Please explain if no one is predestined

Hammster said:

Please explain if no one is predestined

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The Bible says that believers are predestined to be in the image of the Lord.

Rom 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Only believers are predestined. Quite simple.

Phoebe Ann said:

What or who causes one sinner to have faith and another to not have faith?

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So what if it is not predestined (by any of the many possible definitions) ?

If it helps, just Let it be 'random' or simply 'by choice', throughout the world, throughout mankind, throughout history. Even 'random'.

i.e. relax. Who has faith ? The ones who have faith.

Who doesn't have faith ? The ones who don't have faith.

Is more needed to be known ?

Phoebe Ann said:

What causes an unsaved person to choose Christ? What causes another person to reject Christ? Don't they have identical hearts?

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"Identical" hearts ? No. I don't know anyone ever thought that ?

sungaunga said:

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Yes, it is simple. Those that listen and learn are a result of the giving. Not the other way around.

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Please read your verses again. The Father "draws" and those who have listened and learned will come to Jesus.

v.44 and 45 don't mention anything about "giving". That is found in John 6:37 - All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

So, before anyone can come to the Father, they must be drawn. What does that mean? Obviously, that refers to what Jesus said in John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Those who seek truth (truth seekers) will be presented with the truth of God's existence and as Creator (Rom 1:19,20). And those who listen and learn from creation will then be thankful to God, and like Cornelius (Acts 10, 11:14), will come across the gospel message.

So, those who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus.

First, who is "they"? Read the context. the preceding verse speaks of the one who is drawn by the Father and who, as a result of being drawn, comes to the Son and is raised up by Him. The being "taught by God" is not some general revelation that is devoid of connection with the preceding context.

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Seriously? Where do you get the idea that v.45 is in some "other" context from v.44?

Study Bibles, which format the text into paragraphs, place v.45 in a paragraph from v.43 through v.46.

You're insisting that the ones taught, heard and learned are the ones given to Jesus. Read the verses.

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I did. And that is exactly what Jesus said in v.45. Maybe you need the review.

No One Can Come... No one. No one does not mean someone. In other words, unless you're drawn by God, no amount of teaching and hearing and learning can have a salvific effect on you. You are given to Jesus then are enabled to hear listen and learn.

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As I showed from John 12:32, Jesus indicated that His going to the cross would DRAW ALL MEN. Not, "just the elect" or some other worded unbiblical idea.

You're going to a later passage ,misinterpreting it and taking it’s understanding and reading it back into previous passage. I think that’s called eisegesis.

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Then prove your claim. With evidence. This is just an opinion, and unsubstantiated.

You’re Reading into the text your own traditions.

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More personal opinions. btw, I don't have "traditions". I have the Bible. And I study it like the Bereans did. Acts 17:11

Only by breaking the text up into portions and ignoring its consistent themes, terms, and actions can such eisegesis be maintained.

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Sure. Please prove your opinions.

FreeGrace2 said:

So, those who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus..”

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44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

No one can come to me. The "coming" in verse 45 you keep mentioning is not possible unless what? Unless you're given to the Father first and ultimately results in being raised up on the last day. I'm sorry, your claim that ordering is unclear does not hold water. It's indefensible. At this point, you can continue to choose to believe in a God that needs your permission to be your savior.

Phoebe Ann said:

God gave some hearts that believe and some that don't?

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Ask Him.

Every Good Gift is from the Father in heaven.

FreeGrace2 said:

As I showed from John 12:32, Jesus indicated that His going to the cross would DRAW ALL MEN. Not, "just the elect" or some other worded unbiblical idea.

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You're doing it again. You see, this is a common tactic and excuse by synergists to the plain teaching of John 6:44. To jump over to John 12. Unless you're a universalist, John 6:44 makes the "all men without exception" interpretation an impossibility. Jesus also clearly excludes it in 6:37


37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Phoebe Ann said:

God gave some hearts that believe and some that don't?

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Why would that not be extremely cruel and harsh on God's part?
God gives everyone hearts that can believe yet some are to macho to accept such charity.
Some are wimps, give up to quickly and surrender to their enemy while others hang in there, are willing to accept the full punishment they deserve for their former behavior, and are just willing to pay the piper.

Hammster said:

Those God foreknew are predestined. It’s right there in the very verse you quoted.

And only those predestined are called. It’s the next verse.

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I don't know what your point is here. God foreknows everything. So that doesn't come close to supporting Calvinism.

And we know what "called" means, in the Greek. It's an invitation.

But, are you disagreeing that in Rom 8:29, those predestined are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son?

So, who are the predestined, if not believers?

Do you honestly think that God predestines unbelievers to be conformed to the image of His Son?

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
So, those who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus..”

sungaunga said:

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

No one can come to me.

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Of course not. Only those in your own periphery would be able to do that. And only living people.

Jesus was speaking about the whole of humanity. And He didn't say what you just stated.

The "coming" in verse 45 you keep mentioning is not possible unless what? Unless you're given to the Father first and ultimately results in being raised up on the last day.

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Didn't you read v.45 in its entirety? Jesus said those who have listened and learned from the Father WILL COME TO ME.

I'm sorry, your claim that ordering is unclear does not hold water. It's indefensible.

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Well, you can claim anything you want to claim. And that doesn't make it true.

What is clear is that Jesus said that everyone has been taught by God, and that those who listened and learned (paid attention to the teaching) WILL COME TO ME.

At this point, you can continue to choose to believe in a God that needs your permission to be your savior.

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What a twist of what I believe.

This isn't about God getting permission to do anything. Jesus ALREADY died for everyone. Did Jesus ask permission to die for the sins of everyone? That would be absurd.

It's God's plan that those who believe in His Son will have eternal life (John 6;40), because Jesus said whoever believes HAS (that means CURRENT POSSESSION) eternal life (John 5;24, 6:47), and that He is the One who gives eternal life (John 10:28a), and those He gives eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28b).

Don't take my word for this. The Bible says so. As I've shown.

sungaunga said:

You're doing it again. You see, this is a common tactic and excuse by synergists to the plain teaching of John 6:44.

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Let me help straighten out your mistaken views. I'm not a synergist. I have as much against Ariminians as I do Calvinists.

To jump over to John 12.

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No jump or leap at all. Jesus said His going to the cross would draw all men. Jesus spoke of the Father drawing men to Him. What's the beef?

Unless you're a universalist, John 6:44 makes the "all men without exception" interpretation an impossibility. Jesus also clearly excludes it in 6:37

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I'm not a universalist either. The context of John 6:43-46 clearly states that those who have listened and learned WILL COME TO JESUS. Why do you keep dodging that very clear statement?

37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

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v.37 is a statement about believers, as evidenced by what Jesus said in v.45. It's also a statement of eternal security.
v.44 is a statement about the fact that unless He would go to the cross, no one could be drawn to Him. And another statement about eternal security.
v.45 is a statement about the fact that God has taught everyone, which is shown in Romans 1:19-20. But only those who have listened and learned from Him (paid attention) will come to Jesus.

What it seems you want to avoid is the fact that while God has taught everyone, only those who responded by paying attention will come to Jesus.

That isn't synergism.

FreeGrace2 said:

Didn't you read v.45 in its entirety? Jesus said those who have listened and learned from the Father WILL COME TO ME.

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44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

You keep going to a later passage, and taking it’s understanding and reading it back into the previous passage. Please stop this nonsense of quoting verse 45 without verse 44. You are completely ignoring verse 44 which comes before verse 45. No one is able to come. Unless you are drawn by the Father. After the drawing in verse 44, then comes verse 45. The coming in verse 45, through listening and learning, results from the drawing in verse 44, which ultimately results in the raising in the last day.

sungaunga said:

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

You keep going to a later passage, and taking it’s understanding and reading it back into the previous passage. Please stop this nonsense of quoting verse 45 without verse 44. You are completely ignoring verse 44 which comes before verse 45. No one is able to come. Unless you are drawn by the Father. After the drawing in verse 44, then comes verse 45. The coming in verse 45, through listening and learning, results from the drawing in verse 44, which ultimately results in the raising in the last day.

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So when Jesus later said what He did in John 12, did he forget to be clear, or did He in fact mean what he said?

Hammster said:

He meant what He said. All men will be drawn. But it’s incorrect to assume that He has salvation in mind concerning all people.

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You seem to be forgetting his conversation with Nicodemus in John 3. He used Numbers 21 to compare the serpent being lifted up (provisional salvation for all), but only effectual for those who believed; with Himself doing the exact same thing. He would draw all men, but only those who believe are saved. His being lifted up is universal provision, but only those who believe are effected by the provision.

Hammster said:

I’m not forgetting. At the beginning of that chapter He said nobody would see or enter the kingdom of God unless they were born again. Nothing about seeing snakes for that to happen.

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3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John

Notice ...
"as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness"

Do you see the word "as" ... it means, in like manner.

What happened in the wilderness?

21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Numbers

God used the brazen serpent as a type of Christ. The serpent was lifted up with the promise from God as provision for "whosoever"; but only those who believed looked, and therefore believed. There is absolutely nothing in the narrative of Numbers 21 that indicates that the serpent only gave provision for select people.

"even so must the Son of man be lifted up"

Jesus was lifted up in the same manner, that "whosoever" could "look and live"!

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life".

Jesus directly tied the serpent being lifted up so that "whosoever" may live, to Himself being lifted up so that "whosoever" may have eternal life. Then, in John 12:32 ...

12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John

Jesus (being fully aware of what He said to Nicodemus) then tied His being lifted up, to drawing all men for the provision of salvation.