those in Christ, supersessionism notwithstanding.

claninja said:
Satan was cast out as the ruler of the world by the Power of Christ

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

We wrestle against spiritual wickedness in high places until the kingdom of the world becomes Christ’s.

claninja said:
High priest enters YEARLY into the holy places. It doesn't mention daily, thus it is clearly pointing to the day of atonement.

You are relying on the ESV, I believe, which, like the KJV, mistranslates the plural form of hagia as “holy places.” The ASV translates the word properly.

For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us: Hebrews 9:24 ASV

A “holy place,” hagia, denotes the first compartment where the daily was conducted for individual sin. Hagia is used in 9:2 for the first compartment.

For there was a tabernacle prepared, the first, wherein were the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the Holy place (hagia). Hebrews 9:2 ASV (emphasis added)

In the next verse, hagia (plural) modifies hagion (Holy of holies) and is used for the second compartment, where the day of atonement occurred. The point is that the plural form, hagia, when unaccompanied in Hebrews conveys the first compartment where, year after year, the priest went in to deal with individual sin and not the cleansing of the sanctuary, just as in Hebrews 9:24.

Furthermore, the cleanings of the sanctuary, Day of Atonement, deals corporately with Israel.

The second phase of the sanctuary ministry was the yearly phase, which accomplished the ritual cleansing of the sanctuary and the absolute corporate cleansing of the entire Israeli camp….

Before the high priest could start this ritual or corporate cleansing, he had to be pure himself, so he would off a bullock…. When his sin offering was accepted by God, he would come out and start the ritual of the cleansing of the sanctuary and the entire community…. This corporate cleansing was accomplished through the high Priest’s application of the clean blood, first, on the Most Holy Place furniture….

The Day of Atonement or cleansing was also considered by the children of Israel as symbolic of God’s judgment of the world… I was the day that would determine who would live and who would be “cut off.” Diego D. Sausa, Kippur - the Final Judgment: Apocalyptic Secrets of the Hebrew Sanctuary, The Vision Press (October 30, 2006) 18, 19, 21

The sinners of the corporate body of the visible church do not get cut off until Christ’s return; until then they grow together.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 13:30

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 17, 2019

claninja said: ↑
Christ gave us his peace, and it will never end. However, you seem to be looking for a peace that the world gives.

Jerryhuerta said:
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Matthew 10:34-36 ESV

Jesus was directing that toward the OC 1st century Jews in Judea, not non-Jews.

Ezekiel 38:21 Then will I call against him every terror, declareth Adonay Yahweh.
The sword of every man against his brother shall be;
[Matt 10:34/Revelation 6:4]

Matthew 10:
21"Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child. Children will rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 You will be hated by all men for my name's sake, but he who endures to the end will be saved.
34 "No you should be supposing that I came to be casting Peace upon the land.
Not I came to be casting Peace, but a Sword
Mar 13:12
'And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and father child, and children shall rise up against parents, and shall put them to death,
Luke 12:51 Ye are supposing that Peace I came to give in the land? Nay I am saying to ye, but rather Division:

Matthew 24:16
then those in the Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination of the desolation<2050>, the one being declared by Daniel the prophet, standing where it is not binding, (whoever is reading let him be understanding!)
Then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains
Luke 21:21
then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains;
and those in midst of Her, let them be coming out to country; and those in the countries placed, let them not come be entering into Her
22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written 23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath upon this people.

Revelation 6:4 and there went forth another horse--red, and to him who is sitting upon it, there was given to him to take the peace from the land,
and that one another they may slay, and there was given to him a great sword.
[Ezekiel 38:21]

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury. The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example

Jerryhuerta · Apr 17, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Jesus was directing that toward the OC 1st century Jews in Judea, not non-Jews.

Ezekiel 38:21 Then will I call against him every terror, declareth Adonay Yahweh.
The sword of every man against his brother shall be;
[Matt 10:34/Revelation 6:4]

Matthew 10:
21"Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child. Children will rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 You will be hated by all men for my name's sake, but he who endures to the end will be saved.
34 "No you should be supposing that I came to be casting Peace upon the land.
Not I came to be casting Peace, but a Sword
Mar 13:12
'And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and father child, and children shall rise up against parents, and shall put them to death,
Luke 12:51 Ye are supposing that Peace I came to give in the land? Nay I am saying to ye, but rather Division:

Matthew 24:16
then those in the Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
Mark 13:14
Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination of the desolation<2050>, the one being declared by Daniel the prophet, standing where it is not binding, (whoever is reading let him be understanding!)
Then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains
Luke 21:21
then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains;
and those in midst of Her, let them be coming out to country; and those in the countries placed, let them not come be entering into Her
22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written 23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath upon this people.

Revelation 6:4 and there went forth another horse--red, and to him who is sitting upon it, there was given to him to take the peace from the land,
and that one another they may slay, and there was given to him a great sword.
[Ezekiel 38:21]

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury. The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example

I don't agree with preterism!

claninja · Apr 17, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
The “last days” refers to our time, the time since Christ,

great, so you admit the last days began with Christ's 1st advent. We are in agreement then.

Jerryhuerta said:
Your interpretation is untenable.

The period from Noah to Abraham was roughly 400 years. the descendants of Noah became many nations within that 400 year time span (Genesis 10-11). Thus it is not "untenable" that many of the 10 northern tribes became a multitude of nations over a period of 700 years (Assryian exile to 1st advent).

Jerryhuerta · Apr 17, 2019

claninja said:
great, so you admit the last days began with Christ's 1st advent. We are in agreement then.

The period from Noah to Abraham was roughly 400 years. the descendants of Noah became many nations within that 400 year time span (Genesis 10-11). Thus it is not "untenable" that many of the 10 northern tribes became a multitude of nations over a period of 700 years (Assryian exile to 1st advent).

Genesis 49 substantiates that Joseph, also meaning his descendants, run over the wall in the last days.

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days…. Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall… and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel) Genesis 49:1, 22, 24 KJV

Running over the wall means they grew beyond their borders in the last days, which affirms Ephraim became a company of nations in the intra-advent age.

claninja · Apr 17, 2019

Jerryhuerta said:
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Matthew 10:34-36 ESV

Right, this furthers my point: peace not as the world gives
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled; do not be afraid.

But as he gives
Colossians 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, for to this you were called as members of one body. And be thankful.

Ephesians 2:14-18
For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Jerryhuerta said:
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world." John 18:36

Jerryhuerta said:
Christ’s kingdom is not of this world or age, but the one to come.

It doesn't say "not of this age". It states "not of this world".

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

This same language is used of the disciples, they were "not of this world", and yet they were in the world.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

Jerryhuerta said:
THT maintains the correct view of John 14:27 as pertaining to the church, but Isaiah 9:6-7 pertains to the world, by which the temporal security is restored to both Judah and Israel.

So we agree it pertains to the church. Do those outside of the church experience the peace of Jesus?

unbelievers will get to experience the peace of Christ?

Jerryhuerta said:
Triumphing over his enemies did not make the kingdom of the world the kingdom of Christ.

It made Jesus king of the world. The salvation and power and the kingdom of God and the authority of Christ came when Satan was cast out at Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension.

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

Revelation 12:10 “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down,

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

Jerryhuerta said:
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12
We wrestle against spiritual wickedness in high places until the kingdom of the world becomes Christ’s.

This side steps my question. No one's arguing we don't wrestle against wickedness or powers of darkness. the question was who has greater authority now over this world, Christ or satan?

Jerryhuerta said:
ou are relying on the ESV, I believe, which, like the KJV, mistranslates the plural form of hagia as “holy places.” The ASV translates the word properly.

For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us: Hebrews 9:24 ASV

The adjective "hagia" can be used as singular or plural (1 corinthians 7:14) so in order determine what is the correct form all we need to know is where was the location of God's presence. Was God's presence in the holy place or the most holy place?

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf

Christ past the through the holy place and entered into the most holy place, God's presence.

Jerryhuerta said:
A “holy place,” hagia, denotes the first compartment where the daily was conducted for individual sin. Hagia is used in 9:2 for the first compartment.

For there was a tabernacle prepared, the first, wherein were the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the Holy place (hagia). Hebrews 9:2 ASV (emphasis added)

was God's presence in the holy place or the most holy place?

Jerryhuerta said:
Furthermore, the cleanings of the sanctuary, Day of Atonement, deals corporately with Israel.

The second phase of the sanctuary ministry was the yearly phase, which accomplished the ritual cleansing of the sanctuary and the absolute corporate cleansing of the entire Israeli camp….

Before the high priest could start this ritual or corporate cleansing, he had to be pure himself, so he would off a bullock…. When his sin offering was accepted by God, he would come out and start the ritual of the cleansing of the sanctuary and the entire community…. This corporate cleansing was accomplished through the high Priest’s application of the clean blood, first, on the Most Holy Place furniture….

The Day of Atonement or cleansing was also considered by the children of Israel as symbolic of God’s judgment of the world… I was the day that would determine who would live and who would be “cut off.” Diego D. Sausa, Kippur - the Final Judgment: Apocalyptic Secrets of the Hebrew Sanctuary, The Vision Press (October 30, 2006) 18, 19, 21

It almost seems like your ignoring "high priest" and "yearly" in order to make your argument work, which seems inappropriate. the high priest entered the holy of holies yearly for the day of atonement. This is obviously pointing to Christ fulfilling the day of atonement. The author of hebrews did not say daily, weekly or monthly, he stated yearly. you are simply incorrect.

Hebrews 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

Christ's death redeems those who committed sin under the first covenant: Israel.
Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant

Christ became the faithful high priest to make atone for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:19 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.

Jerryhuerta said:
The Day of Atonement or cleansing was also considered by the children of Israel as symbolic of God’s judgment of the world…

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

Replacement Theology Refuted

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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