The Rapture Is God's 10% Cut

ewq1938

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The Matthew passages are at the end of the Great Tribulation.

Actually they are after the trib has ended. It is the same exact timeframe that Paul wrote of.

And the Thessalonian passages describe the rapture pre-tribulation.

Paul placed the rapture after the second coming which happens after the GT has ended.


The tribes of the earth don't mourn during the rapture because they don't know it's happening until they see people are missing.

They mourn because Christ has returned and they know they choose wrongly and will be punished.

No need to get into a debate about this ... it's been gone over many, many times and we still hold to our beliefs. Right? We can just agree to disagree and let the topic continue on. OK?

Sure.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

A feature of prophecies is time's absence. Events that may be centuries apart are connected as though they would take place in one continuous action. God isn't subject to time. Whatever happens, takes place before God in one timeless moment.

Jesus connects the prophecies concerning Jerusalem and concerning the final judgment in such a way that they overlap. The world's judgment has begun with Jerusalem's fall.

When this world's last day dawns, signs will appear. Nature's laws will be overthrown. No ordinary eclipses, shooting stars, meteors here, that are acting in accordance with nature. Here's chaos.

God will then recall the laws, and deal with the universe according to God's plan. And then, Man's Son himself, will appear in the sky, clothed with his power. The Nazarene, Man's Son in is humiliation, will show that his claims were well founded.

Then the people groups will wail, as the Judge comes in the clouds with power.

There'll be a trumpet sound, and the angels will be sent out as his messengers to collect those that are his own. From the earth's four winds, from every people group and tongue, they'll come together at the great call.

No "rapture" involved. Christ's return and a gathering of believers on Earth.
 
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ewq1938

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There'll be a trumpet sound, and the angels will be sent out as his messengers to collect those that are his own. From the earth's four winds, from every people group and tongue, they'll come together at the great call.

No "rapture" involved. Christ's return and a gathering of believers on Earth.

It is a rapture, same timeframe and same events.
 
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ewq1938

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Thank you for trying, but there is no rapture mentioned in the gospel verse that you posted. No prize for you.

A gathering of people is what the rapture is about so, yes, it's mentioned by Christ and is repeated later by Paul.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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A gathering of people is what the rapture is about so, yes, it's mentioned by Christ and is repeated later by Paul.

Not every gathering of people is a rapture, so [X].
 
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ewq1938

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Not every gathering of people is a rapture, so [X].


No, but one at the second coming and with a trumpet is a rapture/gathering of saints.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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No, but one at the second coming and with a trumpet is a rapture/gathering of saints.

Agreed that it is a gathering of saints. That said, you have yet to prove that the extraordinary event you made claim to, "the rapture" will occur. Considering this conversation closed until such time you provide actual proof.
 
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ewq1938

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Agreed that it is a gathering of saints. That said, you have yet to prove that the extraordinary event you made claim to, "the rapture" will occur.

"caught up" is the Greek word harpazo, which is the Greek word for Rapture so it is proven simply by Paul writing about it.
 
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keras

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I'm fond of saying that proper interpretation should take into account context and when, where and to whom the passage is being spoken about. Applying those hermeneutic principles to these verses reveals that they are not non-rapture verses at all.
Your refutations of my post #12, that lists 5 quotes of Jesus, where He plainly states that going to heaven for humans was impossible, are rejected on the grounds that Jesus never specified the groups and times you attribute them to.
You are, in fact, setting yourself up as the arbiter of which teaching of Jesus applies to us and those that we can [should, in your opinion] ignore.

Perhaps we could agree with your assertions, but only if there was a clear scripture saying that the Lord will take His people to heaven.
With the complete lack of any such prophecy, we must take verses like John 3:13 at face value.
Not only that truth, but 'rapture; believers fail to take account of the many prophesies that do tell us our destiny and tasks for these end times.
There is no 'escape' from the earth, what would all those martyrs until now think? They had to endure until their end; wanting to avoid trials and testing is a cowards attitude. Hebrews 12:7-8
 
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_Dave_

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Your refutations of my post #12, that lists 5 quotes of Jesus, where He plainly states that going to heaven for humans was impossible, are rejected on the grounds that Jesus never specified the groups and times you attribute them to.
You are, in fact, setting yourself up as the arbiter of which teaching of Jesus applies to us and those that we can [should, in your opinion] ignore.

Perhaps we could agree with your assertions, but only if there was a clear scripture saying that the Lord will take His people to heaven.
With the complete lack of any such prophecy, we must take verses like John 3:13 at face value.
Not only that truth, but 'rapture; believers fail to take account of the many prophesies that do tell us our destiny and tasks for these end times.
There is no 'escape' from the earth, what would all those martyrs until now think? They had to endure until their end; wanting to avoid trials and testing is a cowards attitude. Hebrews 12:7-8

I was answering your claim that those verses disprove the rapture because you think they show that nobody goes to heaven.

So, sticking to that assertion by you let's unpack one verse at a time so that we don't get drawn down rabbit holes.

I'll pick John 8:21-23 to begin with, as that passage is fairly simple and straight forward. "Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come."

OK. So, applying good hermeneutics how would you answer these questions?

To whom was Jesus speaking?

What is it about them that prompted Jesus to say, "ye cannot come?"

A little farther down Jesus repeats himself; which is a clue to its importance to the context. What does John 8:24 mean, "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins?"

Who is the ye that Jesus speaks of?

Why did Jesus say in John 8:44, "Ye are of your father the devil, ...?"

To whom was he speaking?

Are born-again Christians' fathers the devil?

How does John 8:44 relate to the first in this series, and does it explain why Jesus was speaking specifically to a select group of individuals who would not be able to follow him, and not to mankind in general.

If you had to summarize the purpose of this passage in context in a few words what would you say?

Please keep in mind my purpose is not to prove the rapture with this. I am merely refuting your contention that this verse disproves the rapture.

Thank you for your time in answering these questions. I'm sure your answers will make it clear if this passage was meant by Jesus to deny that his church will be raptured.
 
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keras

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I'll pick John 8:21-23 to begin with, as that passage is fairly simple and straight forward. "Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come."

OK. So, applying good hermeneutics how would you answer these questions?
Is your view 'good hermeneutics' or made to suit a pre conceived belief?
I do in fact, see that as applying to all of humanity, BECAUSE there is no scripture that says humans can go to heaven.
You might like to refute me with Revelation 11:12, where the 2 Witnesses go to heaven. But they died first and also that happens just before Jesus Returns and He will include their souls with the martyrs, to be brought back to life then. Rev 20:4
Enoch, Elijah and perhaps Moses are special cases, even with them; going to actually live in heaven is disputable from the little we are told.
Please keep in mind my purpose is not to prove the rapture with this. I am merely refuting your contention that this verse disproves the rapture.
You simply have no case for a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.
The Bible is clear, we are made to inhabit the earth, it is our home. God made angels to serve Him in heaven. Angels can come here, we can't go there. Only at the end of it all, does God come to dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7
 
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_Dave_

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Is your view 'good hermeneutics' or made to suit a pre conceived belief?
But Keras, don't you see that's exactly what you are doing?

You refuse to acknowledge a correct interpretation of John 7:34 because it doesn't suit your preconceived ideas. Jesus is making a clear statement, unambiguous, not made obscure by parables or idioms.

Simple question: Who specifically is Jesus addressing in John 7:34 that He says they cannot go where He goes?

You offered a specific set of verses as proof against the rapture, so those are the ones I want to discuss.

I already told you that I'm not using that verse as proof of the rapture, but I need you to admit that it can't be used to disprove it. Once we've cleared that hurdle we can move on to expand the debate.
 
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keras

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I already told you that I'm not using that verse as proof of the rapture, but I need you to admit that it can't be used to disprove it. Once we've cleared that hurdle we can move on to expand the debate.
I cannot agree that John 3:13 allows people other than Nicodemus [and the Jewish rulers of his time] to go to heaven.
The failure of there being any proof text where it is said people can live in heaven, simply destroys your case. Further debate is pointless.

I know from all the prophesies what God does plan for His people in the end times.
It surely is not for us to sit in heaven, so that makes the 'rapture' theory wrong and will never happen.
 
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ewq1938

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I already told you that I'm not using that verse as proof of the rapture, but I need you to admit that it can't be used to disprove it.

I agree with you that verse isn't related to the rapture and therefore cannot be used to disprove any version of the rapture.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Harvest at the full end of the age 70ad:

Matthew 13:
30 ‘Let both grow together until the Harvest, and at the time of Harvest I will say to the Reapers, 'First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into My barn.”
39 And the enemy who sowed them is the Devil, and the Harvest is a full end<4930> of the Age, and the reapers are Messengers. [Revelation 14:15]

Matthew 24:3 Yet Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us, when? shall these be, and what? the sign<4592>of Thy parousia and full-end<4931> of the age.

The Harvest is the full end of the OC Mosaic Jewish Age......beginning of the NC Christian Age. Amen!

2 different Messengers have a sharp sickle......on gather the Elect Saints in Christ, the other throws the OC unbelievers in the Winepress of the fury of God.

Revelation 14:
14 And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting, having a golden Crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying in a great voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Thy sickle! and reap<2325>!
that came the hour to reap, that is dried/ripe the Harvest of the land.
16 So He sitting upon the cloud casts His sickle on the land, and the land is reaped.

17 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary of the one in the heaven, and He also had a sharp sickle.
18 Then another Messenger, the One who has authority over the fire, came out of the Altar and He sounds to a great voice to Him having the sharp sickle, saying,
“Put in thy sharp sickle! and pick! the clusters from the Grapevine of the land, that are mellow it's grapes.”
 
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samwise gamgee

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I agree with you except for 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
which speaks of the resurrection of the dead when they receive their glorified bodies.

I don't hear any talk here about a rapture.

Jesus is coming back one time for His church...at the end of the world.
Did you overlook these words in verse 51, "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"? Paul's use of the word "we" shows he considered it possible that he would be among those who never died. He was speaking about the rapture, not the final resurrection.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Did you overlook these words in verse 51, "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"? Paul's use of the word "we" shows he considered it possible that he would be among those who never died. He was speaking about the rapture, not the final resurrection.
He thought Jesus was coming back before his death.
The Thessalonians stopped going to work because they thought Jesus' return was imminent.

But in the above, Paul is saying that some Christians (we) will STILL BE ALIVE when Jesus returns. Of course, Paul thought it would be soon.
One time.
At the end of all ages.
To set up the literal Kingdom...some call it the New Jerusalem.
The literal Kingdom of God.
 
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ewq1938

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Did you overlook these words in verse 51, "Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"? Paul's use of the word "we" shows he considered it possible that he would be among those who never died.

He didn't know when it would happen so he speaks "we" as a default.

He was speaking about the rapture, not the final resurrection.

Yes but the final resurrection is the group of the dead not worthy to resurrect with the dead in Christ who rise at the second coming. Paul spoke of the first group to resurrect from the dead which happens before the living are raptured.
 
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