John MacArthur explains easy-believism, grace-only, etc.

friend of · Apr 15, 2019

BCsenior said:
Aaaaah yes, you are finding fault with God's Scriptures!
Yeah, I get it ... There are many like you around.

Just out of curiosity, which scriptures specifically do you presume Aviela is finding fault with, that prompted this response?

fhansen · Apr 15, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
That's overturning justification by faith apart from works of the Law, at least in our minds. It's like saying, "Here's your gift of socks for Christmas- but if don't put them on, I'll throw you in hell, because you obviously didn't accept the gift".

Ok, and how then does God's graciousness and mercy play out for those who don't even receive the gift to begin with? "I'll throw you in hell because I made you to live there?"

FireDragon76 said:
"In that case, the gift is a gift in name only and is really more an obligation. We insist the gift is real and isn't some con job on God's part. God desires our love freely, that cannot be coerced from somebody with threats."

From Eden to now, man has a moral obligation-that's where his freedom lies. An obligation to do the right thing, which he's free not to do, an obligation to love God. If you summed up the whole Christian message from beginning to end it could be, "Thou Shalt Love- Myself and neighbor".

FireDragon76 said:
It's like Gerhard Forde pointed out, when two people love each other, one does not say "Love me!". They say "I love you".

God says "Love Me", the first and Greatest Commandment, because he knows that that is the very best thing we can do-for ourselves. It's the essence of our justice and wholeness and happiness and it takes time and His patience to steer us obstinate people into that freely chosen state of being-as we're willing to accept the gift. The possibility of rejecting it is what makes possible the freedom to accept it, the freedom to love God.

mathinspiration · Apr 15, 2019

It is only proof whether you truly love God by living his law because Christ came to fulfill the law.

SaintCody777 · Apr 15, 2019

BCsenior said:
Grace-only, cheap-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc. are called antinomianianism.
This is the notion that a one-time justification saves … apart from sanctification.

Actually, that's a common strawman for the so-called "free-grace" position. Most "free grace" teachers say and teach that though professing Christians who still willfully dwell in their sin will still be accepted into Heaven and God's Kingdom, they will not do so without any consequences in this life, nor in the Kingdom of Heaven. This carnal believer will be punished by God in this life, lose rewards and privileges in heaven, and be barred from the Supper of the Lamb.
On the contrary to what many Lordshipers think, "free grace" proponents and adherents have plenty of reasons to live holy lives that are God pleasing. To name a few these reasons are to gain crowns, rewards and privileges in heaven, as well as to give thanks and glory to what God has done, and to contribute to others for the good of society. It's just that making sure you have fruit of genuine salvation is not one of them. While in reality, the Bible does say this in places like 2 Corinthians 13:5-6 to examine our faith to see if we have really been born again. Throughout 1 John, the death kneel of the so called "free grace" doctrine, there are clear tests to prove whether someone who professes to be a child of God really has Christ living in them. Mark 8:34-8 is also one of the many death kneels for this doctrine in the Bible. Discipleship is synonymous with being a child of God and being saved.

BCsenior · Apr 15, 2019

SaintCody777 said:
Discipleship is synonymous with being a child of God and being saved.

Thanks for the nice presentation of both sides.

Yes, a disciple is a true son of God ...
having true saving belief and true saving faith!

But, what exactly is involved in being a disciple?

Matthew 28:19-20, NLT
"Therefore, go and make disciples of all
the nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you."

Yes, disciples must OBEY Jesus' commandments!

Bible Highlighter · Apr 15, 2019

friend of said:
@Jason0047

I'm going to emphasis some key words here in a scripture you posted.

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That HE might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That HE might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Notice the emphasis on Jesus and not us?

No. Christ works through us if we cooperate with His commands.

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.” (John 15:5).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

The “washing of the water of the Word” is our obedience through Christ to God’s Word (Scripture).

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
(2 Timothy 3:16-17).

For Ephesians focuses on our obedience to God and staying away from sin (which is God’s Word).

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” (Ephesians 5:1-5).

Bible Highlighter · Apr 15, 2019

BCsenior said:
You need to understand that I am ONLY interested in
the contents of this book, which was written in 1988
and updated in 1994.

You didn’t clarify that in your beginning OP or original post.

You said:
HELLO!

I am not a mind reader. You did not say this in the beginning OP.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 15, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
If it is, you sure aren't preaching it that way. Nobody ever threatened me with the gift I got for Christmas.

Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

FireDragon76 · Apr 15, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

That's not actually how Muslims think of salvation, in reality. It's true they lack the kind of assurance that my religion teaches is a result of confidence in the promises of God, but so does yours, apparently.

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Nobody ever said we shouldn't be responsible with the gift we have received. That just doesn't equal a specific kind of legal obligation on our part.

BCsenior · Apr 15, 2019

Jason0047 said:
You didn’t clarify that in your beginning OP or original post.

Yes, I'm sorry now that I did not.
IMO, people should realize that 1994 was a long time ago, and people change over time! Maybe even you.
25 years!
I quoted his book because I (and many others)
say it's just about the best Christian book ever!
Have you read the reviews on Amazon?

friend of · Apr 15, 2019

"Hope. That which we make our hope we worship as God; for hope is an act of worship. Those that make their own righteousness the foundation of their hope, they exalt it into the place of Christ, and honour it as God; and to honour anything as God is evident idolatry."

Bible Highlighter · Apr 15, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
That's not actually how Muslims think of salvation, in reality.

You are mistaken. While they do believe you must believe in their version of god and his message, it is not focused on God’s grace as initial and ultimate salvation. Allah nor Mohammad died for their sins. Good works is the predominant driving force and factor of their salvation. It is primarily a works based religion that offers very little to no grace because there is no real assurance of salvation (unlike what is taught in the Bible).

You said:
It's true they lack the kind of assurance that my religion teaches is a result of confidence in the promises of God, but so does yours, apparently.

There is no “my religion.”
There is only one true religion and that is the religion taught in the Bible.
You apparently did not read what I wrote before because I talked about how a believer can confess their sins to Jesus and be forgiven (saved) (1 John 1:9). A person can have an assurance that they know the Lord if they find that they are keeping his commandments (1 John 2:3). Knowing or abiding in the Son = Life (See 1 John 5:12). A person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep his commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (See 1 John 2:4).

You said:
Nobody ever said we shouldn't be responsible with the gift we have received. That just doesn't equal a specific kind of legal obligation on our part.

To not say that we don’t have a moral or legal obligation to God as a part of being in His Kingdom is being irresponsible with his gift. Ephesians 5:25-27 says that the reason Christ died for us is so as to make us holy by God’s Word (Scripture).

Your denial of God’s laws as a part of life is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

1 John 3:23 is a command or law that tells us to believe in Jesus.

Luke 10:25-28 tells us that to love God and to love our neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life.

Matthew 19:17-19 says that the Moral Law is a part of life.

1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Do not murder is a command that has carried over into the New Covenant. Rick (a self proclaimed Christian) obviously cannot murder by mowing a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and also claim he has salvation while doing so.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 15, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
That's not actually how Muslims think of salvation, in reality. It's true they lack the kind of assurance that my religion teaches is a result of confidence in the promises of God, but so does yours, apparently.

Nobody ever said we shouldn't be responsible with the gift we have received. That just doesn't equal a specific kind of legal obligation on our part.

Do you believe Eternal Security proponents like George Sodini were saved?

Check out this article here:

George Sodini - Eternal Security proponent & mass murderer and suicide victim.

FireDragon76 · Apr 15, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Do you believe Eternal Security proponents like George Sodini were saved?

Check out this article here:

George Sodini - Eternal Security proponent & mass murderer and suicide victim.

I looked up George Sodini and I can't confirm that religion was a motive for the killing. I am not going to base a conclusion off what may well be heresay or propaganda.

According to Christianity Today, he was a sporadic churchgoer. Perhaps he was mentally disturbed. Other than that, I won't comment.

We do not teach that grace is a license to hurt people. Grace is a license to serve our neighbor, even if we don't dictate to people exactly how they must do that.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 15, 2019

BCsenior said:
Yes, I'm sorry now that I did not.
IMO, people should realize that 1994 was a long time ago, and people change over time! Maybe even you.
25 years!
I quoted his book because I (and many others)
say it's just about the best Christian book ever!
Have you read the reviews on Amazon?

But John MacArthur said in a Cessationism video that anyone who denies Once Saved Always (like we do) is committing blasphemy or something to that effect. In fact, no Calvinist believes in Conditional Salvation. Their talk of holiness is a smoke screen or double message because they say you cannot lose salvation. This means that sin cannot separate person from God in his view, but that a believer will show in time to live holy. But what about in the meantime? In other words John is against a person having to maintain their salvation. He said so himself.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 15, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I looked up George Sodini and I can't confirm that religion was a motive for the killing. I am not going to base a conclusion off what may well be heresay or propaganda.

According to Christianity Today, he was a sporadic churchgoer. Perhaps he was mentally disturbed. Other than that, I won't comment.

We do not teach that grace is a license to hurt people. Grace is a license to serve our neighbor, even if we don't dictate to people exactly how they must do that.

Read the article on him.
He speaks like many Christians today do.
He talks about if salvation depended on works than he would not be saved; But he believed he would be saved on the basis of his belief in Jesus alone. In fact, I had Christians admit to me in person and online that they could mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and they would still be saved while doing so. In other words, if works truly did not play a part in salvation, then a believer could do such evil acts of sin and still be saved. You even admit that grace is not a license to hurt your neighbor. This is because grace is tied to God’s laws. Do Not Murder is a law or command.

Besides, we know that the general message of OSAS or a Non OSAS Belief Alone type belief in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not being set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Ex Belief Alone Proponent Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers
(Note: The WMA, and MP3 files in this source link may not work; But the Real Video Audio files do work last I checked; So please select the Real Video Audio files).

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness NO Eternal Security Christian Testimony

More Suicide Victims and OSAS:
SUICIDE Commit Suicide Symptoms Suicidal Victims

Thess · Apr 15, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Lutherans don't emphasize individual spiritual experiences in that way. We do have spiritual experiences of course (we are human beings after all), particularly associated with our concept of calling or vocation, but we emphasize the collective experience of the Church as a whole rooted in our encounter with God's Word.

I guess I don't understand. Have I done something wrong by expressing my individual Spiritual experience?

Thess · Apr 15, 2019

BCsenior said:
Where I'm at right now re: election ...

God chooses and calls some for obedience to Christ,
according to Paul. But then, the believer can choose
to fall away, fall from grace, draw back to perdition!
So IMO, God and man both have a crack at choosing
exactly who gets to be with a Holy God in heaven
for all of eternity.

Perhaps someone could tell me what the theological
term is for this "doctrine"?

I always thought Hebrews 6 put this ideology to bed....which is that it is impossible to bring someone back into repentance, thus forcing Jesus to be crucified all over again. Peter is certainly a challenge, for Galatians 2 clearly states that Peter led Barnabas and many others astray with his corrupted behavior. Peter is such a thorn to the Christian faith....

friend of · Apr 15, 2019

Thess said:
Peter is such a thorn to the Christian faith....

I used to be hard on Peter but then I realized that there's a very good reason for Peter's existence and interaction with Christ.

Thess · Apr 15, 2019

Jason0047 said:
However, John MacArthur has a whole score of problems.

#1. He denies the blood atonement (You cannot deny the blood of Jesus as a part of salvation because it is taught in many places in Scripture as an essential part of our salvation).

#2. He is a Calvinist. This means he believes in Unconditional Election (that is not biblical). This is an attack upon the very good character of GOD. It is not man who is responsible for his own choice in regards to GOD, but it is God who chooses ultimately who is saved and not saved. Yet, if this is the case, then why have a Judgment? It makes no sense. It would be like creating a robot where it's only choice in it's program is to kill and then putting that robot on trial for murder. I believe the Bible teaches Prevenient Grace (Arminianism) and not Unconditional Election (Calvinism). To learn more about Prevenient Grace, click on the following spoiler button:

Prevenient Grace:

Prevenient Grace is the belief that God draws men at certain times to see and understand the gospel so as to choose it or reject it of their own free will. Without this illumination or drawing by God, a person cannot understand the gospel. For in the Parable in the Sower, we learn that the first seed did not even understand the gospel message. The devil stole the seed out of their heart before they could understand it. So there are times where a person can hear the gospel and not understand it because they have not been drawn by God yet. But God will draw all men unto Him in His timing, though.

Prevenient Grace Verses:

John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

John 12:32 says,
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

John 16:8-11 says,
8 “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.”

Romans 2:4 says,
“Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?”

Titus 2:11 says,
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

1 Timothy 2:3-4 says,
3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

John 3:16 says,
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

2 Peter 3:9 which states that God “is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance.”

1 John 2:2 says,
“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (Also see John 1:29 - the Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world).

Hebrews 2:9 essentially says,
"Jesus tasted death for everyone."

Matthew 13:15 says,
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.”

Matthew 23:37 (NLT) says,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 says,
“I call heaven and earth as witness this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live”.

Acts of the Apostles 17:27 says, “he be not far from every one of us”

Acts of the Apostles 16:14 says,
“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.” (Note: This was an opening of the heart to listen and it was not a change of heart to be instantly saved and regenerated).

Good Article on this topic:
What Biblical Evidence Is There For Prevenient Grace?

#3. He says any believer who is against Once Saved Always Saved is committing blasphemy against God or something to that effect. This is a very serious charge. So while he appears to be for holy living according to Lordship Salvation, he believes this is forced in some way by God. He also appears to contradict himself by writing an article that a person cannot lose salvation but then he says nothing about holiness or Lordship salvation in that article. This can lead a person to think the wrong way and treat sin as if it was a license. Also, Lordship Salvation and Once Saved Always Saved are not compatible unless you believe you are puppet being moved about by God against your own will.

#4. He is a millionaire (i.e. he is rich). Yet, 1 Timothy 6 says this about the rich and it is not good:

9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses." (1 Timothy 6:9-12).

Verse 9 said that they that be rich fall into many foolish and hurtful lusts and they drown men in destruction and perdition.
Verse 10 is saying that the love of money is the root of all evil. You can tell what a person loves by their accumulation of that thing. If a person has Elvis everywhere in their home, they love Elvis.
Verse 11 is telling the man to flee these things and to follow instead after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, etc.

Jesus says where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. We are told by Jesus to lay up our treasure in heaven and not here upon this earth.

That's some mighty fine work, partner. I'd have to say that concerning my own experience, having felt the Terror of the Lord, and having also felt His even more Powerful Love and Peace, I can say that I was so utterly terrified and close to physical death, that the only way I could ever, EVER possibly choose to walk away and begin to obey the Devil were if God Himself were to harden my heart....and I don't see any reason for Him to do that, considering that I have made myself a True Slave to Him.

The Terror of the Lord has done to me what it did to Saul, not that I am an apostle or anything close to it. I am obedient and will become so more and more however I am able. The indwelling Spirit does [make] us confident, but we have [remarkable, unearthly] reasons to be confident. For I know that even if and when I am horrifically murdered, God has mastery over my death, just as Abraham believed that God had mastery over Isaac's death. God would bring Isaac back to life and God will most certainly raise me from the dead, for I believe in Jesus as God in the Flesh....something the Jahovah's Witness could not say at my door today.

John MacArthur explains easy-believism, grace-only, etc.

A private in Gods army

Oldbie

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The young, curious Berean

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Still an evangelist

A private in Gods army

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Well-Known Member

A private in Gods army

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