Faith plus works

GodsGrace101 said:

Great post.



2. Romans 1:5 speaks of the Obedience of Faith.
Paul is stating that he is going to tell people all over the world of the kindness of God through Jesus, on us, undeserving sinners, so that THEY TOO will
BELIEVE and OBEY. (God).

Obedience to God is spoken of throughout the entire N.T.

Apparently obedience must be central to salvation.

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Amen.

JLB777 said:

Since you used to term “showed his faith”, then I would say no, Abraham did not “show his faith” when he left his home.

I’m being “technical” because this subject has so much controversy because of confusion over a specific word used in the Bible, which is the word “works”, and how the word justification is defined.

Let me explain.

Justification has been defined in two ways:

Primary: Declared to be righteous
Secondary: Shown to be righteous.


In the case of Abraham leaving his household to “go out” to the land of Canaan, it would be when he was justified or,
“declared to be righteous”, as in when we are first “saved”.

This particular incident foreshadowed the gospel and painted a picture for us of the intended salvation by faith to come, which resulted in justification; Being declared righteous by God.

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8

JLB

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Do we need to define what a work is?
A work is just anything of a good nature that we do after salvation.

Before salvation, no amount of works can save us because God said that it's our faith that saves us.
Ephesians 2:8

After we have been saved AND ARE JUSTIFIED,
then works come into play.

NOW our works are worth something whereas before they were not.

When God told Abraham to leave Ur and Abraham OBEYED God,,,wasn't this a good work that Abraham accomplished?

HOW are you comparing "works" to justification?
I'm sorry,,,I don't understand.

GodsGrace101 said:

Do we need to define what a work is?
A work is just anything of a good nature that we do after salvation.

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Yes we do.


We have:

The works of the law
Good works
Work that earns a wage
The work of obedience
Dead works


The big confusion comes in when people just lump works into one category defined as the works of the law.


Rightly dividing the word of truth comes from distinguishing between these different meanings of the word “works”, and discerning the context being used.


Then their is understanding initial salvation, (born again), and receiving the salvation of our soul at the end of our faith, on the Day of Judgement.


After we are born again, we have the ability to be led by the Spirit to practice righteousness, which involves obeying the inspiration or leading of the Holy Spirit to work righteousness; righteous manifestations of love.




JLB

JLB777 said:

Yes we do.


We have:

The works of the law
Good works
Work that earns a wage
The work of obedience
Dead works


The big confusion comes in when people just lump works into one category defined as the works of the law.


Rightly dividing the word of truth comes from distinguishing between these different meanings of the word “works”, and discerning the context being used.


Then their is understanding initial salvation, (born again), and receiving the salvation of our soul at the end of our faith, on the Day of Judgement.


After we are born again, we have the ability to be led by the Spirit to practice righteousness, which involves obeying the inspiration or leading of the Holy Spirit to work righteousness; righteous manifestations of love.




JLB

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OK.
I see what you mean.
I mean either
Good Works
or
Works of Obedience

So how do we distinguish?

I mean, does anyone here follow the works of the law...613 of them??

When I'm speaking to another Christian I mean
good works/deeds that God would want us to do,
or a behavior that He would want us to practice...

HTacianas said:

All of the original apostolic Churches teach that we must cooperate with the grace of God in order to attain salvation. From The Confession of Dositheus, Synod of Jerusalem, 1672:

"And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call preventing [or, prevenient] grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace. This grace co-operates with us, and enables us, and makes us to persevere in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His preventing grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated."

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The Westminster confession states,
I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies;[1] not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,[2] they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.[3]

II. Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification:[4] yet is it not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love.[5]

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]

GodsGrace101 said:

I see.

Well, you're right. No one will be able to find anything like that unless they quote a gnostic from the early church and which the early church proclaimed a heresy.

All the ECFs knew that they were saved by faith in Jesus; but they also understood that they had to MAINTAIN that salvation - and the way to maintain it was exactly how the N.T. writers said it would be:
through good works.

Some like to say that works are the RESULT of salvation...great: as long as we do them, because if we don't, we will not continue to be saved.

Simple...but not accepted.

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Maintaining your salvation is working and earning your salvation by works of men. False gospel that stems from unbelief in the true gospel

MDC said:

Maintaining your salvation is working and earning your salvation by works of men. False gospel that stems from unbelief in the true gospel

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What do YOU teach?
How is it a false gospel if it's what has been taught from the beginning?

Will be posting some links as soon as I get back here....

HTacianas said:

All of the original apostolic Churches teach that we must cooperate with the grace of God in order to attain salvation. From The Confession of Dositheus, Synod of Jerusalem, 1672:

"And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call preventing [or, prevenient] grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace. This grace co-operates with us, and enables us, and makes us to persevere in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His preventing grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated."

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I agree that we absolutely must cooperate with grace for salvation but it is the faith that makes us right with God thru obedience. Notice decree 13 in The Confession of Dositheus

Decree 13
We believe a man to be not simply justified through faith alone, but through faith which works through love, that is to say, through faith and works. But [the idea] that faith can fulfill the function of a hand that lays hold on the righteousness which is in Christ, and can then apply it unto us for salvation, we know to be far from all Orthodoxy. For faith so understood would be possible in all, and so none could miss salvation, which is obviously false. But on the contrary, we rather believe that it is not the correlative of faith, but the faith which is in us, justifies through works, with Christ. But we regard works not as witnesses certifying our calling, but as being fruits in themselves, through which faith becomes efficacious, and as in themselves meriting, through the Divine promises {cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10} that each of the Faithful may receive what is done through his own body, whether it be good or bad.

It is the faith within us that justifies us thru works and works are not certifying our calling but are fruits of our calling thru which our faith becomes effective.

GodsGrace101 said:

OK.
I see what you mean.
I mean either
Good Works
or
Works of Obedience

So how do we distinguish?

I mean, does anyone here follow the works of the law...613 of them??

When I'm speaking to another Christian I mean
good works/deeds that God would want us to do,
or a behavior that He would want us to practice...

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Hear the parable of the cookies and the crackhouse -


The Pastor of your Church announces a fund raiser to be held next Saturday, in which people will bake goods and bring in things to sell in a yard sale, to raise money for the new children’s wing.


So, that night you pray and ask the Lord what He would have you to do to raise money.


The Lord speaks to you to go and pass out Gospel tracts on Saturday in front of the local crackhouse.


Friday comes around and you decide to bake 12 dozen cookies to take to the bake sale.


On Saturday, everyone is impressed by your great effort to bake so many cookies and thanks you for your great contribution.


Were you operating in faith or rebellion?


God’s plan was to have the local drug dealer who comes by to supply the crackhouse you were supposed to be passing out tracts at, get a tract and read it and give his life to Jesus, and bring in
$50,000.00 to donate to the Church, as well as begin to reach out to those he sold drugs to to bring them to Christ.






JLB

GodsGrace101 said:

OK. That sounds like obedience to me.
The problem is that some say that we just need to "accept" Jesus and we'll be saved forever no matter what we do. I don't believe this is what you mean from prior posts of yours....

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Lol no accepting Christ is the very first step. I think many people took the first step and heard they don’t need to take anymore steps and when they actually are presented with the scriptures that shows they must refrain from sin, bear fruit, and walk in the Spirit becoming a new creation they don’t like that gospel because it’s too much of a hassle and requires them to change their way of life. They prefer the diluted gospel where you pick certain sentences out of the scriptures ignoring the context of the message in order to build a belief that better suits their preferred way of life. It’s just much easier that way. Unfortunately it makes for a ridiculously wide gate to heaven that couldn’t be any wider unless absolutely nothing was required for salvation. I don’t believe this is the case for all who believe in faith alone and eternal security. I believe some are just misled and some don’t fully understand. I think the English translations are not as accurate as they could be to the Greek language which also confuses people by not understanding the author’s understanding of the words faith, believe, and believer. I think there are many that even tho they believe in faith alone and eternal security will still be saved because they still do good works. Not to receive salvation but because they love God and they love others. They still know what the Holy Spirit is telling them. I mostly worry about those who use these teachings as an excuse to live their life the however they want. Quoting a few verses out of context to God on judgement day or saying but my pastor said isn’t going to save them.

JLB777 said:

Nothing here that says we are saved by “faith alone”.


Faith alone, all by itself is dead, and can not save.


Paul mentions the law of faith, in verse 27.


Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27


Faith must have the corresponding “work” or action of obedience, or it remains dormant or dead and incomplete, unable to function to produce the intended divine result.



Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22


Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

• The “work” mentioned here refers to obedience.

Not the works f the law, which Paul was contrasting in Romans.
Not the work that earns a wage.
Not good works.

• But the work of obedience.

The way we receive faith is by hearing God; Faith comes to us when God speaks to us, and in Abraham’s case God said to Abraham to offer his son Isaac as a burnt offering.


Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
Genesis 22:1-2

As soon as God spoke to Abraham to offer his son, Abraham had faith.

However, it wasn’t until Abraham actually raised the knife to kill his son, in obedience, that his faith was made activated, or made alive, and complete to produce the intended divine result of justification.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


Can I show you other examples in the Bible of this principle of law of faith?




JLB

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Clearly you didn't understand anything I said. Faith is all that is necessary to be saved, but it must be a faith that acts. Good day, I'm done wasting good words.

Jonaitis said:

Clearly you didn't understand anything I said. Faith is all that is necessary to be saved, but it must be a faith that acts. Good day, I'm done wasting good words.

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Obedience is required for salvation.


The obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26




JLB

JLB777 said:

Obedience is required for salvation.


The obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26




JLB

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Very Interesting...

But "what is" the "obedience of faith", as say, opposed to maybe, other types of obedience maybe...?

Could you explain or elaborate a bit...?

And either way, is it, or they, required of us to give or do or perform, in order to get, ect or not...? Or is truly a purely free gift...?

And nothing is required of us, so we cannot take credit, either we are chosen by Him (from before the foundations of the world) or we are not, and as far as we can tell God's making, or God's choosing (to make) (us) this way, are not dependent upon us or anything we can generate, or duplicate, or create, or make or cause ourselves to be, or whatever, whatsoever...

We try to figure out what has made Him choose, or what has made Him make certain ones a certain way, or this way, (from before they were made, ect) and then chose to favor some in front of others, and why, ect, curse some and bless others, ect...

We try to figure that one out all the time, but fall short much of the time....

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

What if our lifestyle that we feel we have to lead, is, or comes in conflict with, the mainstream, or mainstream views and/or common opinions of "man" basically, or if they are not in conflict, do we need to be justified before men...? And, does Sin have it curses or consequences still for the believer, on top of it being about our being justified before men...? or not...?

God Bless!

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We are , regarding our Christian Discipleship, supposed to lead by example. In other words, if we are a mature believer, we have to be sensitive to those around us, both lost & born again, and do nothing that we are "free within ourselves to do"....that would cause someone else (non-born again) to doubt our Christianity, or cause a new believer or one who is immature (Spiritually) to follow us into some behavior that we are at liberty to do, and yet this crush their conscience..... This is called "stumbling" a believer.
The bottom line is, we are Children of the Light, and Jesus is the Light of the world, so, our public lifestyle, even on a forum like this, needs to find us at our best, as we are literally publicly representing our Faith and our God, who is our Lord and Savior.

In life, every situation that we face, that has the world's eyes upon us, demands (James) that we face it in a way that represents who we represent, if we are born again.

And also, to answer your question regarding the consequences of sinning, after we are saved.....
Well, a legalist, worries about this for the wrong reason, because they don't understand Romans 4:8, is in effect.
Simply, before we were born again, the LAW had the power to judge us and deem us to be "sinners", and in fact, it defined all sin as sin. But , now we are not under the law, so we are no longer judged by the law as sinners, and this is because Jesus has been judged in our place, and received the punishment for OUR transgressions, upon himself. And following this, and when we become born again, then or status for eternity, is "Righteous".......That is you born again status, currently, (readers) if you are born again, and it has to be this way, or you are not really saved.

The Cross, is an interesting situation. As because of the Cross, Jesus is sacrificed for our sin, and God then takes the very Righteousness of Christ, as WE BECOME THIS.. as "born again".
And this never changes. As Jesus's on the cross, never stops being the sacrifice, and His righteousness never stops making us just as righteous as HE IS..... because we are now "in Christ".
And THAT, is Salvation.......THAT is GRACE......And this never changes..
We have a new ID.....a new Identity....and this is "the righteousness of God, has become US".

So, all of us do things that we define as sin, (works of the flesh) after we are saved, but God never again, after he has given us HIS Righteousness, defines us as a sinner, .....only as a Saint......only as a "Son of God", and a "Heir of God, and a Joint Heir of Jesus".

So, your question is........ what happens if you, as a Christian, start living as a "sinner", and you keep on and on.. ???????????
Well, the law is abolished, being nailed on/to the cross, so, it can't judge you as a sinner.
You are no longer "under the law, but under GRACE".
And God can't punish you for your rotten backsliding lifestyle in Eternity, as He has Judged CHRIST already for you, on Earth.
So what then?.....do you just enjoy your sin?
No. What happens is, God will correct you. Hebrews 12:6....but this is not judging you for sin, this is correcting you, to bring you back to a lifestyle that represents your position "In Christ".
He does this to all of us if we are born again.

BUT, what if you keep on going, keep on backsliding and won't stop, even tho God deals with you?
Then you get Romans 8:13 as a final answer.

And there is one more thing. Even tho we are living "under Grace", there is something that didnt change in the Spiritual Realm, when Jesus died on the cross and abolished the law that was formally judging us as sinners.
What is not changed is the spiritual law of "sowing and reaping".
This is still in effect, and this will often take care of your sinning and cause you to stop, and wish to Holy God you'd never started.
Its because once you start suffering the consequences for doing what you know not to do, you are going to be harmed, literally, in life, by the fact that what you do, is going to come back to you, and hurt.
This is the spiritual law of "sowing and reaping", playing out in all lives, including the life of a born again believer in Yeshua.

JLB777 said:

Obedience is required for salvation.


The obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

JLB

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Actually, you are gently misusing the verse, tho in principal, you are in the right direction.
See, the context of the verse you quoted is not "the obedience of faith", and that is why the verse does not explain the point of the faith.
The context of the verse, is...."Now is made manifest". and this would be Jesus, The Gospel, and the preaching of it.

So, think of it like this, ... Faith does not save you....but rather, God saves you thru your Faith.
God requires that you believe in the gospel, as faith comes by hearing IT, and the Gospel is a message that you believe, and THAT, is when Faith becomes what God accepts to justify you, and to save you.

Try it like this.
Say you car is nearly empty.....needs gas. Its on "E".
So, you go to the station...
Now, click into analogy mode and think of salvation like this....(readers).
The Gas in the pump, is God's grace, is the Blood Atonement.
The empty tank is YOU LOST and on your way to hell< just before you believed.
Now what is the HOSE?
The Hose is the transmission device that gets the gas from the pump, into your tank.
And so, the analogy is......The Gas, is God's righteousness and forgiveness, and the empty tank is your lost condition, needing Christ, and the HOSE< is your FAITH.
Its through that hose, through your faith, that God takes that Gas, takes the blood of Jesus, and fills up your tank, .... saves you......thru that hose........Faith.
No Hose - No Faith....nothing happens. EMPTY..... because there is nothing that can connect the tank to the gas, or the Sinner to God's salvation.

Gracia Singh said:

The simplest answer I can give, would be John 10:16.

There is One Fold, not many equally valid folds, but still, Christ knows His sheep, and can and will gather them all in.

There are many Christians in exactly that situation; they are isolated, have access to comparatively little, and do the best they can with faith, prayer, obedience, and a New Testament, if that. Christ can and will gather them, too.

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John 10:16 is a great scripture as are ALL scripture inspired of God. It is imperative to consider the context in all scripture in order to know the intended message. Jesus, in John 10:16, is speaking to the Jews; God's chosen people. The "other fold" Jesus makes reference to is the Gentiles. The idea that He is referring to people outside of the body of Christ is contradictive with other scripture: those baptized are added to the body/church, those baptized into Christ have put on Christ, Christ is the Savior of the body. No where in scripture does God even hint of the possibility of anyone outside of the body being saved. God and His written word alone determines what the body is. If the church fell away, as His word states it would, what is the end of the fallen church if it never fully repents? The warnings to the churches in Revelation are relevant considerations. Those that obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, accept no false doctrine and remain faithful till the end are His sheep.
In Him

Shimokita said:

LOL, this is a whole lot of mental gymnastics friend. Well it is good to know that it only takes a seven page essay to change “A and not only B” to “B only and not A”.

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But is it mental gymnastics that you comprehended, ?

Let me tell you something.
Ive talked to thousands. Im on many forums like this one for years and years.
And what you find is the same confusion on all of them, regarding only a few topics that believers and those who pretend to be, fight about.
And the letter that James offered, is permanently confused then twisted by Legalists, to support their self righteousness, every hour of every day they are breathing...on this forum, and on every Christian forum, worldwide.

So, let me do a little bit more mental pole vaulting for you, so that you understand something about your NT, that your preacher and your mother never told you. OK?
This will help you, if you have ears to hear.
But if you are not wanting to know more, then you'll accomplish this, im sure.

One of the things you have to come to understand about your NT, first and foremost, is that its a book that is teaching and revealing "progressive revelation" as it goes along. And this is what explains...WHY... that some of the apostles wrote things that seem to contradict what Paul teaches as "sound doctrine". And the reason why most Christians dont understand or even often recognize what is going on, is because they dont understand this. = NOT all of the Apostles were taken by Jesus, personally, and taught 99% of the doctrines of the Body of Christ.
This only happened to one Apostle.......= Paul.
See, most believers have never even been told this ........and i bet you haven't.
What i just told you is that all the apostles, other then Paul, were NOT personally taken aside and given the doctrines of the Church.
This only happened to Paul, as Jesus didnt tell them what He gave to Paul, to give to You and Me.
He also told Paul to tell them., and here is the point.
That took time...(no internet, or cell phones) and Until He did, they didnt know some things.
LIKE.... on one occasion, Jesus/God taught Peter in Acts 10, that Gentiles could be saved.
He didnt know it.......So, down came the vision....>"rise Peter, kill and eat"..
This is Act 10, Shimokita. This is at least 10 yrs after Jesus ascended back to heaven, and Peter still does not KNOW, that Gentiles and not just Jews, can be SAVED.
So, what makes you think that James knew it, at that time?.....or any of them?
Ah, you have never even thought about this, because no one but the mental gymnastics coach ever too the time (love) to try to teach YOU, so that you could come to understand SUCH an important KEY to rightly divided the word.
And why does this type of Mental Gymnastics clarification matter, Shimokita? Its because, lets say...that if you never read anything in a NT except what Peter wrote, up until Acts 9, then you would only know what Peter knew, and he was in the dark regarding Justification by Faith, and all that Paul gave the Church as church "sound" doctrine that Jesus gave to Paul, personally.
So, if you only read what James wrote.....you will run around ranting and raving about 'faith without works", and so forth, instead of getting your Salvation Doctrine from the Apostle to whom it was personally given by Yeshua.... = the truth about "Justification by Faith".
Shimokita, has your pastor, or church leadership ever told you to study only Paul's letters to understand Salvation and Church Doctrine?
If not, why not?
Also, did your church leadership, in a moment of "mental gymnastics", tell you that in 2nd Peter, .. Peter says that Paul's letters are SCRIPTURE and equal to the TORAH? (Old Testament)?
They didnt tell you?
Well, thats something to know, isn't it.

HTacianas said:

My tradition teaches me that the plain wording of it is sufficient. And I am certain that if James had meant something other than what he wrote he would have written something else altogether.

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James never says we are justified by our works ALONE. He says we are just by our works and NOT faith alone. We have to overlap that Truth with what Paul says... that no man is justified by works (Galatians 2:16). The only way these 2 truths of James AND Paul can both be True at the same time is if there is a true Faith that always produces works. But those works by themselves do not produce justification and faith/salvation. Justification is by the Faith that has works. This is what James means by "justified by works". He is saying we cannot ignore our works and claim to have Faith without any works. James knew faith in Christ alone is what saves us. He is just saying that such a Faith will always be accompanied by works. Any other interpretation makes either James or Paul a liar.