Death, Hell, and the Lake of Fire.

reddogs

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But those are the writings of the Church Fathers, the early leadership of the church. I’m not sure if you are familiar with who they are and of what value their writings are. Maybe you need to do a study on the Church Fathers because you don’t seem to be understanding. When they write of eternal punishment they write with authority.
I have and they were the ones who brought in a lot of the Greek thought and traditions from pagan origin that is confusing people even today. The Bible does not teach that we have an immortal soul that leaves the body at the time of death and heads on for heaven or hell, or purgatory. Yet most people have picked it up because of the Greek and pagan ideas introduced into the church by these ideas and traditions. They simply assume that the belief in the immortality of the soul is taught in the Bible. This idea of an immortal soul co-existing with a mortal body, is foreign to the Bible. It derives mostly from Greek pagan philosophies that gradually entered into the Christian church. The biblical view of human nature is wholistic, not dualistic, or body and soul are not two distinct components, but an indissoluble unity. The soul is simply the animating principle of the body, but you mix in the Greek/pagan ideas and it gets confused. The Greek philosophers Socrates , Plato and Aristotles ideas on the immortality of the soul got picked and then rehashed by Tertullian, Origen Augustine and later Thomas Aquinas which led to the church to adopt the Platonic dualistic view of human nature.
 
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reddogs

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Here is a good explanation by my fathers friend and classmate, Samuele Bacchiocchi..."Egyptians' Belief in the Immortality of the Soul

It is difficult to pinpoint historically the origin of the belief in the immortality of the soul, since all the ancient civilizations held to some forms of conscious life after death. The Greek historian Herodotus, who lived in the fifth century before Christ, tells us in his History that the ancient Egyptians were the first to teach that the soul of man is immortal and separable from the body. At death the soul passes through various animals before being reborn in human form. The cycle was suppose to take three thousand years.2


Nowhere in the ancient world was the concern for the afterlife so deeply felt as in Egypt. The countless tombs unearthed by archaeologists along the Nile offer an eloquent testimony to the Egyptian belief in conscious life after death. They spent an outrageous amount of time and money preparing for life after death. They practiced elaborate ceremonies to prepare the pharaohs for their next life. They constructed massive pyramids and other elaborate tombs filled with luxuries the deceased were supposed to need in the hereafter. The famous Book of The Dead is a collection of ancient Egyptian funerary and ritual texts, which describes in great details how to meet the challenges of the afterlife.


Greek Philosophers Promoted Immortality of the Soul


The Egyptian belief in the immortality of the soul existed centuries before Judaism, Hellenism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. According to Herodotus, eventually the Greeks adopted from the Egyptians the belief in the immortality of the soul. He wrote: "The Egyptians also were the first who asserted the doctrine that the soul of man is immortal. . . . This opinion, some among the Greeks have at different periods of time adopted as their own."3


The Greek philosopher Socrates (470-399 B. C.) traveled to Egypt to consult the Egyptians on their teachings on the immortality of the soul. Upon his return to Greece, he imparted this teaching to his most famous pupil, Plato (428-348 B. C.).


In his book, The Phaedo, Plato recounts Socrates' final conversation with his friends on the last day of his life. He was condemned to die by drinking hemlock for corrupting the youths of Athens by teaching them "atheism," that is, the rejection of the gods. The setting was an Athenian prison and the time the summer of 399 B. C. Socrates spent his last day discussing the origin, nature, and destiny of the human soul with his closest friends.


In the dialogue Socrates repeatedly declares death to be "the separation of the soul from the body" in which it is encased. His language is strikingly similar to that of many Christian churches today. "The soul whose inseparable attribute is life, will never admit of life's opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible. . . . Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death. . . . Death is merely the separation of soul and body."4 In Phaedo, Plato explains that there is a judgement after death for all souls, according to the deeds done in the body. The righteous souls go to heaven and the wicked to hell.5


This teaching found its way first into Hellenistic Judaism especially through the influence of Philo Judaeus (ca. 20 B.C. A. D. 47) and later into Christianity especially through the influence of Tertullian (ca. 155-230), Origen (ca. 185-254), Augustine (354-430), and Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). These writers attempted to blend the Platonic view of the immortality of the soul with the biblical teachings on the resurrection of the body.


Two Groups of Jewish Writers During the Inter-Testament Period


During the inter-Testament period, that is, the four centuries that separate the end of the Old Testament from the beginning of the New Testament, two groups of Jewish Aprocryphal writers appeared. The earlier writers maintained the Old Testament wholistic view of human nature and the belief in Conditional immortality, that is, immortality not as an innate human possession, but as the gift of eternal life given at the resurrection. This line culminated in the Conditionalist witness of the Dead Sea Scroll.6



A later group of Jewish writers were influenced by the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul, prayer for the dead, and denial of the resurrection. These teachings are found in what are known as the Apocrypha of the Old Testament-books that are included in the Catholic Bible, but omitted in the Protestant Bible and in the Hebrew Old Testament. These books include 1 and 2 Esdra, 1, 2, 3, 4 Maccabees, Baruch, additions to Daniel, Judith, The Prayer of Manasseh, Sirach, Tobit, and the Wisdom of Solomon.


The most influential Hellenistic Jewish writer is Philo Judaeus (ca. 20 B.C. A. D. 47). He made a systematic attempt to prove the existence of an inner harmony between Plato and Moses, that is, between Jewish religious thought and Greek philosophy. He taught that man has an irrational soul in common with all living creatures and a rational soul in common with the unbodied souls in the heavens. At the death of the body, the rational souls of the righteous return to the realm of the unbodied heavenly beings, which are soul. By contrast the souls of the wicked will suffer endless punishment.7 Gradually this teaching infiltrated into the Christian Church, which was already influenced by a modified form of Platonism, called Neo-Platonism."...
 
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reddogs

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Here is how Tertullian picked it up..."Innate Immortality Infiltrates the Church

Modified forms of the Platonic view of the immortality of the soul were adopted by Christian writers beginning from the latter part of the second century. The most influential promoters were Tertullian (155-240), Origen (ca. 185-254), Augustine (354-430) and Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). We shall say a few words about each of them.

Tertullian: Eternal Torment

Tertullian is rightly regarded as the founder of Latin theology. He was born is a heathen home in Cathage, North Africa, and received legal training in Rome. He returned to Carthage at the age of forty and embraced the Christian faith after witnessing the courage of martyrs and the life of holiness of Christians. His numerous apologetic, theological, and ascetic works in Latin, have been very influential on Latin Christianity.
Tertullian was the first to formulate the teachings of endless torment for the wicked, by applying the notion of the immortality of the soul to the saved and unsaved. He expressly taught that "the torments of the lost, will be co-eternal with the happiness of the saved."9
Tertullian rejected Plato's teaching of the pre-existence of the souls, but he embraced his teachings that "every soul is immortal." He wrote: "For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance, is held by many . . . I may use therefore, the opinion of Plato, when he declares: 'Every soul is immortal"10 Note that the opinion of Plato is cited to support the belief in the immortality of the soul. No attempt is made to validate such doctrine by the authority of Scripture, obviously because, as we shall see, in the Bible the soul does not exist apart from the body."


 
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reddogs

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Then Origen..."Origen: Universal Restoration

The influence of Platonic dualism is evident especially in the writings of Origen (ca. 185-254), a man who came to be acknowledged as the most accomplished scholar of his generation. He rejected Tertullian's teaching of eternal torment, promoting instead the universal restoration of even the most incorrigible sinners, including the demons and Satan himself. After a period of corrective punishment, all of them will be brought again into ultimate subjection to Christ.
Origen's teaching derives largely from Plato's notion that the soul is an immaterial and immortal substance. In his De Principiis (On the Principle), Origen repeatedly refers to the "soul" as a "substance" which partakes of the "eternal nature" and "lasts for ever." "Every substance which partakes of that eternal nature should last for ever, and be incorruptible and eternal."11
Since the soul partakes of the divine nature and cannot be destroyed, Origen reasoned that the only way moral evil can ultimately eliminated, is for God to restore even the incorrigibly wicked after His "consuming fire . . .throroughly cleanses away the evil."12

Both Tertullian's eternal torment and Origen's cleansing fire, are unbiblical teachings which are fatal to true Christian faith, though in opposite ways. One threatened an eternal punishment that God never decreed and the other promised a universal salvation that God never authorized. In Scripture evil is a reality of this present time, not an inevitable part of eternity. By allowing their mind to be guided by pagan philosophy rather than Scriptural teachings, brilliant men like Tertullian and Origen developed heresies that have undermined Christian beliefs and practices"
 
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reddogs

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Then Augustine..."Augustine Sets the Immortal Soul Teaching for the Middle Ages

Augustine (354-430), Bishop of Hippo, North Africa, is rightly regarded as the most influential Latin Father. His influence on theology was immense, particularly up to the thirteenth century when Thomas Aquinas appeared.

The influence of Augustine was so powerful that he secured the dominance for centuries of the doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul and the eternal torment of the wicked. Once he asked: "What simple and illiterate man or obscured woman that does not believe the immortality of the soul and a future life?"13 It is evident that by that time this belief had become widely accepted. But the validity of a teaching is determined not by its popularity, but by its conformity to biblical witness.

For Augustine death meant the destruction of the body, which enables the immortal soul to continue to live in either the beatitude of Paradise or in the eternal torment of Hell. In The City of God he wrote that the soul "is therefore called immortal, because in a sense, it does not cease to live and to feel; while the body is called mortal because it can be forsaken of all life, and cannot by itself live at all."14

Augustine modified the Platonic conception of the soul by teaching that a human being is a rational soul that uses a mortal, material body, but the soul is not imprisoned in the body. Furthermore, he taught that the soul does not pre-exist eternally, as maintained by Plato, but comes into existence when incarnated in a body.

Augustine's modified form of Platonism dominated much of medieval Christian thought in the West until the appearance of Thomas Aquinas. During this time the teachings of Socrates and Plato became so widely accepted that they were frequently regarded as divinely inspired pre-Christian saints."
 
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reddogs

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It just went on and on..."Thomas Aquinas Defines the Traditional Catholic Immortal Soul Teaching

Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) is considered by most Roman Catholics as their greatest theologian. His definition of Catholic teachings has been largely unsurpassed. With regard to the nature of man, he developed a less radical dualism, by emphasizing the unity that exists between the body and the soul. Contrary to the Platonic-Agustinian view in which the soul dwells in the body for a time without forming one substantial being, Thomas Aquinas considers the soul as the form of the body. His thinking was influenced by Aristotles who viewed the soul primarily as a life principle. But Aquinas departed from Aristotles by claiming independent existence for the soul.
According to Aquinas, a substantial unity exists between the soul and the body, or more exactly, the spiritual principle and the material principle, which are united as "form" and "matter" in order to form one complete being. "It is clear that the soul is united to the body by nature: because by its essence it is the form of the body. Therefore it is contrary to the nature of the soul to be deprived of the body."15
Aquinas defended the immortality of the soul by arguing that it is a "substantial form" that exists independently of the body, but desires to be joined together again to its own body at the Resurrection. He strongly opposed those who held to the biblical view that the soul is the animating principle of the body, which is mortal until God confers upon it the gift of immortality at the Resurrection

Aquinas' definition of the immortal soul as the form of the body, has become the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church that is still current today. In fact, Aquinas' language is reflected in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states: "The unity of the soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the 'form' of the body. . . . The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God-it is not 'produced' by the parents-and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection."16

This definition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, rightly represents what "the Church teaches," but not what the Bible teaches. Shortly we shall see that the teaching of the immortal soul that separates from the body at death, is foreign to the teachings of the Bible. It is derived, as our survey has shown, from Greek dualistic speculations that have perverted the teachings of the Word of God.

The belief in the survival of the soul contributed to the development of the doctrine of Purgatory, a place where the souls of the dead are purified by suffering the temporal punishment of their sins before ascending to Paradise. This widely believed doctrine burdened the living with emotional and financial stress. As Ray Anderson puts it, "Not only did one have to earn enough to live, but also to pay off the 'spiritual mortgage' for the dead as well."17"

Till true believers in the church saw the errors that were being picked up and spoke up against them even if they were persecuted and called heretics or excommunicated or death......


"Reformers' Rejection of Purgatory

The Protestant Reformation started largely as a reaction against the medieval superstitious beliefs about the afterlife in Purgatory. The Reformers rejected as unbiblical and unreasonable the practice of buying and selling indulgences to reduce the stay of the souls of departed relatives in Purgatory. However, they continued to believe in the conscious existence of souls either in Paradise or Hell.

Calvin expressed this belief far more aggressively than Luther.18 In his treatise Psychopannychia,19 which he wrote against the Anabaptists who taught that souls simply sleep between death and resurrection, Calvin argues that during the intermediate state the souls of the believers enjoy the bliss of heaven; those of the unbelievers suffer the torments of hell. At the resurrection, the body is reunited with the soul, thus intensifying the pleasure of paradise or the pain of hell. Since that time, this doctrine of the intermediate state has been accepted by most Protestant churches and is reflected in various Confessions.20

For example, the Westminster Confession (1646), regarded as the definitive statement of Presbyterian beliefs in the English-speaking world, states: "The body of men after death return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep) having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received unto the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies: and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day."21 The confession continues declaring as unbiblical the belief in purgatory. "
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/et_182.pdf

It just was not Biblical but basically the Egyptian ideas picked up by the Greeks and taught by their philosophers then brought into the Christian church these ideas of these men and pagan traditions creeping into the church.
 
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reddogs

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No it’s clearly not the Bible; it’s the writings of the church fathers which are very valuable pieces of history and important writings.
Not when they go against the Bible, people began to see what the Bible said that was against these ideas of men and the traditions that had crept into the church, especially that of the immortality of the soul and cannot die.

Herman Olshausen (1796-1839) was professor of theology at Königsberg, Ostpreussen in Germany. He wrote:
"The doctrine of the immortality of the soul and the name are alike unknown in the entire Bible." [Biblical Commentary on the New Testament, Vol. 4, 1860, p. 381.]

Henry Constable (died 1894) was canon and prebendary of Cork, Ireland. He also believed:
"The immortality of the soul, and the name, are alike unknown in the entire Bible." [Hades: or the Intermediate State of Man; Restitution of All Things; The Duration and the Nature of Future Punishment.]

William E. Gladstone (1809-1898) was a British Prime Minister and Theologian. In a searching criticism of Bishop Butler's Analogy and its defense of innate immortality, Gladstone contended:
"[It is only] from the time of Origen that we are to regard the idea of natural, as opposed to that of Christian, immortality as beginning to gain a firm foothold in the Christian Church." [Studies Subsidiary to the Works of Bishop Butler, (1896 ed.), p. 184.]

"The doctrine of natural, as distinguished from Christian, immortality had not been subjected to the severer tests of wide publicity and resolute controversy, but had crept into the Church, by a back door as it were; by a silent though effective process; and was in course of obtaining a title by tacit prescription." [Ibid., p. 195.]

"Another consideration of the highest importance is that the natural immortality of the soul is a doctrine wholly unknown to the Holy Scriptures, and standing on no higher plane than that of an inegeniously sustained, but gravely and formidably contested, philosophical opinion." [Ibid., p. 197.]

"The character of the Almighty is rendered liable to charges which cannot be repelled so long as the idea remains that there may by His ordinance be such a thing as never-ending punishment, but that it will have been sufficiently vindicated at the bar of human judgment, so soon as it has been established and allowed that punishment, whatever else it may be, cannot be never-ending." [Ibid., p. 241]

Joseph Parker (1830-1902) was a Congregationalist pastor of the `City Temple' of London. He stated,
"Glorious to me is this idea of asking man whether he will accept life and be like God, or whether he will choose death and darkness for ever. God does not say to man, `I will make you immortal and indestructible whether you will or not; live for ever you shall.' No; he makes him capable of living; he constitutes him with a view to immortality; he urges, beseeches, implores him to work out this grand purpose, assuring him, with infinite pathos, that he has no pleasure in the death of the sinner, but would rather that he should LIVE. A doctrine this which in my view simplifies and glorifies human history as related in the Bible. Life and death are not set before any beast; but life and death are distinctly set before man - he can live, he was meant to live, he is besought to live; the whole scheme of Providence and redemption is arranged to help him to live - why, then, will ye die?"[Joseph Parker, The People's Bible, Vol. 1, p. 126.]

Dr. W.A. Brown (1865-1943) was of the Union Seminary in New York. he believed:
"From Israel came the doctrine of resurrection, and of the advent; from Greece, the doctrine of natural immortality." [The Christian Hope, 1912.]

Dr. J. Agar Beet (1840-1924) was a Wesleyan professor. He stated:
"The following pages are ... a protest against a doctrine which, during long centuries, has been almost universally accepted as divine truth taught in the Bible, but which seems to me altogether alien to it in both phrase and thought, and derived only from Greek Philosophy. Until recent times, this alien doctrine has been comparatively harmless. But, as I have here shown, it is now producing more serious results ..."
"It will of course be said, of this as of some other doctrines, that, if not explicitly taught in the Bible, it is implied and assumed there ... They who claim for their teaching the authority of God must prove that it comes from Him. Such proof in this case, I have never seen." [Last Things - Preface to The Immortality of the Soul: A Protest, 5th ed., 1902.]

Dr. R. F. Weymouth (1822-1902) was the headmaster of Mill Hill School and translator of New Testament in Modern Speech. He said:
"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying to destroy or destruction, are explained to mean `maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence.' To translate black as white is nothing to this." [Cited by Edward White in Life in Christ, (1878), p. 365.]

In his book in a note on 1.Corinthians 15:18 he says:
"By `perish' the Apostle here apparently means `pass out of existence'."

On Hebrews 9:28 we read:
"The use in the N.T. of such words as `death', `destruction', `fire', `perish', to describe Future Retribution, point to the likelihood of fearful anguish, followed by extinction of being, as the doom which awaits those who by persistent rejection of the Saviour prove themselves utterly, and therefore irremediably bad." {Ibid., 7800]
On Revelation 14:11:
"There is nothing in this verse that necessarily implies an eternity of suffering. In a similar way the word `punishment' or `correction' in Matthew 25:46 gives itself no indication of time."
On Revelation 20:10:
"The Lake of fire implying awful pain and complete, irremediable ruin and destruction." [The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Richard Francis Weymouth.]

Dr. Lyman Abbott (1835-1922) was a Congregationlist pastor and editor of Christian Union and The Outlook. He wrote:
"Outside of the walls of Jerusalem, in the valley of Gehenna, was kept perpetually burning a fire, on which the offal of the city was thrown to be destroyed. This is the hell fire of the New Testament. Christ warns his auditors that persistence in sin will make them offal to be cast out from the holy city, to be destroyed. The worm that dieth not was the worm devouring the carcasses, and is equally clearly a symbol not of torture but of destruction." [That Unknown Country, 1889.]

"The notion that the final punishment of sin is continuance in sin and suffering is also based in part on, what seems to me, a false philosophy of man. This philosophy is that man is by nature immortal. The conviction has grown on me, that according to the teaching of both of science and Scripture, man is by nature an animal, and like all other animals mortal; that immortality belongs only to the spiritual life; and that spiritual life is possible only in communion and contact with God; that, in short, immortality was not conferred upon the race in creation whether it would or not, but is conferred in redemption, upon all those of the race who choose life and immortality through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Dr. Edward Beecher (1803-1895) was a Congregationalist theologian and president of Illinois College. He stated:
"If [the Bible] does not recognize, nay, it expressly denies the natural and inherent immortality of the soul. It assures us that God only hath immortality. (1.Timothy 6:16). By this we understand that He has immortality in the highest sense - that is, inherent immortality. All existence besides Himself He created, and He upholds. Men are not, as Plato taught, self-existent, eternal beings, immortal in their very nature. ... There is no inherent immortality of the soul as such...[Doctrine of Scriptural Retribution, p. 58.]

Greek and paganism crept in by mans ideas and false traditions, we need to look at Christ and His Word, not mans. Christ was in the grave, that is the heart of the earth for three days, just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and nights. Jonah's description of his experience in the belly of a whale is certainly no description of paradise, nor does it seem to depict a place of eternal torment. Yet this experience was said by Christ to be a sign for those who were seeking proof of Christ's divinity, that is that He would be delivered from the power of the grave, or death.

Matthew 12:39-40 King James Version (KJV)

"39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Christ, as we know, died of a broken heart.

John 19:31-34 King James Version (KJV)

"31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."


He was certainly dead as the soldier was testing it with his spear to make double sure. Now as to man having a immortal soul, notice what Christ says in the following verses.

John 14:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

"1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also"

In verse three Christ says that He will come again and receive us unto Himself. This is a clear reference to his second coming, at which time the saints in the grave (as well as those living) will all be gathered together to be with Him forever more. Christ did not say, when you die you will be with me, he said when I come again, I will receive you unto myself.

The wicked will not live eternal in some place under the ground, they will perish, forever.
 
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reddogs

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You have said nothing to refute the three scriptures I posted and so they stand as a powerful testimony of eternal punishment.
Lets get to that as if punishment for sin is eternal torment, then Christ did not pay the penalty for our sins. How did He pay the penalty, if He didn't suffer the true consequences of sin for the sinner?

Jude 7 King James Version (KJV)

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Discussing the ultimate banishment of sin from the universe, Parker adds:
"By destroying evil I do not mean locking it up by itself in a moral prison, which shall be enlarged through the ages and generations until it shall become the abde of countless millions of rebels, but its utter, final, everlasting extinction, so that at last the universe shall be `without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing' - the pure home of a pure creation."

Commenting on the "Destruction of Sodom," Parker denies that "in giving life God has put it absolutely out of his own power to reclaim or withdraw it." He comments on the implications:
"Having once given you life you are as immortal as he himself is, and you can defy him to interfere with his own work! The doctrine seems to me to involve a palpable absurdity, and hardly to escape the charge of blasphemy. Throughout the whole Bible, God has reserved to himself the right to take back whatever he has given, because all his gifts have been offered upon conditions about which there can be no mistake."

"In this case [of Sodom] we have an instance of utter and everlasting destruction. We see here what is meant by "everlasting punishment," for we are told in the New Testament that "Sodom suffered the vengeance of eternal fire," that is of fire, which made an utter end of its existence and perfectly accomplished the purpose of God. The "fire" was "eternal," yet Sodom is not literally burning still; the smoke of its torment, being the smoke of an eternal fire, ascended up for ever and ever, yet no smoke now rises from the plain, -
"eternal fire" does not involve the element of what we call "time":
it means thorough, absolute, complete, final:
that which is done or given once for all."
 
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reddogs

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I'd say that the larger themes in scripture equate GOD'S JUDGMENT with DEATH/DESTRUCTION ... and GOD'S BLESSING with LIFE, ... both enduring FOREVER.

For God so loved the world that HE gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall NOT PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE. John 3:16

For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is EVERLASTING LIFE, ... through Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

I also that the Jews didn't believe in ECT, nor does the Old Testament suggest it. Also, Paul never spoke of it.

The only real mention of ECT in the scriptures is in Revelation ... for the Beast, the False Prophet, the Dragon, and the worshippers of the Beast.
Yes, these are teachings of a fallen church, which come from the original lie in the Garden of Eden that the devil told, that "Ye shall not surely die" We all must decide for ourselves what the truth is, or is not.

We know that Christ is not a liar. He says that He is the only way to life eternal, otherwise we perish, and that is forever as He will not bring back the wicked. It lays out the live of Satan, as those who remain unrepentant of their sin, will surely die, never to be brought back, but gone forever.
 
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reddogs

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Ridiculous!!!!!

The scriptures are clear about eternal punishment.
Do you really think a loving God would torture someone 24/7 with no respite, day and night? Even the most cruel and evil men in all the ages wouldn't do that. Even they end it and put them 'out of their misery'.
 
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A verse that I like the clearly states the finiteness of the wrath of God is
Micah 7:18
"Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy."
 
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Gary K

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reddogs,

You have made an excellent point in your posts on Greek thought within western civilization and Christianity. Our entire culture is built upon Greek thought and Greek logic. It's influence is so widespread and fundamental that is basically invisible if we don't sit down and think it out, trace it's roots. It is so pervasive, so at the root of everything we do, we don't even recognize it without giving conscious thought to the matter.

Academia today is dominated by the principles of Greek thought. Our systems of logic are all Greek in origin.
 
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tall73

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The Bible clearly teaches eternal punishment:

Matthew 25:31-46
Mark 9:43-48
Luke 16:19-31

Even if you take every point in Luke 16 literally it is dealing with the intermediary state, not final punishment.

As to Matt. 25 folks have not disputed that the punishment is eternal. They are questioning the nature of that punishment.

As to Mark 9, what about that text makes you think it is discussing eternal punishment? How do you relate the passage to Isaiah 66 which is what Jesus is quoting from?
 
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Gary K

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Bottom line: if Hell PUNISHING/TORMENT is eternal THEN Sin exists forever, and He never has the final victory over it.
Agreed. If God does not put an end to both sin and sinners He is not capable of ending sin for all time. Eternal punishing, rather than an eternal punishment, also makes God a psychopath who loves to inflict pain.
 
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Agreed. If God does not put an end to both sin and sinners He is not capable of ending sin for all time. Eternal punishing, rather than an eternal punishment, also makes God a psychopath who loves to inflict pain.

I posit that in that case psychopath/sadist cannot begin to describe it.
 
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Gary K

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I posit that in that case psychopath/sadist cannot begin to describe it.
I agree, though in terms of human undertanding and concepts psychopath is the closest approximation we have. Saying God wants to inflict eternal punishing reminds me of the guy in the news a few years ago who locked his daughter in a soundprooof room in the basement of their home for 24 years, raped her more than 3000 times, and fathered 7 kids with her. Sick beyond belief.
 
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reddogs

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Bottom line: if Hell PUNISHING/TORMENT is eternal THEN Sin exists forever, and He never has the final victory over it.
The controversy would just go on, and how would this verse be true...

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 
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