Please explain if no one is predestined

Hammster · Apr 15, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

Notice ...
"as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness"

Do you see the word "as" ... it means, in like manner.

What happened in the wilderness?

21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Numbers

God used the brazen serpent as a type of Christ. The serpent was lifted up with the promise from God as provision for "whosoever"; but only those who believed looked, and therefore believed. There is absolutely nothing in the narrative of Numbers 21 that indicates that the serpent only gave provision for select people.

"even so must the Son of man be lifted up"

Jesus was lifted up in the same manner, that "whosoever" could "look and live"!

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life".

Jesus directly tied the serpent being lifted up so that "whosoever" may live, to Himself being lifted up so that "whosoever" may have eternal life. Then, in John 12:32 ...

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John

Jesus (being fully aware of what He said to Nicodemus) then tied His being lifted up, to drawing all men for the provision of salvation.

Skimming over the first few verses doesn’t help your cause.

Dr. Jack · Apr 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Skimming over the first few verses doesn’t help your cause.

I addressed the part you didn't seem to comprehend. None of the previous verses change the points I addressed. If you disagree; please make your case ...

Hammster · Apr 15, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
I addressed the part you didn't seem to comprehend. None of the previous verses change the points I addressed. If you disagree; please make your case ...

Well, you are ignoring the fact that Jesus says you won’t even see the kingdom without being regenerated. Don’t jump past that to get what you think proves a point.

Dr. Jack · Apr 16, 2019

Hammster said:
Well, you are ignoring the fact that Jesus says you won’t even see the kingdom without being regenerated. Don’t jump past that to get what you think proves a point.

You must be "drawn" to be regenerated.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 16, 2019

Hammster said:
It doesn’t say “those who He foreknew would believe”. It says “those He foreknew”.

OK. What did God foreknow, specifically?

Yes, believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. And those believers are the ones called. It doesn’t say everyone is called. Just those who are predestined.

Yes. Believers are invited. That's what "called" means.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 16, 2019

sungaunga said:
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

You keep going to a later passage, and taking it’s understanding and reading it back into the previous passage.

If you think what Jesus said in John 12:32 and what He said in John 6:44 are different, then please explain this difference.

Please stop this nonsense of quoting verse 45 without verse 44.

The nonsense is claiming that I have ignored v.44. In fact, v.45 EXPLAINS v.44.

You are completely ignoring verse 44 which comes before verse 45.

Thanks for the tip that #44 occurs before #45. Who knew?

But again, the clear and obvious point is that v.45 explains who will come to Jesus, from v.44. So I'm not ignoring anything.

It just seems what v.45 says makes some people squirm quite a bit.

No one is able to come. Unless you are drawn by the Father.

You didn't need to make 2 sentences out of what Jesus said. He gave us one sentence. Your first sentence is WRONG unless the second sentence is given immediately.

After the drawing in verse 44, then comes verse 45.

Do you not understand what an explanation means? Are you actually trying to say that God didn't teach everyone, but only the ones He draws???

The coming in verse 45, through listening and learning, results from the drawing in verse 44, which ultimately results in the raising in the last day.

Yep. Just what I thought. You've twisted the context totally out of shape.

v.45 explains v.44. The drawn ones from v.44 are the ones who listened and learned to the Father in v.45.

Now, since you disagree, prove my statement above is false.

Not just your opinion that it's false, but use English grammar, construction, etc to show it is false.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 16, 2019

Dr. Jack said: ↑
So when Jesus later said what He did in John 12, did he forget to be clear, or did He in fact mean what he said?

Hammster said:
He meant what He said. All men will be drawn. But it’s incorrect to assume that He has salvation in mind concerning all people.

So, just to be clear here, what did Paul have in mind when the Holy Spirit inspired him to write this:
1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Hammster · Apr 16, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
You must be "drawn" to be regenerated.

I agree.

Hammster · Apr 16, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
OK. What did God foreknow, specifically?

Yes. Believers are invited. That's what "called" means.

According to Romans 8:30, what happens to those who are called?

FreeGrace2 · Apr 16, 2019

Hammster said:
I’m not forgetting. At the beginning of that chapter He said nobody would see or enter the kingdom of God unless they were born again. Nothing about seeing snakes for that to happen.

Jesus certainly DID mention seeing snakes in that context. But you just have to be patient and get to v.14. In Num 21, the looking to the serpent on the pole is equated with believing in Jesus Christ for salvation in v.15,16 of John 3.

Hammster · Apr 16, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Dr. Jack said: ↑
So when Jesus later said what He did in John 12, did he forget to be clear, or did He in fact mean what he said?

So, just to be clear here, what did Paul have in mind when the Holy Spirit inspired him to write this:
1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, - Revelation 7:9

FreeGrace2 · Apr 16, 2019

Dr. Jack said: ↑
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

Hammster said:
Skimming over the first few verses doesn’t help your cause.

If you think "skimming over" v.1-4 changes anything that Dr Jack has posted, please share and don't leave us hanging.

How does v.1-4 "not help" his cause, specifically?

Hammster · Apr 16, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus certainly DID mention seeing snakes in that context. But you just have to be patient and get to v.14. In Num 21, the looking to the serpent on the pole is equated with believing in Jesus Christ for salvation in v.15,16 of John 3.

Okay. But in the context of John 3, regeneration comes first.

Hammster · Apr 16, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Dr. Jack said: ↑
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

If you think "skimming over" v.1-4 changes anything that Dr Jack has posted, please share and don't leave us hanging.

How does v.1-4 "not help" his cause, specifically?

Because before belief is even mentioned in John 3, regeneration is mentioned. You keep going on and on about no verses existing that show regeneration before faith. Here’s a whole passage, and you just dismiss it.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 16, 2019

Hammster said:
Well, you are ignoring the fact that Jesus says you won’t even see the kingdom without being regenerated. Don’t jump past that to get what you think proves a point.

To be clear, Jesus equated "seeing" with "entering". iow, no one will enter the kingdom unless born again.

It seems there is an attempt to equate seeing with believing, in trying to show that regenerataion precedes faith. But that is clearly not Jesus' point.

One "sees" the kingdom when one actually "enters" the kingdom.

I'll give an example.

If a person asked you if you had SEEN a certain beautifully furnished house, you would have had to ENTER that house in order to SEE the beautiful furniture.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 16, 2019

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
OK. What did God foreknow, specifically?

Yes. Believers are invited. That's what "called" means.

Hammster said:
According to Romans 8:30, what happens to those who are called?

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Have you been glorified YET? Notice the aorist tense there.

Hammster · Apr 16, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
To be clear, Jesus equated "seeing" with "entering". iow, no one will enter the kingdom unless born again.

It seems there is an attempt to equate seeing with believing, in trying to show that regenerataion precedes faith. But that is clearly not Jesus' point.

One "sees" the kingdom when one actually "enters" the kingdom.

I'll give an example.

If a person asked you if you had SEEN a certain beautifully furnished house, you would have had to ENTER that house in order to SEE the beautiful furniture.

So the kingdom of God is like a beautifully furnished house.

Got it.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 16, 2019

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Jesus certainly DID mention seeing snakes in that context. But you just have to be patient and get to v.14. In Num 21, the looking to the serpent on the pole is equated with believing in Jesus Christ for salvation in v.15,16 of John 3.

Hammster said:
Okay. But in the context of John 3, regeneration comes first.

No, it doesn't. Jesus equated seeing with entering. You're trying to equate seeing with believing, when Jesus made no such comparison.

And I've already shown from Eph 2:5 that regeneration and salvation are synonymous, that is, they occur together.

And v.8 gives us the order; salvation (and hence, regeneration) is THROUGH FAITH. Meaning faith occurs BEFORE salvation and hence, regeneration.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 16, 2019

Hammster said:
Because before belief is even mentioned in John 3, regeneration is mentioned. You keep going on and on about no verses existing that show regeneration before faith. Here’s a whole passage, and you just dismiss it.

I just showed that when Jesus mentioned "seeing" He wasn't speaking of regeneration, but rather being IN the kingdom.

One cannot see the kingdom unless one is IN the kingdom. That's the point.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 16, 2019

Hammster said:
So the kingdom of God is like a beautifully furnished house.

Got it.

Seriously?

Please explain if no one is predestined

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