What is required for a BAC to be acceptable to God?

JLB777 said:

Nothing you can say, or no other scripture that you take out of context will change the fact that we who are “in Christ”, must remain “in Christ” or be cast into the fire and burned.

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In fact, you have failed to prove your claims and have failed to show that Eph 1:13,14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 doesn't GUARANTEE the inheritance of those who HAVE BELIEVED. Note the Greek tense here: aorist.

You've been given very clearly worded verses about eternal security, but you have failed to show any verses that are clearly worded about losing salvation.

But that doesn't give you any pause??

FreeGrace2 said:

In fact, you have failed to prove your claims and have failed to show that Eph 1:13,14 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 doesn't GUARANTEE the inheritance of those who HAVE BELIEVED. Note the Greek tense here: aorist.

You've been given very clearly worded verses about eternal security, but you have failed to show any verses that are clearly worded about losing salvation.

But that doesn't give you any pause??

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I don’t have any “claims” to prove.


I just quoted Jesus Christ word for word.


You can’t explain His words away.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

“They” refers to people who were once “in Him”, then later on they became disconnected from Him, and they were thrown into the fire and burned.


“They” are not inanimate objects, but are people who were at one time “in Him”.


Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



I hope you take heed to this word.




JLB

JLB777 said:

I don’t have any “claims” to prove.

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To be clear, you don't have any claims that you can prove.

I just quoted Jesus Christ word for word.

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Sure. And completely misunderstand what He said.

You can’t explain His words away.

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I've never tried.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

“They” refers to people who were once “in Him”, then later on they became disconnected from Him, and they were thrown into the fire and burned.

“They” are not inanimate objects, but are people who were at one time “in Him”.

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You play very loose with words. Context is king but you ignore that and the fact that the parenthesis "in Him" is used in 2 ways. One way is the permanent sealing of the Holy Spirit in Eph 1:13,14 and the other way is used of fellowship in John 15, regarding bearing fruit.

But your theology has no place for the Bible's mention of fellowship.

Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

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In fact, this is how to remain in fellowship with Christ.

FreeGrace2 said:

To be clear, you don't have any claims that you can prove.


Sure. And completely misunderstand what He said.


I've never tried.


You play very loose with words. Context is king but you ignore that and the fact that the parenthesis "in Him" is used in 2 ways. One way is the permanent sealing of the Holy Spirit in Eph 1:13,14 and the other way is used of fellowship in John 15, regarding bearing fruit.

But your theology has no place for the Bible's mention of fellowship.


In fact, this is how to remain in fellowship with Christ.

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I don’t have any “claims” to prove.


I just quoted Jesus Christ word for word.


Please point out where the word “fellowship” occurs in John 15:6.


You can’t explain His words away.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

“They” refers to people who were once “in Him”, then later on they became disconnected from Him, and they were thrown into the fire and burned.


“They” are not inanimate objects, but are people who were at one time “in Him”.


Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



I hope you take heed to this word.




JLB

If anyone doesn't remain in Jesus, they're thrown out as a useless branch, for they're withered. There can be no dead wood lying about in God's Church. So the dead branches are heaped on a pile and thrown into the fire, and it burns. There's destruction for the dead branches. Everyone that doesn't remain in Christ thereby becomes a dead member. They cut off their power supply.

As for fruit, they no more can do them. Christian virtue's reality is lost. The reality of Christian virtue is lost.

So long as the branch remains rooted in the stem and its sap remains in them, their fruits must be good, though they may be stung by a worm.

To those that abide in Christ, a beneficial effect of that intimacy is prayer's hearing by Christ and God. By means of Christ's Gospel, Jesus abides in his disciples. This relationship teaches them to pray. For the words. You may pray what you will, aren't to be taken in arbitrary choice's sense. Christians' relation to Christ precludes such an understanding. Christians' prayer will be made in love, in accord with the life which rules their action. Such prayers are the expression of the intimacy between Christ and his disciples, and are heard as natural consequence's matter. For by this prayer granting, flowing from the relationship between Christ and Christians, God's glorified.

The result's a strengthening of love's bonds, an increase in good works' amount, and discipleship's confirming. Christians' obedience is an expression of their love.

The same measure of love that God has toward Jesus the latter has toward his own, and so the union is a perfect one, and should be kept. Abiding is done by keeping Jesus' commandments. This brings the enjoyment of Christ's love.

Christians will find their delight in observing the commandments, Jesus' sayings, above all that one concerning the clinging to the Gospel as salvation's Word. This abiding in Christ's the result of God's grace. God that began the good work in us by planting us into the Vine will also do it until glory's day.

JLB777 said:

I don’t have any “claims” to prove.

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You sure can't.

I just quoted Jesus Christ word for word.

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And misunderstand all of what He said.

Please point out where the word “fellowship” occurs in John 15:6.

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The word "abide" gives us the concept.

Let's examine exactly what Jesus said:
"If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Did you notice the conditional clause, that begins with "if"? So, if you take that verse the way you opine, then human beings are in charge of their own salvation. Because we have a choice when a conditional clause is stated.

iow, the believer can CHOOSE to "remain" or "abide" in Jesus, or not. The result of CHOOSING to not abide or remain means that he/she will NOT bear fruit. This is tantamount to grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Holy Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

John 15-
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

v.3 is a statement that His remaining 11 disciples are SAVED. This establishes relationship.
v.4 is a command to remain, abide, stay "in Me". This cannot be about staying saved, because we are held in God's hand (John 10:28,29.).

v.4 also states that in order to bear fruit, they must stay in Him, or stay IN FELLOWSHIP with Him. But your theology has no place for the teaching of fellowship with the Lord.
v.5 is a conditional clause about remaining in fellowship in order to bear much fruit.
v.6 is the result of not being in fellowship; being cast off, meaning no use for service, obviously.

Your view puts yourself in charge and ownership of your salvation, which isn't taught anywhere in Scripture.

We don't save ourselves.
We don't keep ourselves.
We don't own ourselves. We are God's possession. Eph 1:14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

You can’t explain His words away.

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You can't explain His words that make sense.

FreeGrace2 said:

You sure can't.


And misunderstand all of what He said.


The word "abide" gives us the concept.

Let's examine exactly what Jesus said:
"If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Did you notice the conditional clause, that begins with "if"? So, if you take that verse the way you opine, then human beings are in charge of their own salvation. Because we have a choice when a conditional clause is stated.

iow, the believer can CHOOSE to "remain" or "abide" in Jesus, or not. The result of CHOOSING to not abide or remain means that he/she will NOT bear fruit. This is tantamount to grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Holy Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

John 15-
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

v.3 is a statement that His remaining 11 disciples are SAVED. This establishes relationship.
v.4 is a command to remain, abide, stay "in Me". This cannot be about staying saved, because we are held in God's hand (John 10:28,29.).

v.4 also states that in order to bear fruit, they must stay in Him, or stay IN FELLOWSHIP with Him. But your theology has no place for the teaching of fellowship with the Lord.
v.5 is a conditional clause about remaining in fellowship in order to bear much fruit.
v.6 is the result of not being in fellowship; being cast off, meaning no use for service, obviously.

Your view puts yourself in charge and ownership of your salvation, which isn't taught anywhere in Scripture.

We don't save ourselves.
We don't keep ourselves.
We don't own ourselves. We are God's possession. Eph 1:14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


You can't explain His words that make sense.

Click to expand...

Nothing here that addresses the irrefutable words of Jesus Christ.





If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

“They” refers to people who were once “in Him”, then later on they became disconnected from Him, and they were thrown into the fire and burned.




Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24








JLB

BCsenior said:

When thou has given up here ...
there are 2 other threads worthy of your attention!

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Send me a link to them in a pm.



Thanks

JLB777 said:

Nothing here that addresses the irrefutable words of Jesus Christ.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

“They” refers to people who were once “in Him”, then later on they became disconnected from Him, and they were thrown into the fire and burned.

Click to expand...

Yes indeed. All the words of Jesus Christ are irrefutable.

This is what Jesus said about who possesses the gift of eternal life:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

So, we see that those who believe currently possess eternal life.

And, as if that weren't clear enough, the Beloved Disciple, John said this about that:
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

And, just to make the point, he said this, just 2 verses previously:
1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

These verses prove that eternal life is given to believers. Since there are no verses that tell us that eternal life is given at any specific point after believing, we KNOW that the gift is given WHEN one believes.

And then Jesus made His point about security very clearly:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This couldn't be more clear. On the basis of saving faith in Christ, the believer possesses eternal life and is promised that they shall NEVER PERISH.

Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Click to expand...

Remaining and abiding are different.

The notion that a believer can be removed (not remain "in Christ") is fallacious since Paul was very clear about those who have believed (aorist tense).

Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Notice the past tense of "when you heard/believed, you were marked". This is action that has already occurred, WHEN the person believed.

Now, notice the next verse:
v.14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words indicate why God puts His Holy Spirit INTO the believer; as a deposit that GUARANTEES the inheritance of the believer.

The blue words indicate WHEN this guarantee will be given; at the REDEMPTION of the believer, or "those who are God's possession".

If anyone were to be successful in finding any verse that actually said that salvation can be lost, that person would have proved that the Bible is in error, not worthy of study or belief.

Fortunately, no one has ever, or ever will, find such a verse. Since none exists.

When God promises an inheritance to those who have believed, He seals His promise with the indwelling Holy Spirit until the redemption is realized.

FreeGrace2 said:

Yes indeed. All the words of Jesus Christ are irrefutable.

This is what Jesus said about who possesses the gift of eternal life:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

So, we see that those who believe currently possess eternal life.

And, as if that weren't clear enough, the Beloved Disciple, John said this about that:
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

And, just to make the point, he said this, just 2 verses previously:
1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

These verses prove that eternal life is given to believers. Since there are no verses that tell us that eternal life is given at any specific point after believing, we KNOW that the gift is given WHEN one believes.

And then Jesus made His point about security very clearly:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This couldn't be more clear. On the basis of saving faith in Christ, the believer possesses eternal life and is promised that they shall NEVER PERISH.


Remaining and abiding are different.

The notion that a believer can be removed (not remain "in Christ") is fallacious since Paul was very clear about those who have believed (aorist tense).

Eph 1:13 - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Notice the past tense of "when you heard/believed, you were marked". This is action that has already occurred, WHEN the person believed.

Now, notice the next verse:
v.14 - who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words indicate why God puts His Holy Spirit INTO the believer; as a deposit that GUARANTEES the inheritance of the believer.

The blue words indicate WHEN this guarantee will be given; at the REDEMPTION of the believer, or "those who are God's possession".

If anyone were to be successful in finding any verse that actually said that salvation can be lost, that person would have proved that the Bible is in error, not worthy of study or belief.

Fortunately, no one has ever, or ever will, find such a verse. Since none exists.

When God promises an inheritance to those who have believed, He seals His promise with the indwelling Holy Spirit until the redemption is realized.

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What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


I have found my sheep which was lost!’



So much for your theory.



JLB

JLB777 said:

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

I have found my sheep which was lost!’
So much for your theory.

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Why would you say or even think that all the verses I quoted in my post just amounts to a "theory"?

Please explain how the words in red support your views of salvation being lost.

And explain how the verses I quoted don't really say what they do say so clearly.

FreeGrace2 said:

Why would you say or even think that all the verses I quoted in my post just amounts to a "theory"?

Please explain how the words in red support your views of salvation being lost.

And explain how the verses I quoted don't really say what they do say so clearly.

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Here’s what I have said, and what is the truth.

Born again Christians must remain “in Christ”, or they will be cast into the fire and burned.


Here’s how we remain “in Christ”.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

JLB777 said:

Here’s what I have said, and what is the truth.

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I know what you have said, and it is not the truth. I gave the truth in post #290.

Instead of refuting anything in that post, or explaining how any of the many verses I quoted say something other than what I claim they say, all that was done was to call it all a "theory".

Well then, let's talk about theories.

For example, the theory that salvation can be lost. Where is that found? And I mean, what verse actually says so plainly. Not with sheep metaphors, or burning branch metaphors, or any of that. How about just plain direct and simple language? Is that possible? Of course not. Because there are no verses that speak of salvation being lost.

As post #290 clearly shows, eternal security is clearly and plainly taught in Scripture.

Born again Christians must remain “in Christ”, or they will be cast into the fire and burned.

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This theory was destroyed by the words of Jesus Christ in John 10:28. Recipients of eternal life (that would be born again Christians) shall never perish. Period.

Here’s how we remain “in Christ”.

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Here's another theory. This one was destroyed by Paul in Eph 1:13,14. Every born again Christian has been sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which GUARANTEES the BAC's inheritance for the day of redemption. It couldn't be more clear.

Refusing to accept the truth is a choice. Holding on to a cherished opinion over the word of God is a choice.