John MacArthur explains easy-believism, grace-only, etc.

friend of said:

I forgot to respond to this part.

Paul admitted that he himself was not perfect (in the flesh or otherwise) despite being endowed with the Spirit of God so much so that his writings comprised the bulk of the NT (probably the greatest glory God could ever bestow upon a mortal). According to your view of things, Paul would not be permitted entrance to the Kingdom, because he (admittedly) was not perfect in this world.

Jesus also said in Matthew 11:11 that John was the greatest man ever born, and yet all in the kingdom of heaven were greater than he. How could this be possible if not for a post death glorification which transcends our mortal existence not based upon our works and circumstances?

If Paul didn't believe in sinless perfectionism, neither should you or anyone else. If Paul didn't achieve sinlessness in this world, but knew he would be striving towards that mark until he died, who are we to ever expect to achieve it?

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As for Sinless Perfectionism:

Well, again, all I can do is refer you to the thread to learn more about it there. As I said before, this topic is not allowed to be discussed in this section of the forums. So please check out this thread and reply there:

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.

But before you reply to the thread, please read my long list of verses in that thread in the OP, and my explanation on the common objections to that topic.

As for Matthew 11:11:

The Two Leasts:

Is not God good?
Should not His people be good because He lives within them?

Why is everyone seeking justification in doing the wrong thing instead of the right thing with God? The right thing to do within that verse for God tells us that a person will be called the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven if they teach His Commands. Yet, most Christians I talk with appears to argue against this idea here. Yes, we have to love Jesus. Yes, we have to have faith in Jesus and trust Him. We should focus on loving Jesus every day in worship and in talking to Him silently and with other believers. We have to say "I love you Jesus." as we would say to everyone else we love here on this Earth. We have to praise His name in adoration behind closed doors. We have to be thankful every moment to Jesus for His sacrifice. We have to love Jesus with every fiber of our being. For we obviously cannot lose our first love like the church of Ephesus did in Revelation 2 (Revelation 2:4). But I believe the other wrong is for people to not to love Jesus by obeying His commandments. Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments; And Jesus said to the church at Ephesus to repent and do the first works. The first works involving love.

Anyways, let’s read what Jesus actually says in Matthew 5:19. Jesus says,

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven…” (Matthew 5:19).

Notice here in this verse it does not actually say that this person who breaks the least of these commands (and teaches others to do so) is IN the kingdom of heaven. It merely says that they will be CALLED the least in the kingdom of heaven.

But what about Matthew 11:11?

“Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” (Matthew 11:11).

Who is the least in Matthew 11:11?

The "Lesser" or the "Least" in Matthew 11:11 is talking about the "Greatest" in the Kingdom. How so?

Jesus says,
“And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.” (Luke 9:46).

Jesus says,
“But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.” (Matthew 23:11).

And it is written,
33 “And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,
37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.” (Mark 9:33-37).

Here we see in the Scripture verses above that the Least in the Kingdom of Heaven is the greatest within Matthew 11:11. For the Least in Matthew 11:11 is the one who accepts, loves, and ministers to all people including children and they are a servant (i.e. least) to all people in humbleness. Those who behave as though they are lesser or least in the Kingdom are ACTUALLY the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. For those who serve in God’s Kingdom in the New Covenant by loving others is better than the greatest of the prophets such as John the Baptist. For John followed the Old Covenant ways. For John was the last of the Old Testament prophets.

However, the "Least" in Matthew 5:19 are those who break God’s commands and teach others are Least in a bad way.

How so? The rest of Scripture gives us the testimony that breaking God’s Commandments is bad and not good.

John says,
“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:4)

John says,
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

Jesus says,
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness.'" (Matthew 7:21-23).

In fact, Christ says that He will send His angels and gather out of His Kingdom all who sin and practice lawlessness and cast them into the furnace of fire.

Jesus says, "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire." (Matthew 13:41-42)

Jesus tells us that by keeping His commands, it shows whether or not we truly love Him or not.

For Jesus says,
“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me." (John 14:21)

And Jesus says,
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words."(John 14:23-24).

Paul says,
“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing.” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Paul says,
“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

Conclusion: There are Two Leasts.

Matthew 5:19 and Matthew 11:11 are talking about the word “Least” from two different behavioral perspectives. One being bad because of bad behavior (Matthew 5:19) and the other being good because of good behavior (Matthew 11:11). This is not uncommon for the Word of God to speak of one thing as being mentioned as being both good and bad. There are two trees in the Garden. One good and one bad. There are two lions. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah and the roaring lion who seeks to devour you. There are two vines. The True Vine and the Vine of Sodom. There are also two “Leasts” in Scripture, as well. There are the “Least” who are the Greatest by Being the Least in Behavior and then there are the “Least” who break God’s Commands and teach others to do so.

I hope that what I had written helps.
May God bless you in all manner of the Lord’s goodness.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


Side Note:

It's also possible that the "least" of these commandments are the lesser commands (commands that if broken are considered minor infractions to Jesus) that were given on the Sermon on the Mount. But notice that Jesus does not say that they can break the greatest of the commandments. An example of a possible command that may be lesser or less serious if violated is rejoicing if someone persecutes you falsely for his sake (See: Matthew 5:11). For there is no after life dire consequences mentioned in failing to obey this command, and it does not appear to be a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor. Granted, we should obey the Lord even in the smallest of commands, but the point here is that not all sins are the same.

Thess said:

They all called themselves believers, just as did [everyone] in Galatia and Corinth, but we know that's not true. So they called themselves believers, but did the author know everyone's hearts? Impossible, the author must write with a general understanding and cannot possibly point out in every written piece where there could be wolves in sheep's clothing. We already know that they are there. There is no 100% perfect and pure group of people.

They were in one mind regarding physical things....they weren't discussing their faith under this banner of unity. Just not enough info on those two deceivers who's spirit within was not in unity with the Spirit within other True Brethren.

Maybe they were saved? Who knows....and maybe God just wanted to use them as a frightening example to the rest of us, which has prevented tens of thousands from lying....though not my former Uncle and Elder. Poor, poor man....crazy man lied about the Holy Spirit and ruined my family over it. Sigh....

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Again. No. Peter was privy to what the Holy Spirit was saying. He said that they lied to the Holy Spirit about keeping back a certain amount of money. If they were fakes, surely the Spirit would have told Peter that about them being fakes to begin with and that they needed to repent and accept Jesus. But that didn't happen; So.... your theory here does not hold water.

Jason0047 said:

Your welcome. May the Lord bless you, as well.

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Jason, you didn't comment on my powerful story that gives credence to why a person would never walk away from God.

Have you ever had an experience that came from outside of our known dimensions, consumed you like an olive in a glass of wine, frightened you beyond explanation and cause you to feel that you would never turn on the God that just proved that He can vaporize you in a nanosecond? He saved my life from the Holy Terror, thus He can take it whenever He likes, and He has no problem finding me/us where ever we are.

Have you experienced the God of Abraham as I have? The same God that can part a Red Sea? I felt that amount of Power....enough to part the Red Sea, and there is NO WAY I will ever turn my back on Him, for I have already faced the greatest fear possible, and He saved me. I have already been threatened with murder by mutilation....mutilated alive....if I were to go to the rescue of one that God wanted alive. I wept and it was difficult, but I threw my life on the line and God delivered us both. So in a sense, I received myself and this elderly man alive from the dead, just as Abraham received Isaac back from the dead.

Since that day I have seen countless miracles that cannot happen to pagans, miracles that I should have written down. It is impossible, impossible for me to turn, for if God can force me to be a sinner without choice, then He can certainly give me a Holy Helper instead of being alone in this hateful, dreadful world with literally no one. I have no one. All family and former friends are gone. I am hated by the world, so why and how could I ever turn my back on the only One whom has ever cared?! Certainly you were not there for me, nor could you be, but no one was, for I have operated on my own and in that loneliness, God made Himself to my Master as He saved my life. I gave myself to Him with a swollen face, a face that nearly erupted from broken blood vessels; a face swollen of relieving clouds of tears from my eyes.

For I am convinced that there is not one thing in every sense of all things possibly understandable, it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate me from the Love of my God, for I have prayed that He would strip me of my own self, to take away my own rights to choose, to truly, make me His complete and total slave. I want to be a true slave to Him, and why? Because hell is very real to me [edit, and so is the Trinity.

Does that sound familiar to you?

Jason0047 said:

Again. No. Peter was privy to what the Holy Spirit was saying. He said that they lied to the Holy Spirit about keeping back a certain amount of money. If they were fakes, surely the Spirit would have told Peter that about them being fakes to begin with and that they needed to repent and accept Jesus. But that didn't happen; So.... your theory here does not hold water.

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It is almost impossible that I could be wrong about everything.

Thess said:

Jason, you didn't comment on my powerful story that gives credence to why a person would never walk away from God.

Have you ever had an experience that came from outside of our known dimensions, consumed you like an olive in a glass of wine, frightened you beyond explanation and cause you to feel that you would never turn on the God that just proved that He can vaporize you in a nanosecond? He saved my life from the Holy Terror, thus He can take it whenever He likes, and He has no problem finding me/us where ever we are.

Have you experienced the God of Abraham as I have? The same God that can part a Red Sea? I felt that amount of Power....enough to part the Red Sea, and there is NO WAY I will ever turn my back on Him, for I have already faced the greatest fear possible, and He saved me. I have already been threatened with murder by mutilation....mutilated alive....if I were to go to the rescue of one that God wanted alive. I wept and it was difficult, but I threw my life on the line and God delivered us both. So in a sense, I received myself and this elderly man alive from the dead, just as Abraham received Isaac back from the dead.

Since that day I have seen countless miracles that cannot happen to pagans, miracles that I should have written down. It is impossible, impossible for me to turn, for if God can force me to be a sinner without choice, then He can certainly give me a Holy Helper instead of being alone in this hateful, dreadful world with literally no one. I have no one. All family and former friends are gone. I am hated by the world, so why and how could I ever turn my back on the only One whom has ever cared?! Certainly you were not there for me, nor could you be, but no one was, for I have operated on my own and in that loneliness, God made Himself to my Master as He saved my life. I gave myself to Him with a swollen face, a face that nearly erupted from broken blood vessels; a face swollen of relieving clouds of tears from my eyes.

For I am convinced that there is not one thing in every sense of all things possibly understandable, it is IMPOSSIBLE to separate me from the Love of my God, for I have prayed that He would strip me of my own self, to take away my own rights to choose, to truly, make me His complete and total slave. I want to be a true slave to Him, and why? Because hell is very real to me [edit, and so is the Trinity.

Does that sound familiar to you?

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I prefer to comment in regards to things involving the Bible. My experience with God is always with the Bible and involves references in Scripture. So if your experience is not specifically something in the Bible or glorifies His Word in some way, it is not something that I am interested in. Granted, I am not saying your experience is not genuine. But I prefer to stick by God's Word as the focus of the building of my faith.

Jason0047 said:

I prefer to comment in regards to things involving the Bible. My experience with God is always with the Bible and involves references in Scripture. So if your experience is not specifically something in the Bible or glorifies His Word in some way, it is not something that I am interested in. Granted, I am not saying your experience is not genuine. But I prefer to stick by God's Word as the focus of the building of my faith.

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I wished I had known this from the beginning. I wouldn't have wasted my time. wow

You gave me two really large posts here-which I appreciate- but I don't think anything will be accomplished by you and I throwing Bible verses back and forth at each other. But you made a few points I wanted to address.

Jason0047 said:

In my experience most professing Sola Scriptura churches believe in either a Belief Alone Type Gospel, or OSAS. Most do not believe you have to live holy or bring forth works of faith after being saved by God's grace. So this does not line up with the verse that you quote. Narrow is the way, and FEW be there that finds it.
Note: Yes, I believe in Sola Scriptura. My point here is that the majority of believers who profess the Bible is their sole authority believe in a form of greasy grace that Jude 1:4 warns us about.

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You may claim to believe in sola scriptura but your theology on salvation and sin is Catholic. I used to be a Catholic, so I'm familiar with it. You are saying we are saved through faith and works, not by faith alone.

In my experience most Protestant churches today either believe that you can lose your salvation through sin, or they believe that if you sin grievously/leave the faith that you never were saved in the first place. I'm sure there are churches out there that don't believe in sanctification, or who are satisfied with the dead faith James talks about. But most churches do not believe you can just do whatever and it's fine.

Just because Catholics are able to recognize the difference between grievous sin and minor infractions (or faults of character) in Scripture, does not mean that they get the entire subject matter exactly correct. Much of what they say is also based on their tradition and not solely Scripture alone. This is why their thinking on this is a bit muddied when it comes to the correct categorization of what sins can condemn and what sins do not condemn.

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Everything you list as a grievous sin would be considered so by a Catholic. The idea that one grave (mortal) sin can cost you your soul is Catholic. Your idea that the life of Christ in a believer can be killed by the believer's sin is Catholic. Straight from the catechism: "Mortal sin kills the life of Christ in us." (the children's Baltimore Catechism #2, not the CCC). And once you start getting into categories of what kills you and what just wounds you, you're going to get into tradition. Your position would be more internally consistent as a Catholic. Instead you deny that salvation is by grace through faith.

You cannot become unborn again spiritually, but you can most certainly can die spiritually (of which the Bible talks a lot about). The Parable of the Prodigal Son proves this fact. When the son came home to the father and he was willing to repent, the father said to him that he was "dead" and he is now "alive again." The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. He was dead spiritually when he was living in sin with his prodigal life, and he is now alive again spiritually in coming back home to his father and repenting (seeking forgiveness) with him (See Luke 15:11-31)

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It was not a revolving door thing where he was alive, then dead then alive again. He was dead (not born again, living in sin) and then he was alive (born again). Nothing to suggest that after he was born again, he could be dead again.

This is why we are to endure to the end, overcome, keep ourselves in the love of God. Fight the good fight of faith. If not, there is nothing to endure, overcome, or to fight for anything. All a person has to do is just kick back and eat their Cheetos on the couch and wait for Christ to return while others suffer and cry outside their door for the hope of Christ and his salvation to change their lives.

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We fight for our sanctification. You're confusing the two processes. How we are saved and how we are sanctified are not the same thing. One is consistently shown as God's work: by grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone. "Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16)". The other is a process, the result of salvation and is something we cooperate in. Ephesians 2:8-10 shows the difference between salvation (by grace through faith) and sanctification (walking in works). "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." And a justification that does not include sanctification was never a real justification in the first place. Real believers will show fruit in their lives. The repentance of faith is more then just an empty "belief" that the demons have and tremble. Saving faith includes repentance. Repentance shows itself through fruit. "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:10) "

If you are earning your salvation through the law, you are bound to keep the whole law. And it will still not justify you. "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20)

Jude 1:4 warns against those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. So Jude 1:24 would not apply to such individuals. God keeps the believer who does not justify sin, and if they seek the help of God (via prayer) and they apply the power of His Word to their lives.

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So, God helps those who help themselves?

Seals are not a bank vault or a padlock that cannot be broken. The seals mentioned in Scripture are actually said that they can be broken.

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Broken, then sealed back up again? "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:13-14)" The seal of the Holy Spirit cannot be broken.
Your belief makes everything Christ says He does for us hypothetical. It's all potential. "You're a child of God if" "You're a new creation if" If you can go from being a child of God to being a child of wrath and back again it must not be much of a change in us. And it doesn't say much about His power to keep us safe in His hand. I believe God's promises when He says He'll preserve us. "The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (2 Timothy 4:18)"

If there are no true real consequences in committing in grievous sin, then one will make light of sin and not really make it all that important to overcome because all that is required to be saved is to believe in Jesus. No need to worry in doing much of anything if such is the case.

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"They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.
You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth. (1 John 2:19-21)". If they go out from us, they show themselves in need of saving repentance. Believers have an anointing from the Holy One and know the truth. There is indeed everything to worry about when one who seems to be a believer falls into grievous sin. In all likelihood, it is a soul that needs salvation.

This is way more then I intended to write and I apologize.

worshipjunkie said:

You gave me two really large posts here-which I appreciate- but I don't think anything will be accomplished by you and I throwing Bible verses back and forth at each other. But you made a few points I wanted to address.



You may claim to believe in sola scriptura but your theology on salvation and sin is Catholic. I used to be a Catholic, so I'm familiar with it. You are saying we are saved through faith and works, not by faith alone.

In my experience most Protestant churches today either believe that you can lose your salvation through sin, or they believe that if you sin grievously/leave the faith that you never were saved in the first place. I'm sure there are churches out there that don't believe in sanctification, or who are satisfied with the dead faith James talks about. But most churches do not believe you can just do whatever and it's fine.



Everything you list as a grievous sin would be considered so by a Catholic. The idea that one grave (mortal) sin can cost you your soul is Catholic. Your idea that the life of Christ in a believer can be killed by the believer's sin is Catholic. Straight from the catechism: "Mortal sin kills the life of Christ in us." (the children's Baltimore Catechism #2, not the CCC). And once you start getting into categories of what kills you and what just wounds you, you're going to get into tradition. Your position would be more internally consistent as a Catholic. Instead you deny that salvation is by grace through faith.





It was not a revolving door thing where he was alive, then dead then alive again. He was dead (not born again, living in sin) and then he was alive (born again). Nothing to suggest that after he was born again, he could be dead again.




We fight for our sanctification. You're confusing the two processes. How we are saved and how we are sanctified are not the same thing. One is consistently shown as God's work: by grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone. "Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16)". The other is a process, the result of salvation and is something we cooperate in. Ephesians 2:8-10 shows the difference between salvation (by grace through faith) and sanctification (walking in works). "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." And a justification that does not include sanctification was never a real justification in the first place. Real believers will show fruit in their lives. The repentance of faith is more then just an empty "belief" that the demons have and tremble. Saving faith includes repentance. Repentance shows itself through fruit. "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:10) "

If you are earning your salvation through the law, you are bound to keep the whole law. And it will still not justify you. "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20)




So, God helps those who help themselves?



Broken, then sealed back up again? "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:13-14)" The seal of the Holy Spirit cannot be broken.
Your belief makes everything Christ says He does for us hypothetical. It's all potential. "You're a child of God if" "You're a new creation if" If you can go from being a child of God to being a child of wrath and back again it must not be much of a change in us. And it doesn't say much about His power to keep us safe in His hand. I believe God's promises when He says He'll preserve us. "The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (2 Timothy 4:18)"



"They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.
You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth. (1 John 2:19-21)". If they go out from us, they show themselves in need of saving repentance. Believers have an anointing from the Holy One and know the truth. There is indeed everything to worry about when one who seems to be a believer falls into grievous sin. In all likelihood, it is a soul that needs salvation.

This is way more then I intended to write and I apologize.

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My friend, just hours ago this person admitted that they don't listen. There isn't much that can be done except prayer.

Thess said:

I wished I had known this from the beginning. I wouldn't have wasted my time. wow

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Focusing on the Bible alone is never a waste of time in my opinion.
I do not consider experiences to be on par with Scripture. I am not Charismatic; I believe in what I would like to call: "Partial Cessationism" (i.e. the partial ceasing of the gifts; For the miraculous apostolistic gifts (like tongues, healing) were given only to specific early church apostles, which have now ceased, but gifts like ministry, teaching, etc. still continue). I believe the Bible and the Bible alone should be our sole authority. For that which is "perfect" has come (i.e. the Bible). Note: I do believe there is a chance I could be wrong by 1% and all the gifts are being operated by a group of believers in some remote jungle somewhere and or by a select group of believers scattered through out the world. But what I have discovered so far in Charismatic churches today does not line up with what we see done by the early church. Does that mean I have seen them all? No. So I am not claiming that all are not operating by the power of God. I can only testify to what I see and hear and know by God's Word.

worshipjunkie said:

You gave me two really large posts here-which I appreciate- but I don't think anything will be accomplished by you and I throwing Bible verses back and forth at each other. But you made a few points I wanted to address.

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I disagree. I believe there is power in the Word of God.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12).

You may claim to believe in sola scriptura but your theology on salvation and sin is Catholic. I used to be a Catholic, so I'm familiar with it. You are saying we are saved through faith and works, not by faith alone.

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Guilt by association is not effective bar for determining the truth. The Catholics believe in the Trinity, that does not mean the Trinity is not true, and neither does it mean that one is Catholic just because one believes in the Trinity, either. There are Sola Scriptura Christian churches who believe faith + works = Salvation.

1. Christ’s Sanctified Holy Church: Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord
   
2. International Fellowship of Bible Churches International Fellowship of Bible Churches

But looking to others is not how we ultimately determine the truth. For Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that find it. So it is the Word of God that is our final word of authority on matters of the faith. I have already shown you the verses that differentiates between grievous sins and minor infractions or faults of character. Your not wanting to see them in the Bible does not undo the reality of their truthfulness. You more than likely instantly associate the verses I have shown you as being Catholic and so you throw out the idea without examining what the verses are actually saying plainly. But that is your choice of course.

You said:

In my experience most Protestant churches today either believe that you can lose your salvation through sin,

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I have looked at many Sola Scriptura churches online back in the past in different places that I have lived, and they are all OSAS or Belief Alone type churches. So I do not see this as being true in any way.

This appears to fit the facts if one does a search on the internet, too.
Protestantism (920 Million) is the second largest denomination after Catholicism.

One of the five Solas of Protestantism is Sola Fide (Faith Alone). This is exclusively a Protestant doctrine that sets itself apart from "non-Sola Scriptura type churches" such as the Catholic church and Eastern Orthodox churches that believe in works of faith are an essential part of one's faith.

See Sola Fide here:
Sola fide - Wikipedia

Most Charismatic churches that believe in holiness and or good works as a part of one's faith, as well.
But the Charismatics are an entirely different branch of Christianity and they are not Sola Scriptura or purely Sola Scriptura. Many of them believe in receiving outside revelation or words of prophecy that can be added to the Bible.

Protestants (Which is defined by their acceptance of Sola Fide or Faith Alone) do not believe James 2:18. James says he will show you his faith by his works. So this is the true definition of faith. This is the kind of faith expressed in the Bible. There is no such thing as a "Belief Alone" type faith that does not produce good works and holiness. Protestants define "faith" on their own terms and say it just means a belief alone, when this is not what it means. Then again, it is easy to not do anything for God and it is easy to minimize sin or trivialize it.

You said:

or they believe that if you sin grievously/leave the faith that you never were saved in the first place.

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This would be Lordship Salvation type churches like John MacArthur's ministry.
They are not the majority.

Lordship salvation controversy - Wikipedia

They are technically going against what the term Protestant actually means. One is no longer Sola Fide if one believes works is necessary as a part of one's faith. For one of the key points of Luther breaking away from the Catholic church is that it is not based on works. So while they may claim to be Protestant, they are not truly Protestant as that word is originally meant. But even if they claim to be Protestant, the Lordship Salvation Proponents are not in the majority. John MacArthur's ministry has an average weekly attendance 8,258. It's not in the millions.

Besides, John MacArthur teaches that you cannot lose your salvation. He teaches that king David was saved even while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. So he makes for an exception that one can be saved while they commit sins on occasion, but they are never lost (as long as they come back and live holy again). But the danger in this belief is that it undermines the reality of the consequences of sin. Jesus did not say that you had to keep looking at women in lust over and over and over and over again so as to be cast into hell fire. He said that if any man looks upon a woman in lust (singular), they can be cast into hell fire bodily. Granted, Christians can confess their sins and be forgiven (1 John 1:9). But in the OSAS and Belief Alone camp, 1 John 1:9 does not make any sense because they say that all future sin is paid for (like John MacArthur teaches). John MacArthur is saying that you have to at least live holy generally in your life but occasional one time sins here and there will not keep you out of God's kingdom. But if somebody thinks that they can be saved while doing one sin or two sins, then they will think that they can do these occasional sins all the time. Therein lies the problem. It sets up a way for a person to turn God's grace into a license for immorality (See Jude 1:4). For Hebrews 3:12 says to us brethren that we can harden our hearts by the deceitfulness of sin and thus depart from the living God. I see this as: A person does not have to reject God or Christ, but I see this as their departing from God by their doctrine in justifying sin in their life with the thinking they are saved.

You said:

I'm sure there are churches out there that don't believe in sanctification, or who are satisfied with the dead faith James talks about. But most churches do not believe you can just do whatever and it's fine.

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Your not getting it. That is EXACTLY what they are ALL teaching. Even John MacArthur and his deceptive Lordship Salvation Trojan Horse belief that appears to be for holiness but in reality, it also teaches you can sin occasionally and still be saved.

True Sanctification is defined on not justifying grievous sin even a little bit. One cannot enter into the Sanctification process of God if they are attempting to make excuses for sin by saying that they can lie, lust, hate, etc. on rare occasion and still be saved while doing so.

They have a distorted view of Sanctification. They do not believe any saint will ever live holy in this life but they will be made completely holy after they die. Many of them believe that they cannot stop lusting, lying, or hating completely in this life. Yet, they are saved even if they do these sins. Granted, they will not be consistent in their belief. They will say that Christians will not murder, rape, or hurt children. But other sins they think are not as serious (like lying, lusting, and hating) they can commit and still be saved while doing so. They think that they are progressively living more and more holy, but nobody is perfect and everyone will lie to some extent, or look in lust at some point, etc. They believe this. This is the deception. They are making excuses for sin. They are not really for what the Bible says on holiness. Jesus said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says we can be condemned by our words (Matthew 12:37). John says if you hate your brother, there is no eternal life abiding in you (1 John 3:15). There are so many more red flags like this in the Bible, it would make one think they were in a Russian airport. The problem is that the OSAS or Belief Alone type belief caters to sin and one's own selfishness. It's easy to do that which is wrong, and it harder to do that which is good and right. God is always about us doing the right thing and not the wrong thing. That is why the OSAS and Belief Alone type beliefs will always fail. They are all grounded in doing the wrong thing in some way. Sure, they say they may get progressively holy, but in the mean time, they can have their cake and eat it, too.

Everything you list as a grievous sin would be considered so by a Catholic.

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It doesn't matter. Guilt by association does not mean anything. God's Word is the truth and it stands in light of men's false thinking. God is good. God is holy. So for in order for a sin and still be saved doctrine to work, God would have to agree with the idea that we can commit grievous sin on occasion and still be rewarded with good despite any really bad evil that we do on occasion. But that certainly would not be just or righteous. Does a belief alone really make a person more righteous? If an axe murderer was about to kill his next victim, do you think it would mean anything to the victim if they said they believed in Jesus? Surely not.

You said:

The idea that one grave (mortal) sin can cost you your soul is Catholic.

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No doubt this is why you cannot see the verses I showed you. You instantly throw out what those verses are saying plainly based on your past experience with them. Yet, the Word of God existed long before the Catholic church showed up.

Again, it's in the Bible. Grievous sin can cause a loss of salvation is something taught in the Bible (Whether you want to see it or not).

Again, after we are saved by God's grace:

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

You cannot explain these verses in light of your belief rationally. You must come up with a work around to explain them away. But good luck trying to do that.

You said:

Your idea that the life of Christ in a believer can be killed by the believer's sin is Catholic. Straight from the catechism: "Mortal sin kills the life of Christ in us." (the children's Baltimore Catechism #2, not the CCC). And once you start getting into categories of what kills you and what just wounds you, you're going to get into tradition. Your position would be more internally consistent as a Catholic. Instead you deny that salvation is by grace through faith.

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No. It's from the Bible. I already showed you.

It was not a revolving door thing where he was alive, then dead then alive again. He was dead (not born again, living in sin) and then he was alive (born again). Nothing to suggest that after he was born again, he could be dead again.

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Again, read the parable for yourself. It uses the word "dead" and "alive again" two times and it refers to his repentance and or seeking forgiveness. It is the third parable in a series of back to back parables with them all dealing with the theme of repentance. Another parable says that the angels rejoice in heaven over one sinner that repents. So yeah, it's talking about salvation. He was dead spiritually when he was prodigal, and he became alive again spiritually when he repented again. James 5:19-20 also teaches that a believer can fall away and become unsaved, and then come back to the saving of their soul.

We fight for our sanctification. You're confusing the two processes. How we are saved and how we are sanctified are not the same thing.

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No. You are not reading and understanding the Bible correctly. I mean stop and think for a moment. Why fight for something that is not really a requirement for salvation?
But the Bible does say that Sanctification is a part of our salvation.


God has chosen us to salvation through two things according to this verse.

#1. Belief of the Truth (i.e. Believing in Jesus).
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit (Holy Living).

worshipjunkie said:

One is consistently shown as God's work: by grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone. "Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16)".

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No. Paul was not referring to all law, but he was referring to the 613 laws of Moses (contractually speaking). Hebrews 7:12 says he Law has changed. Meaning, we are not under the Old Law. Romans 7:6 says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e. the Old Law). In the book of Romans, and Galatians: Paul was arguing against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism that undermines being initially and ultimately saved by God's grace).

A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

You said:

The other is a process, the result of salvation and is something we cooperate in. Ephesians 2:8-10 shows the difference between salvation (by grace through faith) and sanctification (walking in works).

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Paul is trying to say how we are initially or ultimately saved. Ephesians 2:1 says,

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; "

Being quickened is a one time event when one first comes to Jesus Christ.

Paul makes it clear that they are going to be different because he describes how they used to live before they were quickened.

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" (Ephesians 2:2).

You said:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

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Again, this is talking about Initial Salvation. By grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED. Past tense event. Paul is saying how they first came to the faith was not based on Works ALONE but it was by God's grace. Paul then makes it clear that we are to then continue in good works (verse 10).

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

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Right, this is not optional. It says we SHOULD walk in them. Good works. Why? Because faith without works is dead.

Paul is arguing against Works ALONE Salvationism without God's grace, and James is arguing against not having eventual works of faith as a part of one's faith or belief in Christ.

A person cannot be saved by a dead faith.
Yet, we are saved by God's grace through faith.
A true faith shows itself by works of faith (James 2:18).

You said:

And a justification that does not include sanctification was never a real justification in the first place. Real believers will show fruit in their lives.

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It appears we agree, but this undermines your theory that you can sin and still be saved on some level or the idea that we are not saved by works of faith. For you are saying the same thing as me that a true faith will manifest itself with works of faith, but then you say that these works do not play a part in our salvation. Yet, you said that a real justification includes sanctification. So you are saying the same thing as me to some extent, but you don't want to admit it. You don't want to admit the flaw or contradiction in your belief. If Sanctification is not for salvation as you said before, then it contradicts what you are saying here.

You said:

The repentance of faith is more then just an empty "belief" that the demons have and tremble. Saving faith includes repentance. Repentance shows itself through fruit. "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:10) "

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Again, this is a contradiction to what you said before. You believe that only a belief in Jesus is what saves and it is only a gift of God. Do you believe God forces you on some level to do good works? Or do you believe the regeneration forces you to do good after being saved? if so, then why do believers that you know of still sin? Also, even if you believe God forces you to do good works in some way (Which runs contrary to Scripture), this meets the requirement of Sanctification being a part of the equation in true Justification. You said true Justification will have Sanctification. So if this is so, then Sanctification plays a part in our salvation because no true Justification will be absent without Sanctification.

You said:

If you are earning your salvation through the law, you are bound to keep the whole law. And it will still not justify you. "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20)

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*Sigh* Again, Paul is talking about the Law of Moses and not the laws or commands that came from Jesus Christ and His followers. Paul said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. Tying this point in about "being proud," James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

So, God helps those who help themselves?

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Yes, unless you are a Calvinist or Universalist.

You said:

Broken, then sealed back up again? "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:13-14)" The seal of the Holy Spirit cannot be broken.

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What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

In fact, what is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.



Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.


This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.


As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.


God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.


In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).

Source used:
Sealed UNTO the day of redemption, but a seal can be broken Eph. 4:30

You said:

Your belief makes everything Christ says He does for us hypothetical. It's all potential. "You're a child of God if" "You're a new creation if" If you can go from being a child of God to being a child of wrath and back again it must not be much of a change in us.

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There are a lot of "IF" statements in the Bible that sets up a condition of things.

" If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us." (1 John 4:12).

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (1 John 4:20).

And it doesn't say much about His power to keep us safe in His hand. I believe God's promises when He says He'll preserve us. "The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (2 Timothy 4:18)"

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I believe that, too. But I do not think we have the same view on Soteriology.
Also, what is the point in living holy yourself, if the very message you preach can lead children or new converts into sin? For the moment you say that we are saved by God's grace and not of anything that we do whatsoever can lead people to turn God's grace into a license to sin (Whether we want that to happen or not).

You said:

"They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth. (1 John 2:19-21)".

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This is talking about the false gnostics who denied Jesus came into the flesh, and who denied the existence of sin. Hence, why 1 John 1:8 warns the brethren not to think like them in thinking that sin is non-existent or an illusion. Christian Scientists think that sin is an illusion. The Free Grace crowd think does not think sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for their future sins. So they make light of sin and holy living because there are no real dire consequences for disobeying God.

You said:

If they go out from us, they show themselves in need of saving repentance. Believers have an anointing from the Holy One and know the truth. There is indeed everything to worry about when one who seems to be a believer falls into grievous sin. In all likelihood, it is a soul that needs salvation.

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This belief or statement is not consistent with what you said before.

In any event, may God's goodness be upon you (even if we both strongly disagree with one another).

Thess said:

My friend, just hours ago this person admitted that they don't listen. There isn't much that can be done except prayer.

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Yeah, I just saw that post.

worshipjunkie said:

Yeah, I just saw that post.

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Not listening to outside experiences is not the same as not listening to what a person has to say with the Bible. My point of discussion here is the Bible and not outside revelations or experiences. So he is over generalizing that I do not listen at all, which is not true. If such were the case, I would not have replied to your verses and points in great detail with Scripture in return.

BCsenior said:

I'm getting tired of his repeatedly long copy and pastes
without answering relevant questions about his doctrine.
He should put his long tirades in his own threads instead
of cluttering up other peoples' threads.

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How am I cluttering up your thread? I am on your side in fighting against OSAS or Belief Alone. Is that not the point of this thread? Also, I am not sure why you have to bring in John MacArthur into the mix (seeing he does not believe you can lose salvation). You seem to think otherwise and I don't share your view. It is my viewpoint and it is not wrong to disagree with you. It is my opinion based on what he has said and others have said about him. The problem with MacArthur's teachings is that he believes you can sin on occasion and be saved, although you have to generally live a holy life. The problem with this kind of teaching is that it can make a person think they can sin a little bit, and thus once they start, they will think they can do so all the time (Because sin can harden a person's heart). Hence, why I believe his holiness teaching is a Trojan horse.

Oh, and I also do not always copy and paste from my own written work from my Google Docs. Many times I write in reply to what others say with new original content. The last two posts that were large had 80-90% of new original content.

Side Note:

Yes, I do quote from other articles, but if I do, it's not all the time, and I post the source, too.

The suicide of Kenneth Nally and John MacArthur's church in the 1980's:

Here is a quote from an article online:



Source:
Evangelical Outreach (Author: Dan Corner).

So John MacArthur never taught Conditional Salvation in any of his books; He was always clearly against it (even from the 80's). For he taught back then that a person can commit suicide and still be saved. Suicide is self murder. Yet, the Bible says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (See 1 John 3:15).

BCsenior said:

I have the book in my hot little hands,
so you're calling me a liar. OK, no problem.

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I never said that. I see that you are merely misinformed about what MacArthur is actually saying. It is also not uncommon for Eternal Security proponents to preach a double message, as well.

I mean, are you saying that what I posted about J. MacArthur is a lie? Are you saying that John MacArthur did not admit that committing suicide for a believer is not a loss of salvation? Did you read all of post #257?