Is it Ethical to be fired for stating Christian beliefs

FireDragon76

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Only--possibly--for Christians. It is not because of actions that an unbeliever is condemned. Nobody is saved by works, nobody is condemned by works, but only by faith or lack thereof, respectively.

Scripture speaks of specific actions to believers--warning believers that their behavior counts.

I bet if Folau had simply said "unless you believe in Jesus Christ, you are dead in your sins" it would be even worse.

What we really have is a conflict of worldviews. You are correct that sometimes perhaps its better to say nothing than to say something that is going to be misunderstood, however.
 
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Occams Barber

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What ways are you referring to exactly?

There is a string of behaviours which are legally and/or socially unacceptable within broader society but are deemed allowable in a Christian context or demanded, by Christians, as a right.

These include:
  • the right to employment discrimination
  • the right to not provide legal marriage services to certain groups
  • misogyny (promoting the subservient status of women)
  • misogyny/discrimination (banning women from leadership roles)
  • the right to deny service to selected groups (the 'wedding cake' issue)
  • the right to have it's teachings included as 'science' with no rational justification
  • the right to refuse vaccination on spurious 'religious' grounds
  • the right to withhold medical treatment from children on religious grounds
  • the right to denigrate certain groups based on purely religious grounds
  • a variety of taxation privileges
Given time I'm sure I could find more.
OB
 
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FireDragon76

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There is a string of behaviours which are legally and/or socially unacceptable within broader society but are deemed allowable in a Christian context or demanded, by Christians, as a right.

These include:
  • the right to employment discrimination
  • the right to not provide legal marriage services to certain groups
  • misogyny (promoting the subservient status of women)
  • misogyny/discrimination (banning women from leadership roles)
  • the right to deny service to selected groups (the 'wedding cake' issue)
  • the right to have it's teachings included as 'science' with no rational justification
  • the right to refuse vaccination on spurious 'religious' grounds
  • the right to withhold medical treatment from children on religious grounds
  • the right to denigrate certain groups based on purely religious grounds
  • a variety of taxation privileges
Given time I'm sure I could find more.
OB


Actually, in my church many of those things are considered unacceptable, so you are painting with a broad brush when you described Christian practices. We don't consider discrimination a Christian right at all.
 
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Occams Barber

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FWIW, I do not agree with Israel Folau's statement. I just am curious why you seem to have no empathy for where he is coming from, and assume the worst possible motives.

According to this article, Mr. Folau's statement was because he is concerned about gay peoples wellbeing, not because he has any personal animus against them:

Israel Folau explains why he said gay people are going to hell

Now, do I agree with that? I believe his motives are as he says, being familiar with that kind of religious culture, even if I think it's a harmful message. I am capable of separating the effect of the message from the motives behind it.

If the message is harmful then the message is harmful. While the motive behind it is interesting the message remains harmful.

Being insulted for 'my own good' is still being insulted.

OB
 
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FireDragon76

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If the message is harmful then the message is harmful. While the motive behind it is interesting the message remains harmful.

Being insulted for 'my own good' is still being insulted.

OB

At least in my country, a message cannot be banned merely for being potentially harmful, or harmful in the abstract. There must be an immanent, certain risk of concrete harm associated with it.

All you are convincing me is that Australians don't really take liberty seriously at all.
 
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Occams Barber

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Actually, in my church many of those things are considered unacceptable, so you are painting with a broad brush when you described Christian practices. We don't consider discrimination a Christian right at all, for instance, it is a sin to be a "respecter of persons" in that manner.

I'm not concerned with the specifics of your particular church. I'm looking at Christianity as a whole. Even within your church some of the Christian Privileges I've listed will be acceptable or expected.
OB
 
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FireDragon76

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I'm not concerned with the specifics of your particular church. I'm looking at Christianity as a whole. Even within your church some of the Christian Privileges I've listed will be acceptable or expected.
OB

If this statement were about any other minority, it would be considered repugnant by most people of any decency. "They are rapists and murders... and some, I'm sure, are good people", being but one prominent example of this sort of rhetoric.

The tax status of our church is due to it being a religious institution, and religious freedom being recognized as a fundamental human right in my country. Nobody gets rich in my church from preaching or teaching, there is no profit as in a commercial business. People engage in ministry for strictly spiritual motivations.
 
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Occams Barber

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At least in my country, a message cannot be banned merely for being potentially harmful, or harmful in the abstract. There must be an immanent, certain risk of concrete harm associated with it.
You just shifted the goalposts. It's no different in my country. I have never suggested a general ban on Christian opinion. I did suggest that Christians should expect push back (societal dissent, disagreement, disapproval)

In the specific case of Folau we're talking about an issue of contractual obligation which would equally apply in your country.

All you are convincing me is that Australians don't really take liberty seriously at all.
Seriously? :)
OB
 
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BNR32FAN

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how would you word, "being gay will send you to hell." in a way that doesn't make it offensive? Hint saying were all worthy of hell for sinning doens't do it, your still saying who they are is a sin, the very thing they are someting they can't change. Be like saying being black is a sin.

Well It doesn’t really matter how I would word it. What matters is how he worded it but just as an example he could’ve said something like it is most unfortunate that those living in homosexuality, adultery, alcoholism, drug addiction, theft, and murder will burn in the lake of fire unless they repent and turn to God. All of us are born into sin and every last one of us must repent and turn to God to be saved. Homosexuality is a choice just like adultery, alcoholism, drug addiction, theft, and murder they are all choices people make. It’s not even remotely similar to racism. According to what I’ve read he didn’t only single out homosexuals but other sinful lifestyles as well like adulterers and alcoholics.

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.

Ephesians 5:3-6

To me what he said is very similar to what Paul said many times.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Only--possibly--for Christians. It is not because of actions that an unbeliever is condemned. Nobody is saved by works, nobody is condemned by works, but only by faith or lack thereof, respectively.

Scripture speaks of specific actions to believers--warning believers that their behavior counts.

These are written for believers.

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.


John 15:1-6


When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21


Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


Matthew 3:10


Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Revelation 21:27


Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.


Ephesians 5:3-6


But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.


Matthew 25:31-46


Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!


Matthew 13:37-43


A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 24:45-51


All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:7-8


Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. “What sorrow awaits the world, because it tempts people to sin. Temptations are inevitable, but what sorrow awaits the person who does the tempting. So if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand or one foot than to be thrown into eternal fire with both of your hands and feet. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.


Matthew 18:3-10
 
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Occams Barber

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If this statement were about any other minority, it would be considered repugnant by most people of any decency. "They are rapists and murders... and some, I'm sure, are good people", being but one prominent example of this sort of rhetoric.
I'm not accusing Christianity of rape and murder (at least not recently). The list covers a range of privileges enjoyed by Christian churches which are not available to the rest of us and would be unacceptable in secular society.
For instance: any church which limits its leadership positions (priest, parson, preacher etc.) to males, is practicing sexual discrimination which would be unacceptable in secular society. This one privilege alone covers a major chunk of Christian denominations.
The tax status of our church is due to it being a religious institution, and religious freedom being recognized as a fundamental human right in my country. Nobody gets rich in my church from preaching or teaching, there is no profit as in a commercial business. People engage in ministry for strictly spiritual motivations.
The fact that your church is a religious institution doesn't explain why it should be tax free. There is no logical connection between freedom (religious or otherwise) and a tax free status. You also have commercial freedom but businesses still pay tax. If a church doesn't make a profit then, like any commercial business, it won't pay tax therefore it doesn't need tax exemption. If it does make a profit then it should pay tax. It should also pay rates/land taxes, income taxes and any other tax it might currently be exempted from.
Artists and musicians could also claim a spiritual motivation for their work - they still pay tax. The nature of a businesses motivation doesn't justify its tax status.
OB
 
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BNR32FAN

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There is a string of behaviours which are legally and/or socially unacceptable within broader society but are deemed allowable in a Christian context or demanded, by Christians, as a right.

These include:
  • the right to employment discrimination
  • the right to not provide legal marriage services to certain groups
  • misogyny (promoting the subservient status of women)
  • misogyny/discrimination (banning women from leadership roles)
  • the right to deny service to selected groups (the 'wedding cake' issue)
  • the right to have it's teachings included as 'science' with no rational justification
  • the right to refuse vaccination on spurious 'religious' grounds
  • the right to withhold medical treatment from children on religious grounds
  • the right to denigrate certain groups based on purely religious grounds
  • a variety of taxation privileges
Given time I'm sure I could find more.
OB

Lol there are many who claim to be Christian but are actually very far from it.

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
‭‭MATTHEW‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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JackRT

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There's a thing I call Christian Privilege where Christianity has been licensed to behave in ways that are unacceptable for the rest of us. Fortunately this appears to be coming to an end.

A fairly large block of my fellow Christians have what could be called an entitlement mentality. For a great many centuries we Christians have had things our own way and have controlled society to such an extent that we have been able to impose our own agenda without challenge. However, when minority groups started demanding and receiving rights that they had previously been denied, rights that Christians held all along, these same Christians felt threatened and some even claimed that they were being persecuted. Rights and freedoms are not part of a zero-sum game. Expanding them does not thereby reduce them for some other group. For example, extending marriage rights to homosexuals has not reduced the rights of heterosexuals in the slightest way. In reality Christians have lost no rights and are not threatened in any meaningful way. In Canada and the USA Christians are certainly not being persecuted.
 
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JackRT

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Homosexuality is a choice just like adultery, alcoholism, drug addiction, theft, and murder they are all choices people make.

In the vast majority of cases homosexuality is not a choice.
 
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BNR32FAN

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In the vast majority of cases homosexuality is not a choice.

Yes I’ve heard that statement before but it doesn’t change the FACT that nobody is forcing them to engage in sexual relations with another person of the same sex. They do it of their own free will.
 
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JackRT

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Yes I’ve heard that statement before but it doesn’t change the FACT that nobody is forcing them to engage in sexual relations with another person of the same sex. They do it of their own free will.

Yes, homosexual attraction and homosexual behavior are two different things.
 
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Occams Barber

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Yes I’ve heard that statement before but it doesn’t change the FACT that nobody is forcing them to engage in sexual relations with another person of the same sex. They do it of their own free will.

Heterosexuals also "engage in sexual relations" of their own free will but you don't appear to have a problem with that.

There is no objective reason to regard homosexual behaviour as a problem. Even your Bible doesn't explain 'why' homosexual behaviour is wrong - it just defines it as wrong for no particular reason ('abomination' is not an explanation).

Making unjustified assertions about homosexuality is another reason to question the qualifications of Christianity as a moral authority.
OB
 
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keith99

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Of course he's denigrating.

As an atheist I don't believe in hell but, if you publicly pronounce that I'm going to hell, you are obviously casting aspersions on my character and suggesting that I am somehow less than others. By making a public statement you are promoting the idea that I am less worthy and effectively opening the door to hatred and discrimination. Folau's statement is at odds with the standards of broader society. As a private individual he's free to have his own opinion. As a representative of Rugby they have every right to expect him to be inclusive or, at least, to be quiet.

Some Christian denominations regard women as subservient to men. If Folau were to state publically that women should not be regarded as equals should this be acceptable to Rugby Australia simply because it's a teaching of his church? Or would we see it as denigrating women?

OB

Saying women are less than the men might go over exceptionally badly with the Rugby followers in Australia since their women's team should qualify for the Olympics as one of the first 4 qualifiers without going to a regional qualifying tournament while their men will be a toss up with Samoa to get the regional qualification and if they fail there will have stiff competition in the final chance to qualify.
 
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keith99

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Heterosexuals also "engage in sexual relations" of their own free will but you don't appear to have a problem with that.

There is no objective reason to regard homosexual behaviour as a problem. Even your Bible doesn't explain 'why' homosexual behaviour is wrong - it just defines it as wrong for no particular reason ('abomination' is not an explanation).

Making unjustified assertions about homosexuality is another reason to question the qualifications of Christianity as a moral authority.
OB

I have this thing about being fair and to be fair to Folau it needs to be pointed out that he did not ignore heterosexual sex that is outside the biblical rules. On that he fares better than many if not most Christians.
 
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keith99

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At least in my country, a message cannot be banned merely for being potentially harmful, or harmful in the abstract. There must be an immanent, certain risk of concrete harm associated with it.

All you are convincing me is that Australians don't really take liberty seriously at all.

Your profile says you are in the U.S. Did I miss something in the thread where there was any reference to the Australian Government taking any action? The actions taken were by his employer because he failed to live up to his contract. Something quite allowable here in the U.S.
 
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