Faith plus works

Shimokita said:

Friend, as much time as I waste on this site, I actually do have a job. I don’t have an indefinite amount of time to answer questions on the internet, but I will try to answer some more of your questions as time permits.

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-Sasha- said:

Admittedly, I only read through a little bit over half of the replies in this thread, but all the responses I saw were debating Scripture or seemed to be taking an abstract view. What about your actual experience of life in Christ? Do you actually stop at having faith? Does your faith inspire you to try to do what good you can? Does your faith inspire you to seek forgiveness and reconciliation when you do what is not good? Doesn't your faith inspire actions? Doesn't it change how you think about and interact with the world? Saying abstractly that salvation comes from faith is fine...but what, in reality, does faith do to us? What effect does faith have on us?

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Shimokita said:

I did not state that all Catholics go to heaven. Search for the part of the Catechism that discusses mortal sin and the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Read that and then you should understand. I am on my cell phone right now.

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GodsGrace101 said:

You don't have to answer my questions S,,,if you knew the answer you would have written it. It actually takes, maybe, 30 seconds.

I know the answers. I just wish you would really know your denomination...the catholic church suffers from prejudice because many catholics cannot explain its
beliefs properly.

Here...I'll give you the answers:

Baptism: In Catholicism it's taught that baptism is the time when the Holy Spirit is received, among other things like becoming a member of the Christian community and the removal of Original Sin.
Why the removal of original sin?
Although O.S. was always believed to be inherited from Adam...it's the AFFECT of that sin that was inherited. We lost our preternatural gifts that God had given to Adam and Eve and we now face sickness, death and the sin nature.

Then Mr. Augustine came along in about 400 AD and created the doctrine of O.S. which stated that we are imputed with that sin and thus are born with the necessity of having it removed ASAP...which is why catholics baptize infants (even thought infants were baptised from the beginning to allow them to have the benefits of the Holy Spirit).

Now...is everyone saved in the CC because they are baptized? NO. They must, at some point in their adult lives, ACCEPT this baptism and accept the Holy Spirit to work in them, and they are, at this point, saved.

And, catholics are justified by faith...just like protestants. After justification come progressive justification which lasts a life-time and requires cooperation with God.

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GodsGrace101 said:

OOpsy.
See. You're finding out what I said earlier.
The CCC is NOT an easy catechism to understand.

If I'm looking into baptism,,,HOW would I ever know that I have to also look up mortal sin and the Sacrament of Reconciliation?? The paragraph you posted clearly says I'm baptized so I'm going to heaven.

I understand all too well my friend.

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Shimokita said:

Some of what you wrote above is correct, some of it is incorrect.

No, it takes more than 30 seconds to answer your questions. It takes about 5 minutes and a computer, because you asked me to provide the specific sections of the Catechism that provide the answer. It takes a few minutes and a computer to look up the paragraphs of the Catechism online, and then to cut and paste them here. Maybe you can do all of that in 30 seconds from your cell phone, but I cannot. If you think that means that I do not know what my Church teaches, I am perfectly fine with that. I never asked for your approval and to be frank, your opinion is not something I value.

Friend, first you ask me to answer a question, then you say that you already know the answer and want to answer it yourself. Do you suffer from schizophrenia by any chance?

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GodsGrace101 said:

Are we speaking the same language?
I told you the CCC is difficult to use.
You said you could find any answer in there and to ask you one and you'd give me the answer from the CCC.

I don't need to ask you anything...I already know what you know.

You DID NOT find the answers in the CCC because you stated incorrect information and had to send me to the mortal sin and reconciliation sections to make up the complete answer.

The point was not my asking you a question I really had...

The point was proving to you that the CCC is a totally mixed up book from which to learn.

I think you forgot why the question from me and why the answer from you.

And insults are not appreciated, BTW.

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BNR32FAN said:

How does someone grieve the Holy Spirit?

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BNR32FAN said:

Why are there so many warnings to believers in the Bible about doing good works if they cannot fail to do them if they are elected by God and they cannot do them at all if they are not elected by God?

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BNR32FAN said:

Why did Jesus and His apostles tell everyone to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not elected by God and they are incapable of failing to believe if they are elected by God? According to John 3:18 why are we all judged by whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing if we are not elected by God and we are incapable of failing to believe if we are elected by God?

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BNR32FAN said:

Does that make God responsible for whether or not someone believes. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 why does God want all of us to repent and be saved but doesn’t make it possible for everyone to do so? In John 15:1-10 why does Jesus warn His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of not abiding in Him and not bearing fruit if they are chosen by God. Is Jesus warning them of doing things they are incapable of doing?

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Ronald said:

By sinning.



Who said they don't fail? God factors in all our blunders and sins. Truth be told, we try to please God by doing good deeds but most of them are tainted or as scripture points out: We are all like dirty rags! They only good deeds are those that God is responsible for, the ones that He is behind. An example of this is evangelists going door to door, handing out tracts or the gospel --- in rich neighborhoods. Most of those works God knows are a waste of time, but the one he intended you for was Charlie, half way through your day. He was ready, God had prepared his heart, and he received the witness, the rest took no interested, maybe laughed or mocked you, through the tracts away at first chance. And I have to retract partially my statement that no good works are done by unbelievers. God can use anyone to serve His purpose and He has, not that they will be rewarded for it or saved, but let's face it, if 2/3 of the population does not make it, they served some purpose, if not only just to demonstrate evil, but to serve our needs at times.
Warnings are for unbelievers and those who have been given God's Law, the chosen nation, Israel. The Jews are warned that if the do not abide in the Lord (eventually come to Jesus), they will be cut off. We were grafted into their branches that were cut off. According to Romans 11, God will remove their blinders during the Great Tribulation/Second Coming and they will see. Many messages are given to the Jews that are exclusive, God is not done with them, they will be put through the fire and tested.



Encourage one another is repeated some forty times. And again, remember much of there witness went to the Jews who supposedly were expected the Messiah. They pleaded that they believe the Jesus was He.
Man is judged because he IS RESPONSIBLE FOR RECEIVING OR REJECTING JESUS. Doesn't the Bible say that the Father draws ALL men to Himself?
This is where I don't buy into the "Irresistible Grace" doctrine. Men resist God. He gives them ample opportunity, many chances, many calls to come. That is why God is fair. But already knows who won't come, yet because He does not desire for any to perish, he calls. Some seed falls on shallow soil, rocky soil or the birds take it away. Some are planted in fertile soil. God is fair and just.



That is the point, He is fair in drawing all to Himself. But man has an independent will that over time becomes callous. It's like a man who here's his name called and stubbornly does not answer, then when he gets older, he become deaf to the call and so is that God's fault?

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Ronald said:

By sinning.



Who said they don't fail? God factors in all our blunders and sins. Truth be told, we try to please God by doing good deeds but most of them are tainted or as scripture points out: We are all like dirty rags! They only good deeds are those that God is responsible for, the ones that He is behind. An example of this is evangelists going door to door, handing out tracts or the gospel --- in rich neighborhoods. Most of those works God knows are a waste of time, but the one he intended you for was Charlie, half way through your day. He was ready, God had prepared his heart, and he received the witness, the rest took no interested, maybe laughed or mocked you, through the tracts away at first chance. And I have to retract partially my statement that no good works are done by unbelievers. God can use anyone to serve His purpose and He has, not that they will be rewarded for it or saved, but let's face it, if 2/3 of the population does not make it, they served some purpose, if not only just to demonstrate evil, but to serve our needs at times.
Warnings are for unbelievers and those who have been given God's Law, the chosen nation, Israel. The Jews are warned that if the do not abide in the Lord (eventually come to Jesus), they will be cut off. We were grafted into their branches that were cut off. According to Romans 11, God will remove their blinders during the Great Tribulation/Second Coming and they will see. Many messages are given to the Jews that are exclusive, God is not done with them, they will be put through the fire and tested.



Encourage one another is repeated some forty times. And again, remember much of there witness went to the Jews who supposedly were expected the Messiah. They pleaded that they believe the Jesus was He.
Man is judged because he IS RESPONSIBLE FOR RECEIVING OR REJECTING JESUS. Doesn't the Bible say that the Father draws ALL men to Himself?
This is where I don't buy into the "Irresistible Grace" doctrine. Men resist God. He gives them ample opportunity, many chances, many calls to come. That is why God is fair. But already knows who won't come, yet because He does not desire for any to perish, he calls. Some seed falls on shallow soil, rocky soil or the birds take it away. Some are planted in fertile soil. God is fair and just.



That is the point, He is fair in drawing all to Himself. But man has an independent will that over time becomes callous. It's like a man who here's his name called and stubbornly does not answer, then when he gets older, he become deaf to the call and so is that God's fault?

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BNR32FAN said:

I completely agree that we are judged according to whether or not we accept Jesus my post is refuting predestination which teaches that God chose only an elect few to be saved and all others will burn in the lake of fire. I asked these questions because according to the doctrine of predestination these questions can’t be answered.

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GodsGrace101 said:

Oh. I thought they could answer anything...
And when all else fails...God's sovereignty comes in handy. (not that He isn't).

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mister rogers said:

But there's also this aspect of faith: "By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." Hebrews 11:3
No action involved.

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BNR32FAN said:

The post you are replying to is refuting predestination and eternal security. I agree that God does call everyone. Those who advocate predestination say that He only calls on the elect. John 15:1-10 is an entirely different message. Romans 11 is referring to the unbelief of the Jews because they have been blinded by God until the full number of Gentiles has repented then God will remove their blindness and they will be saved. John 15 Jesus is warning believers that they must abide in Him and bear fruit otherwise they will be cut off from the vine (Christ) thrown away to wither and thrown into the fire to be burned.

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Ronald said:

I was responding to your post. Predestination is scriptural, man's understanding of it varies. THE ELECT are chosen, predestined according to the foreknowledge of God. We don't have that, so He gives it to us in a limited capacity that we can understand. He calls ALL to be fair but knows the end from the beginning. So it may appear to some that He only calls the ELECT. And that wouldn't be fair, since the rest would not have a chance and therefore, logically could not be judged for something they are incapable of doing. So He must call everyone for His judgment against rejecting Christ to be just. In the end the unbelievers know they are responsible, they know the many opportunities, invitations, witnessing that was given them that they dismissed. They will know that God exists and will be ashamed, guilty. However, God can form the clay for a temporary purpose for the whole and discard it when it has served it's purpose too. Judas was born for one purpose- someone had to betray Jesus for money and that money cast into the potters field - it was prophesied to happen exactly that way.
Foreknowledge means He knows the future, He knows those who will abide those who will not.
Since Jesus message, (even though His ministry was to the Jews first), gives warnings to all to abide in Him, it is merely a statement of fact. At that time, no one had received the Holy Spirit yet, therefore in our perspective, salvation wasn't certain - they hadn't been sealed. But after one is sealed, we are in Christ, elect and cannot lose that/ be cut off. Still some may not know they are saved/sealed
They may abide briefly like seed planted in shallow soil, but then later fall away - which means they were never elect from the beginning.
I am not a Calvinist nor do you have to be one to believe in election.

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mister rogers said:

John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him." 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

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Ronald said:

I was responding to your post. Predestination is scriptural, man's understanding of it varies. THE ELECT are chosen, predestined according to the foreknowledge of God. We don't have that, so He gives it to us in a limited capacity that we can understand. He calls ALL to be fair but knows the end from the beginning. So it may appear to some that He only calls the ELECT. And that wouldn't be fair, since the rest would not have a chance and therefore, logically could not be judged for something they are incapable of doing. So He must call everyone for His judgment against rejecting Christ to be just. In the end the unbelievers know they are responsible, they know the many opportunities, invitations, witnessing that was given them that they dismissed. They will know that God exists and will be ashamed, guilty. However, God can form the clay for a temporary purpose for the whole and discard it when it has served it's purpose too. Judas was born for one purpose- someone had to betray Jesus for money and that money cast into the potters field - it was prophesied to happen exactly that way.
Foreknowledge means He knows the future, He knows those who will abide those who will not.
Since Jesus message, (even though His ministry was to the Jews first), gives warnings to all to abide in Him, it is merely a statement of fact. At that time, no one had received the Holy Spirit yet, therefore in our perspective, salvation wasn't certain - they hadn't been sealed. But after one is sealed, we are in Christ, elect and cannot lose that/ be cut off. Still some may not know they are saved/sealed
They may abide briefly like seed planted in shallow soil, but then later fall away - which means they were never elect from the beginning.
I am not a Calvinist nor do you have to be one to believe in election.

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