Annulments (?)

PeterDona · Apr 17, 2019

Yes, I am still in the conversion process. Going to be assumed into the church, not this coming saturday, but some sunday soon.

But I have this question concerning the view on marriage. Maybe someone will remember, that I am strictly marriage permanence, after a long study of selected scriptures I believe that is what the Bible teaches, and also what the Catholic Church teaches.

But then there is the question of annulments. As I understand it, the Church can not annul a marriage, but they can declare that there was never a marriage. So it is not like a "divorce" in its nature, and the Church does not believe that it has the authority to loose what God has joined together - or does it?

Example in this "journey home", the young woman tells that she got married when she was very young - too young, and the marriage was annulled. (go to 13:00 minutes

Now maybe not everybody can follow me here, but I believe in strict marriage permanence, and actually a person who is in a second "marriage" is according to Jesus in a state of adultery, and is disqualified from the kingdom of heaven.

So how is it that the Church can handle such a question like that? Is age a reason to say, "no God never joined you"? I do not see that anywhere in the Bible, and as I understand it, in this case it was pretty much free will.

Please understand that I am not after this woman, this was just an example from the "journey home" program, and actually not the first time I hear people tell about a marriage being annulled, where afterwards I am left puzzled what was the real basis for that annulment.

thecolorsblend · Apr 17, 2019

The Church recognizes that there are circumstances where marriage between a man and a woman never actually existed. There can be any number of causes for that. The Church teaches that divorce isn't possible. When you're married, you're married until at least one of you passes away.

Simply asking for a Decree of Nullity isn't the same as actually getting it. There have been many times when the Church declares that a given marriage was valid and that the people cannot marry someone else. A tribunal will review the case for a decree and then investigate as much as they can. It's not a fast process.

chevyontheriver · Apr 17, 2019

PeterDona said:
Yes, I am still in the conversion process. Going to be assumed into the church, not this coming saturday, but some sunday soon.

But I have this question concerning the view on marriage. Maybe someone will remember, that I am strictly marriage permanence, after a long study of selected scriptures I believe that is what the Bible teaches, and also what the Catholic Church teaches.

But then there is the question of annulments. As I understand it, the Church can not annul a marriage, but they can declare that there was never a marriage. So it is not like a "divorce" in its nature, and the Church does not believe that it has the authority to loose what God has joined together - or does it?

Example in this "journey home", the young woman tells that she got married when she was very young - too young, and the marriage was annulled. (go to 13:00 minutes

Now maybe not everybody can follow me here, but I believe in strict marriage permanence, and actually a person who is in a second "marriage" is according to Jesus in a state of adultery, and is disqualified from the kingdom of heaven.

So how is it that the Church can handle such a question like that? Is age a reason to say, "no God never joined you"? I do not see that anywhere in the Bible, and as I understand it, in this case it was pretty much free will.

Please understand that I am not after this woman, this was just an example from the "journey home" program, and actually not the first time I hear people tell about a marriage being annulled, where afterwards I am left puzzled what was the real basis for that annulment.

There isn't a lot of detail there about the canonical basis for the annulment. What IS necessary for a valid marriage is for both man and woman to freely and competently choose to marry. Did they? She didn't think so. The marriage tribunal didn't think so. But there isn't enough for you or I to sort of re-try the annulment case. WE don't know.

There are some situations for annulment, like the 'inappropriate contentea' situation referenced by Jesus. It does not mean 'adultery' but is more like incest in the Biblical scenario, something that one would think was totally obvious, but it must have happened enough to be spelled out in one of the gospels. There may be annulments for inadequate reasons, which would be bad, but there are annulments for proper reasons, and that is allowed. Which is this case? I can't tell. But then I don't have the authority to judge the case. I can be suspicious that some annulments are specious, but I know some are valid.

GodsGrace101 · Apr 17, 2019

PeterDona said:
Yes, I am still in the conversion process. Going to be assumed into the church, not this coming saturday, but some sunday soon.

But I have this question concerning the view on marriage. Maybe someone will remember, that I am strictly marriage permanence, after a long study of selected scriptures I believe that is what the Bible teaches, and also what the Catholic Church teaches.

But then there is the question of annulments. As I understand it, the Church can not annul a marriage, but they can declare that there was never a marriage. So it is not like a "divorce" in its nature, and the Church does not believe that it has the authority to loose what God has joined together - or does it?

Example in this "journey home", the young woman tells that she got married when she was very young - too young, and the marriage was annulled. (go to 13:00 minutes

Now maybe not everybody can follow me here, but I believe in strict marriage permanence, and actually a person who is in a second "marriage" is according to Jesus in a state of adultery, and is disqualified from the kingdom of heaven.

So how is it that the Church can handle such a question like that? Is age a reason to say, "no God never joined you"? I do not see that anywhere in the Bible, and as I understand it, in this case it was pretty much free will.

Please understand that I am not after this woman, this was just an example from the "journey home" program, and actually not the first time I hear people tell about a marriage being annulled, where afterwards I am left puzzled what was the real basis for that annulment.

I admire what you've said above.
There is nothing better than marrying and staying married and getting old together. This is real love.

The CC does allow divorce in extreme cases...like mistreatment (physical), adultery by the spouse, squandering of the families income, that's all I could think of right now.

As to annulment..you're right. An annulment declares that a marriage never existed to begin with.

One reason might be age--the reason being that the person might have been coerced, or, in any case, did not understand what they were doing.

Another reason for an annullment would be a lie to become married. For instance, a woman might say that she desires a family, and then after the marriage the husband discovers she does not want children. The marriage was born out of false pretenses.

If you want more detail you really need to speak to a specialist in the Canon law...

Also, I'd like to say that YOU are more conservative in your beliefs than the CC. Jesus said divorce was possible only in the matter of adultery...the CC does have other reasons why divorce would be allowed.
And, as you may know, in some circumstances, communion is now given to remarrieds.

chevyontheriver · Apr 17, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
And, as you may know, in some circumstances, communion is now given to remarrieds.

That will end as soon as we get a new and faithful pope who throws out chapter eight of Amoris Letitcia. For someone to be validly married to one person and having sex with another person, that person should not present himself or her self for the Eucharist. That's just wrong. We call it scandal, to be living in a continual state of adultery and saying to God that you have a right to communion. Enough.

Divorce may be allowed for exceptional reason, but not divorce and then remarriage. If one's first marriage never actually was, that is a different thing. But to marry validly, then divorce, one should remain single and chastely celibate.

GodsGrace101 · Apr 17, 2019

chevyontheriver said:
That will end as soon as we get a new and faithful pope who throws out chapter eight of Amoris Letitcia. For someone to be validly married to one person and having sex with another person, that person should not present himself or her self for the Eucharist. That's just wrong. We call it scandal, to be living in a continual state of adultery and saying to God that you have a right to communion. Enough.

Divorce may be allowed for exceptional reason, but not divorce and then remarriage. If one's first marriage never actually was, that is a different thing. But to marry validly, then divorce, one should remain single and chastely celibate.

I was appalled TTYTT.
Some of my friends tell me this is not a change in doctrine. !! What? They're just trying hard to stay calm.

I just don't know how we go "back". It seems like steps taken forward never reverse themselves. (if you could call this a step forward).

Something happened on Friday that involved Pope Benedict and Amoris Laetitia, but I don't know what exactly....

chevyontheriver · Apr 17, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
I was appalled TTYTT.
Some of my friends tell me this is not a change in doctrine. !! What? They're just trying hard to stay calm.

It is a misbegotten attempt at a change of doctrine. Kind of like trying to change the doctrine of gravity. It only hurts the people who try, or those who love them. It doesn't actually change the reality.

I just don't know how we go "back". It seems like steps taken forward never reverse themselves. (if you could call this a step forward).

We don't need to 'go back' but merely recognize that the absurdity of the changes proposed by the 'Friends of Francis' are simply and totally impossible. The next pope simply rips chapter 8 from Amoris Letitcia and the problem is permanently solved.

Something happened on Friday that involved Pope Benedict and Amoris Laetitia, but I don't know what exactly....

Don't know. Haven't heard. He said something about the abuse crisis last week, breaking a long silence. I wish he would advise pope Francis more, because Francis is not nearly as competent a theologian as Benedict is.

thecolorsblend · Apr 17, 2019

chevyontheriver said:
Don't know. Haven't heard. He said something about the abuse crisis last week, breaking a long silence. I wish he would advise pope Francis more, because Francis is not nearly as competent a theologian as Benedict is.

I remember people, esp the radtrads, sweating bullets when Francis became Pope. One major objection was that they thought he was an intellectual lightweight. Not a true successor to Benedict in that respect.

At the time, I thought they were worrying too much.

But now...

chevyontheriver · Apr 17, 2019

thecolorsblend said:
I remember people, esp the radtrads, sweating bullets when Francis became Pope. One major objection was that they thought he was an intellectual lightweight. Not a true successor to Benedict in that respect.

At the time, I thought they were worrying too much.

But now...

One can be an intellectual lightweight and still be a decent pope. Shoot, I could manage intellectually as pope. I would keep my mouth as closed as possible and we would all be OK as long as I didn't say much at all.

Frankly, only a small handful of people come close intellectually to Benedict, and I doubt if any of them were cardinals. So it was a given we would get an intellectual inferior as the next pope. That's not the problem I have with pope Francis.

ChicanaRose · Apr 17, 2019

PeterDona said:
Please understand that I am not after this woman, this was just an example from the "journey home" program, and actually not the first time I hear people tell about a marriage being annulled, where afterwards I am left puzzled what was the real basis for that annulment.

For example, if a young couple marries in Vegas without proper marriage prep education (usually takes 6 months in a Catholic church), they may not understand the conditions of the marriage contract they are entering into.
I don't know if you knew this from RCIA, but the civil divorce rate for Catholics is half the national rate to begin with.

PeterDona · Apr 17, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
For example, if a young couple marries in Vegas without proper marriage prep education (usually takes 6 months in a Catholic church), they may not understand the conditions of the marriage contract they are entering into.
I don't know if you knew this from RCIA, but the civil divorce rate for Catholics is half the national rate to begin with.

Yes I do remember that in the marriage material I received from my local Church, there is a wording like "full and free willed consent". And well that sounds reasonable. But - as a Bible student I have not found such a thought in the Bible, that marriage should be entered into freely. I mean, in the Law of Moses there are discussions of men selling their daughters into marriage. Would such a sale constitute a full and free consent?

And I think it is important because of Jesus words "what therefore God has joined together, let not man separate". I can understand how we can look at cases like a 2nd marriage with a living first spouse being adultery, because surely God would not be the partaker of an adultery.

But how is it that we can say that "free will" and "understanding what you are doing" must be part of the game, and if not then God did not join the 2 together?

You may say, well but that is what the Church says, so that ends the case. OK then, but when did the Church then make that ruling? Where does it come from?

We had one whole evening of marriage teaching in the RCIA. Wonderful, really. A young vietnamese lady who was so good at putting things together.

paul becke · Apr 17, 2019

I can tell you the church's blessing in the case of an annulment - presumably, unless irresponsibly dispensed 'with cornflake packets' - is felt very real and palpably felt.

PeterDona · Apr 17, 2019

paul becke said:
I can tell you the church's blessing in the case of an annulment - presumably, unless irresponsibly dispensed 'with cornflake packets' - is felt very real and palpably felt.

This is your personal experience?
I am still at a point where I do not understand the Church's authority in a big way. I was trying to google "does the catholic church have authority to annul marriages". And the most important hit I got was a statement that the catholic annulment is only a declaration, not a legal action.
But I guess if God backs up the Church like that, then it is really great.

thecolorsblend · Apr 17, 2019

PeterDona said:
This is your personal experience?
I am still at a point where I do not understand the Church's authority in a big way. I was trying to google "does the catholic church have authority to annul marriages". And the most important hit I got was a statement that the catholic annulment is only a declaration, not a legal action.
But I guess if God backs up the Church like that, then it is really great.

I imagine that the tribunals have their work cut out for them in these dreary times in which we live because of messed up most people's understanding of marriage is.

People gripe and complain about how long marriage prep lasts in the Catholic Church. But since the Church is who will have to decide if a given union ever truly was a marriage, it's reasonable for them to do all in their power to teach people about marriage ahead of time so that a Decree of Nullity won't have to be considered later on.

I should say that the Church does not annul a marriage as such. She merely determines whether or not a given union constituted a marriage or not. If it was a valid marriage, the Church has no authority to interfere with that.

We must remember that the husband and the wife confer the sacrament of Matrimony upon each other.

PeterDona · Apr 18, 2019

I had an impression some months ago in the catholic church after talking to a married woman in the coffee after service - it is as though in the catholic church, marriage is "right". It feels like it is more touchable, and that marriage is ok and is right.

One of the impressions that has led me to feel ok about trusting the Catholic Church.

chevyontheriver · Apr 18, 2019

PeterDona said:
I had an impression some months ago in the catholic church after talking to a married woman in the coffee after service - it is as though in the catholic church, marriage is "right". It feels like it is more touchable, and that marriage is ok and is right.

One of the impressions that has led me to feel ok about trusting the Catholic Church.

Not that marriage is wrong everywhere else, but yes, there is something about the theology of marriage that the Catholic Church really does get right. You see this in John Paul II and his 'theology of the body'. If you have not read 'Love and Responsibility by JPII you might snag a copy and read it. A treat, particularly in a culture that is becoming blind to what was probably obvious to every first century Jew.

Love and Responsibility

PeterDona · Apr 18, 2019

chevyontheriver said:
Not that marriage is wrong everywhere else, but yes, there is something about the theology of marriage that the Catholic Church really does get right. You see this in John Paul II and his 'theology of the body'. If you have not read 'Love and Responsibility by JPII you might snag a copy and read it. A treat, particularly in a culture that is becoming blind to what was probably obvious to every first century Jew.

Love and Responsibility

Thanks for the link, already ordered it

paul becke · Apr 19, 2019

PeterDona said:
This is your personal experience?
I am still at a point where I do not understand the Church's authority in a big way. I was trying to google "does the catholic church have authority to annul marriages". And the most important hit I got was a statement that the catholic annulment is only a declaration, not a legal action.
But I guess if God backs up the Church like that, then it is really great.

'And the most important hit I got was a statement that the catholic annulment is only a declaration, not a legal action.'

That is very interesting and makes sense. The church apparently only blesses the marriage, and that is what I must have felt ; my wife, I think, also, although to a lesser extent, as she had never really got over her first marriage and divorce.

My wife was a baptised Anglican and didn't formally become a Catholic, but used to attend Mass with me on Saturdays and always said her prayers at night.

Our cat, Percy, used to come and join me, when I went in the bedroom to say the Office, sitting there quite reverently, so, if a little eccentrically, the faith was a nice family thing to a certain extent. But Percy didn't have much staying power, and not long after he saw that I'd duly noted his presence, he would 'slope' off.

Nevertheless, I was grateful for his input - perhaps he was grateful for mine, is another way of seeing it ! I expect God was a little tickled, too, though I suppose he would have had an 'inside track'.

PeterDona · Apr 19, 2019

paul becke said:
my wife, I think, also, although to a lesser extent, as she had never really got over her first marriage and divorce.

Yes it is uncomforting how a wrong idea becomes ingrained in our culture. The annulment statement is really a statement that there was never a marriage. That idea has to penetrate our mind. So the socalled "divorce" was just a legal action to end an illegal situation. I mean, your wife was never lawfully married to the person, so your marriage with her is really her first and only marriage.

paul becke · Apr 20, 2019

PeterDona said:
Yes it is uncomforting how a wrong idea becomes ingrained in our culture. The annulment statement is really a statement that there was never a marriage. That idea has to penetrate our mind. So the socalled "divorce" was just a legal action to end an illegal situation. I mean, your wife was never lawfully married to the person, so your marriage with her is really her first and only marriage.

Yes. You are correct. Also, in that a lawful marriage, according to 'Church law', cannot be cancelled/annulled. The second 'illegal' that you mention, of course, being under Church law. It has caused bitterness on the part of chidren of subsequently divorced parents, since it was not made clear that they had, indeed, been 'legally' married under the secular law, which the Church has always accepted - just not in line with the Catholic paradigm for Christian marriage.

It might have been validated by a Protestant church, but that would have to be looked into, like all desired annulments by the Church's annulment authority.

I mean, technically, I believe, the partners marry each other, the only such sacrament*, but what I wanted to point out was that, in spite of that, the God's blessing via the Church, was felt very strongly when my wife and I married. We were very content together - she was very stoical - for thirty plus years, once she had got over a health problem.

*Baptism can also technically be performed by a lay-person.

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