You must PROVE you LOVE the LORD to be saved!

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FreeGrace2

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Anyone looking to the Son is obeying Him. It is not thinking OF him. It is not convincing yourself of promises to you he never made. Anyone looking to the Son is following Him, loving him with all their being, and obeying Him.
What is quite clear from Scripture is that NO ONE is able to keep God's law. That's the reason Jesus Christ came to earth and die for our sins. We CAN'T earn salvation. God gives it by grace through faith. You are the one who wants to muck it up with puny human works and effort in an attempt to try to earn what can't be earned.

Your views lack the main ingredient in God's plan of salvation. Grace.

You guys define the words to mean something that costs you nothing and ignore the verses that use verbs that cost a believer.
What Jesus Christ did on the cross for mankind literally cost Him everything. His Father forsook Him while He bore your and my sins.

But, regarding what it costs us, you've got it all wrong.

This is what Jesus said:
Matt 11-
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

So, you're not even close.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Jesus clearly gave the conditions for salvation....and they were never merely give mental ascent (agree on a point) or say the magic words. There will be a lot of surprises on judgement day.
Yes, Jesus was very clear:

John 3:15,16
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

The issue is whether loving God is a condition for salvation. You have yet to show that from Scripture. I, otoh, have shown many verses that give only believing in Jesus Christ as Savior for salvation.

No one is claiming that we don't need to love God. Of course we do. But salvation is not predicated on that, as you insist. You have NOT shown your claim from Scripture.

It's easy to show from Scripture that we all need to love God. That isn't the issue.

Where is the verse that says that loving God is a condition for being saved?

The rich young man told Jesus that he had kept all the commandments from his youth. Then Jesus proved him wrong by showing that he loved his money and possessions MORE than he loved God. Jesus proved that he had broken the first commandment.

Jesus can do that with every human being. So don't be so smug about who you claim to love.

Do you think this crowd loved Jesus?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Matt 7

These people addressed Jesus as "Lord", showing respect. They also described all that they had done FOR Him, by doing them "in His name".

Would anyone do all that if they didn't love Him?

However, His final comment seals the deal. His comment "I never knew you" is a direct reference for NEVER having any relationship with them. Which comes through faith in Him.

These were never believers. And they were rejected from entrance into heaven. In spite of all they did for Him.

So, good luck with your 'love'.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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All of which avoids addressing what Jesus Himself said about Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness. Perhaps you can address that now?
Untrue, he addressed it perfectly. But what do it edit out the bits that call for anything that costs you anything. Believe doesn’t mean “agree.”
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Aldebaran said:
But He wouldn't be telling the truth if He said, "I never knew you" if they were His sons and daughters.
So you think God doesn’t know some people?? That is, anyone not his he doesn’t even know??? No names known as he is IGNORANT of those not his? You think Jesus saying he doesn’t know them means he never heard of them???
In fact, when Jesus told the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 that He "never knew" them, He was speaking of relationship.
Which must be maintained and is NEVER a once time event that never can be lost.
His statement is a clear indication that He meant that they never believed in Him.
Nope. Relationship is always TWO parties, not one “believing something.” You change the text to suit your hope.
Just look at the basis for their appeal to enter the kingdom: works. Nothing about faith.
They believed or they’d never have done miracles in his name. There was confidence in their theology in them.
And, this point is affirmed in 2 verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

These 2 verses state in the clearest of words that it is those who never believed who will be condemned.
“Believe “ is not merely agree you’re going to heaven no matter how you behave. I suspect you substitute “all will be condemned who have believed they are saved no matter how aweful they are to others or whether they love God and his or not.”
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Sorry, salvation is not about squirming down rabbit
holes with you ... looking for some little reason to
reject many dozens of obvious verses in the NT.
E.G. da one below >>>>
The root problem is the OsAS believers tend to only want to go to Heaven. So only scriptures promising them Heaven are of interest to them especially those requiring only thinking, looking, believing, breathing or anything that is cheap and easy. Scriptures requiring loving God, obeying, forgiving, taking up a cross are only optional extras for them. And there seems to be a blindness preventing understanding anything else.
 
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BCsenior

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You guys define the words to mean something that costs you nothing and ignore the verses that use verbs that cost a believer.
I've been warning them that they have NO idea
what "believe" and "faith" mean in the NT.

It's not an intellectual thing.
It's not even a shallow thing.
It's a real deep thing about really "following".
It's all about obedience!
 
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FreeGrace2

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Aldebaran said:
But He wouldn't be telling the truth if He said, "I never knew you" if they were His sons and daughters.
So you think God doesn’t know some people??
Is this serious? Of course Christ is omniscient. His statement was about an intimate knowledge, of which the crowd never had. Which is why Jesus said, "I NEVER knew you".

Which must be maintained and is NEVER a once time event that never can be lost.
Opinion noted.

Nope. Relationship is always TWO parties, not one “believing something.”
I never said otherwise. Of course relationship refers to 2 people.

In the human realm, we have:
1. marriage relationship between husband and wife.
2. relationship between parent and child.

To remind you, in God's view, marriage is permanent, as Jesus taught in Mark 10-
6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.’So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

Further, the Bible uses the human relationships of marriage and parents to illustrate and describe the spiritual relationship between believer and Christ.

And, the point, is that these relationships are PERMANENT. Can you become an unchild of your parents, or can they become your unparents? Of course, that would be absurd.

You change the text to suit your hope.
I'd love to see how I was able to 'change the text'. Could you show how I did?

They believed or they’d never have done miracles in his name.
Aren't you aware that demons can perform miracles, or have you never read the story of Moses and Pharaoh, and his sorcerers?

There was confidence in their theology in them.
Uh, no, there was confidence in WHAT THEY DID FOR HIM. Their theology was one of WORKS, just like your theology. Earn your way to heaven.

“Believe “ is not merely agree you’re going to heaven no matter how you behave.
I know that really bothers you, but you have no idea what grace is or means. We are saved by GRACE, not of works. But you've ignored or rejected Eph 2:8,9 in order to believe what you believe.

I suspect you substitute “all will be condemned who have believed they are saved no matter how aweful they are to others or whether they love God and his or not.”
Your suspicions are wrong.

The verses are clear; all will be condemned WHO HAVE NOT BELIEVED. Why would you so falsely accuse me of trying to change what the Word of God says so plainly?
 
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FreeGrace2

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The root problem is the OsAS believers tend to only want to go to Heaven.
Why do you so flagrantly mischaracterize those who understand eternal security? How deep does your hatred of them go?

So only scriptures promising them Heaven are of interest to them especially those requiring only thinking, looking, believing, breathing or anything that is cheap and easy.
The good news here (hopefully) is that you at least recognize that there ARE verses that DO promise Heaven.

But the bad news is that you haven't yet provided ANY verses that support your opinions and claims.

Scriptures requiring loving God, obeying, forgiving, taking up a cross are only optional extras for them.
Salvation is based on grace through faith in Christ. And THEN the commands for obedience, loving God and man, forgiving and taking up one's cross are given.

You've got the cart before the horse, and your horse don't push.

And there seems to be a blindness preventing understanding anything else.
After all the verses I've shared with you and the total lack of any verses from you, I sure agree about there being a blindness preventing understanding.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I've been warning them that they have NO idea
what "believe" and "faith" mean in the NT.

It's not an intellectual thing.
It's not even a shallow thing.
It's a real deep thing about really "following".
It's all about obedience!
The NT was written in Greek. We know what the words mean by consulting any Greek lexicon.

Your argument ignores the plain meaning of the Greek words used with people who UNDERSTOOD Greek. It's just preposterous to claim that there is some "super-secret" special meaning apart from how the Jews and Greeks of that day understood those words.

If the original text uses any word differently than how that word would be understood by the common people, then the original text WOULD HAVE DEFINED OR DESCRIBED this special meaning as you call it.

What evidence from Scripture shows that "believe" means "follow"?
 
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Aldebaran

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You should know that 1) you are mocking us and 2) you don’t understand the position of those who think we need to love God and man.

It's all one sided, isn't it?
 
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Aldebaran

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So when God asks a man at judgement if they fulfilled the command to love Him, your answer would be, “ah, but your word says it is not that we love you that matters, but that you loved me.”

(“If you love me, you’ll keep my teaching and (then) my father will
love you. And we will come and make our dwelling in you” (those who love God that is.)

Tell me where grace comes into the picture.
Also, tell me what the point was of Christ dying on the cross and being raised again. Why couldn't He just have lived a normal life and death and then all we have to do is love Him enough and do what He said in order to be saved?
 
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Aldebaran

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Untrue, he addressed it perfectly. But what do it edit out the bits that call for anything that costs you anything. Believe doesn’t mean “agree.”

Read Romans 4:1---4:8.

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, has discovered? 2If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those whose lawless acts are forgiven,

whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man

whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”
 
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Aldebaran

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The root problem is the OsAS believers tend to only want to go to Heaven. So only scriptures promising them Heaven are of interest to them especially those requiring only thinking, looking, believing, breathing or anything that is cheap and easy. Scriptures requiring loving God, obeying, forgiving, taking up a cross are only optional extras for them. And there seems to be a blindness preventing understanding anything else.

For the people you claim this to be true, they would be going through life without an intimate relationship with God, and may be without the peace that such a relationship would give. But it doesn't mean that Christ's gift of salvation to those who believe in Him and what He did for us is nullified.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Tell me where grace comes into the picture.
Are you asking because you don't know?

Also, tell me what the point was of Christ dying on the cross and being raised again.
Do you know?

Why couldn't He just have lived a normal life and death and then all we have to do is love Him enough and do what He said in order to be saved?
Is that what you think is reality? It seems so.
 
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Aldebaran

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Are you asking because you don't know?


Do you know?


Is that what you think is reality? It seems so.

I think you have me confused with someone else. :oldthumbsup: I'm Aldebaran.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I think you have me confused with someone else. :oldthumbsup: I'm Aldebaran.
Oh my. I sure did. So sorry. I thought I was responding to Dorothy Mae's post.

In fact, your posts are quite to the point and biblical. I've been enjoying them very much! Keep up the good work!

:oldthumbsup:
 
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ItIsFinished!

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Do you mean that ...
the NT Scriptures I put together are spiritual Truth?
I sure hope so.

All I'm ever trying to do is ...
to point out Scripture verses
that pastors don't teach on
and most BACs here don't believe on!
Friend , you should refrain from making generalized blanket statements such as the above in your quoted post.

Do you know the majority of pastors in America let alone abroad to make such a broad statement as to what they do or do not teach?

Of course you do not.

Do you know the majority of born again Christians on this particular site (as you stated) to make such a broad statement as to what they do or do not believe?

Of course you do not.
And the thread title is 100% absolutely incorrect and should be corrected in whatever fashion possible.
It misrepresents the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. And, takes the focus off of Him and puts it on the recipient of the one who is receiving salvation , as well as putting conditions on the recipient regarding the gift of salvation.

The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is sufficient. No need to ADD ANYTHING to that fact.

I believe your intentions were not ill intended .

Peace in our Saviours name.
 
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BCsenior

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The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is sufficient. No need to ADD ANYTHING to that fact.
Thank you for your reply.

Yes, what Jesus did was more than sufficient for
all the purposes that He came to earth to do!

But, when Jesus said, "It is finished!", He meant
that His work/travail on earth was finally finished.
 
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Strong in Him

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Yes, what Jesus did was more than sufficient for
all the purposes that He came to earth to do!

But, when Jesus said, "It is finished!", He meant
that His work/travail on earth was finally finished.

Yes, he had finished/completed/achieved what he came to do - which was to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, to give his life as a ransom, Mark 10:45 and to reconcile us to God, Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:18.
He did not say, or mean, "my work is over so it's over to you now; see if you can achieve salvation with God". Or "I've achieved partial salvation for you; whether you are finally saved, is up to you and your efforts". Or "I've seen to it that my Father will at least think about saving you, but you really need to show him that you want it."

Otherwise, what Good News do we have to share?
"Good News: you are a sinner and cannot save yourself, but if you believe that Christ died in agony for you then there is a way in which you CAN earn your salvation; just believe and work hard for the next 30+ years"?
Or
"Good News: God loves you very much and sent Jesus to die for you - but whether or not you'll ever get to go to heaven, is conditional upon your hard work. God IS like a celestial Santa Claus and you'll only get rewarded if you are very good".
Or
"Good News: you have to EARN salvation from God, just like you've had to try to earn your parent's approval, and almost everything else in your life"?

Some "Good News"!
But the fact is that Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8. He died for those who were far from God, hated God, could not get near to him and could do nothing to save themselves.
When Adam sinned, mankind's relationship with God was broken. In his mercy, God gave people a way to atone for what they had done so they could be forgiven; the sacrificial system, followed by his law and covenant. But people were unable to keep his law and fully obey him - instead of trying to obey him and not sin, but use the sacrifices for if they DID, people began to take the attitude 'we'll do what we want and repent/offer the correct sacrifice later'.

Yes, deeds are important; they show others, ourselves and God that we mean it when we repented - they are evidence that we have received forgiveness, salvation, eternal life and are living in praise and gratitude to God. Jews in the OT were not doing this. They offered sacrifices, asked for forgiveness and carried on doing the same things as they had before. There are doubtless some today who take the same kind of attitude - "oh, we can always repent later!". THAT is not the mark of someone who has received grace, mercy and the love of God

But that is not the same as saying, "well, you're not saved until the end of your life, and it's only conditional upon the fact that you did enough".
In his mercy, God did what we had no hope of being able to do; reconciled us to himself. The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23 - we sinned and deserved those wages. Yet he himself offered the sacrifice for our salvation and reconciliation; his son. When Abraham was told to go and offer his son as a sacrifice to God, he was prepared to obey. When Isaac asked where the lamb for the sacrifice was, Abraham replied, "God himself will provide the lamb for the offering", Genesis 22:8.
That was a prophecy and foreshadowing of what was to come. Centuries later, God himself DID provide the Lamb - himself; Jesus the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Reconciliation between man and God complete; eternal life made possible - "it is finished".
 
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