Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Erik Nelson · Feb 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Are you saying the judgment of the dead described in John 5:27-30 occurred during the first century?

.

The first century was A judgment against Babylon. The first century was not THE final judgment at the resurrection. (?)

BABerean2 · Feb 20, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
The first century was A judgment against Babylon. The first century was not THE final judgment at the resurrection. (?)

I noticed your quotes by Frank Turek.
He is an excellent apologist for our faith.
I have agreed with almost everything I have heard from him.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 23, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Mark 13:4 Tell to us! when? these shall be being, and what? the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these.
Luke 21:7 They inquire yet of Him saying “Teacher! when? then shall these be being, and what? the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming?

Here a list of some of the verses that use the greek word "mellow<3195>

3195. mello a strengthened form of 3199
(through the idea of expectation); to intend, i.e. be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation):
about, after that, be (almost), (that which is, things, + which was for) to come, intend, was to (be), mean, mind, be at the point, (be) ready, + return, shall (begin), (which, that) should (after, afterwards, hereafter) tarry, which was for, will, would, be yet.

MELLO (#3195) - The Dangerous Greek Word That Has Been Removed From Most English Translations

Mat 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about<3195> wrath?
Luk 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee from the being about<3195> wrath?

Mat 16:27
'For the Son of Man is being about>3195> to be coming<2064> in the glory of Father of Him with His Messengers,
and then He shall be paying<591> to each according to his practice<4264>

Rev 3:10
'Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance and I
shall be keeping/guarding thee from the hour of the trial the one being about<3918> to be coming<2064> upon all the inhabited-land<3625> to try those dwelling upon the land.

Mat 24:6
Ye shall be being about<3195> to yet be hearing of wars and reports of wars; see, be not troubled,
for it behoveth all these to come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Luk 21:36
watch ye then, in every season<2540>, praying that ye shall be prevailing/strong to be escaping all these things being about to<3195> be coming to pass,
and to stand before the Son of Man.'
Luk 24:21
and we were hoping that He is being the One being about<3195> to be redeeming<3084> the Israel,
and also with all these things, this third day is passing to-day, since these things happened.
Jhn 11:51
And this he said not of himself, but being chief priest of that year, he did prophesy that Jesus was about to be<3195> dying for sake of the nation,

Act 11:28
and one of them, by name Agabus, having stood up, did signify through the Spirit a great famine to be being about<3195> to be throughout upon whole inhabited-land<3625> -- which also came to pass in the time of Claudius Caesar --

Rom 5:14
but reigns the death from Adam unto Moses upon those not sinning upon the likeness of Adam's transgression,
who is being a type of the one being about.<3195>
2Ti 4:1
I am testifying/witnessing before the God and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is being about<3195> to be judging living and dead at His manifestation and his kingdom.

Heb 13:14
For not we are having here a being permanent<3306> city,
but the one being about<3195> we are seeking.
2 Pe 2:6
and cities of Sodom and Gomorrah reduced to ashes, to overthrow He condemns<2632>,
an example of being bout<3195> to be being upon irreverent having set.

Rev 1:19
'Write! then which things thou saw and which things are being and which things is being about<3195> to be becoming after these;
Rev 3:2
become becoming watching<1127>! and stand-fast<4741> the rest which were about<3195> to be dying, for I have not found thy works fulfilled before God.
Rev 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh Messenger, whenever he may be being about<3195> to be trumpeting,
and is finished<5055> the mystery of the God
as He evangelizes<2097> His own Bondslaves and the Prophets.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 13, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Mark leaves out "sabbath"
Luke doesn't mention winter in his Gospel.
Matthew 24:20 and pray ye that your flight may not be in winter<5494> nor on a sabbath;
Mark 13:18 and pray ye that your flight may not be in winter

Erik Nelson said:
Perhaps because Saint Peter was preaching to Gentiles in Rome and so omitted reference to a particular Jewish custom. And tradition.

Could the Sabbath also include Passover?
That is the period which Josephus says Titus encompassed Jerusalem.......

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.

Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly ; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the swift-darting lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. xxiv. 27, and Luke xxi 35,) but justifying, also, his friendly direction, that those who fled from the place should use the utmost possible expedition. .....................................

The vial of divine wrath, which had been so long pouring out upon this devoted city was now emptying, and JERUSALEM, once "a praise in all the earth," and the subject of a thousand prophecies, deprived of' the staff of life, wrapt in flames, and bleeding on every side sunk into utter ruin and desolation.
This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months,
the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

.......................

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 13, 2019

BABerean2 said: ↑
Check the Greek on the following and see if you can make it work with your form of preterism.

Good advice..........

Erik Nelson said:
well, Greek CRISIS is used in Rev 18:10, 19:2 for the judgement of Babylon in the first century

Hello Erik. Indeed it is.........for those with eyes to see...............

Matthew 23
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the geennhV <1067> [Revelation 18:10 Revelation 19:2]
37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
38 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate<2048>

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Rev 18:10
From afar<3113> having stood because of the fear of the tormenting of Her saying
"Woe! woe! the great City Babylon! the strong City!
That to one hour came the judging<2920> of Thee.

Rev 18:8
8Thru this in one day shall be arriving Her blows,
death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned,
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging<2919> Her.
Rev 18:20
‘Be making merry<2165> over Her, O heaven, and the Saints, the Apostles and the Prophets,
that the GOD judges<2919> the judgment<2917> of ye out of Her!’
Rev 19:2
That true and righteous His judgings<2920>,
that He judges<2919> the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom,
and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 30, 2019

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,
that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>

2411. hieron neuter of 2413;
a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.
================================

G2411 matches the Greek ἱερόν (hieron), occurs 71 times in 67 verses

A few verses from the Gospels:

Mat 4:5
Then the Devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the Temple,
Mat 26:55
In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the Temple, and you did not seize Me.

Mar 11:11
And Jesus went into Jerusalem and into the Temple. So when He had looked around at all things, as the hour was already late, He went out to Bethany with the twelve.
Mar 14:49
“I was daily with you in the Temple teaching, and you did not seize Me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

Luk 2:27
So He came by the Spirit into the Temple.
And when the parents brought in the Child Jesus, to do for Him according to the custom of the law,
Luk 22:53
“When I was with you daily in the Temple, you did not try to seize Me.
But this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”

Jhn 2:14
And He found in the Temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. [Revelation 18:11]

Revelation 18:11 And the Merchants of the land are lamenting and mourning over Her, that their cargo<1117> no one is buying anymore.
12 Cargo of........... and cattle and sheep and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.

Jhn 18:20
Jesus answered him, “I spoke openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues and in the Temple, where the Jews always meet,[fn] and in secret I have said nothing.
=================================
Outside of the Gospels, it is used in Acts, only 1 verse of the Epistles and none in Revelation. I will put up 1 verse from each chapter of Acts:

Act 2:46
So continuing daily with one accord in the Temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
Act 3:1
Now Peter and John went up together to the Temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
Act 4:1
Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the Temple, and the Sadducees came upon them,
Act 5:20
“Go, stand in the Temple and speak to the people all the words of this life.”
Act 19:27
“So not only is this trade of ours in danger of falling into disrepute, but also the Temple of the great goddess Diana may be despised and her magnificence destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worship.”
Act 21:26
Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the Temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them.
Act 22:17
“Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the Temple, that I was in a trance
Act 24:6
“He even tried to profane the Temple, and we seized him, and wanted to judge him according to our law.
Act 25:8
while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the Temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”
Act 26:21
“For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.
=====================================
Last time used in NT

1Co 9:13
Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the Temple,
and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar?
===========================================

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 1, 2019

"..not shall be left STONE UPON STONE in Thee.." Jerusalem/Temple Discourse

Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
Amen I am saying to ye,
not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”

Mark 13:2
And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>

Luke 21:6
“These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>
[Luke 19:44]
================================================
Those verses are also mentioned in Luke 19 concerning the complete City
Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her, 42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in this day, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee from-every-side. 44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".
==============================================
https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations,
and so completely leveled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! -- This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"

.............................

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 6, 2019

D P.............

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 14, 2019

BABerean2 said: ↑
Check the Greek on the following and see if you can make it work with your form of preterism.

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

Erik Nelson said: ↑
well, Greek CRISIS is used in Rev 18:10, 19:2 for the judgement of Babylon in the first century

BABerean2 said: ↑
Are you saying the judgment of the dead described in John 5:27-30 occurred during the first century?

Erik Nelson said:
The first century was A judgment against Babylon. The first century was not THE final judgment at the resurrection. (?)

Very interesting post.......thks Eric...........

Erik Nelson · Apr 15, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
[]/quoteBABerean2 said: ↑
Check the Greek on the following and see if you can make it work with your form of preterism.

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

Erik Nelson said: ↑
well, Greek CRISIS is used in Rev 18:10, 19:2 for the judgement of Babylon in the first century

Very interesting post.......thks Eric...........

Daniel 12:2. Appears to link a resurrection of some sort to the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week of Daniel appears to describe. The year 70. AD destruction of the physical temple.

If so, there must have been some sort of resurrection in the first century.

In the Greek LXX. Language of Daniel 12:2, appears superficially similar to that of Matthew 27:52-53

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 15, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Daniel 12:2. Appears to link a resurrection of some sort to the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week of Daniel appears to describe. The year 70. AD destruction of the physical temple.
If so, there must have been some sort of resurrection in the first century.
In the Greek LXX. Language of Daniel 12:2, appears superficially similar to that of Matthew 27:52-53

Yes it does.
I found the 2 Greek words used in those verses and what an event!

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2837. koimao from 2749;
to put to sleep, i.e. (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively, to decease:--(be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
1453. egeiro eg-i'-ro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep,

Mat 27:52
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep<2837> were roused<1453>;

2518. katheudo from 2596 and heudo
(to sleep); to lie down to rest, i.e. (by implication) to fall asleep (literally or figuratively):--(be a-)sleep.
1825. exegeiro from 1537 and 1453;
to rouse fully, i.e. (figuratively) to resuscitate (from death), release (from infliction):--raise up.

Daniel 12:2 - Apostolic Bible Polyglot Greek-English Interlinear

Daniel 12:2
2532 και And 4183 πολλοί many 3588 των of the ones 2518 καθευδόντων sleeping 1722 εν in 1093 γης [2of earth 5560.1 χώματι 1an embankment] 1825 εξεγερθήσονται shall awaken, 3778 ούτοι these 1519 εις unto 2222 ζωήν [2life 166 αιώνιον 1eternal], 2532 και and 3778 ούτοι these others 1519 εις unto 3680 ονειδισμόν scorning, 2532 και and 1519 εις for 152 αισχύνην [2shame 166 αιώνιον 1eternal]

LittleLambofJesus · May 30, 2019

Bump for more discussion............

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 19, 2019

If one studies the Greek, they can clearly see that Luke 19:43, Luke 21:20-24, Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 20:9 are one and the same event

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2944. kukloo from the same as 2945; to encircle, i.e. surround:--compass (about), come (stand) round about.
2943. kuklothen adverb from the same as 2945; from the circle, i.e. all around:--(round) about.
2945. kukloi as if dative case of kuklos (a ring, "cycle"; akin to 2947); i.e. in a circle (by implication, of 1722), i.e. (adverbially) all around:--round about.

4033. perikukloo from 4012 and 2944; to encircle all around, i.e. blockade completely:--compass round
4012. peri from the base of 4008; properly, through (all over), i.e. around; figuratively with respect to; used in various applications, of place, cause or time
2944. kukloo from the same as 2945; to encircle, i.e. surround:--compass (about), come (stand) round about.

Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee, and Thy Enemies shall be casting up a rampart<5482> to Thee, and shall be encompassing<4033> Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months

Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee, and Thy Enemies shall be casting up a rampart<5482> to Thee, and shall be encompassing<4033> Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

Revelation 20:9
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded<2944> the camp of the saints and the beloved City. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

mmksparbud · Jun 19, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
If one studies the Greek, they can clearly see that Luke 19:43, Luke 21:20-24, Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 20:9 are one and the same event

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2944. kukloo from the same as 2945; to encircle, i.e. surround:--compass (about), come (stand) round about.
2943. kuklothen adverb from the same as 2945; from the circle, i.e. all around:--(round) about.
2945. kukloi as if dative case of kuklos (a ring, "cycle"; akin to 2947); i.e. in a circle (by implication, of 1722), i.e. (adverbially) all around:--round about.

4033. perikukloo from 4012 and 2944; to encircle all around, i.e. blockade completely:--compass round
4012. peri from the base of 4008; properly, through (all over), i.e. around; figuratively with respect to; used in various applications, of place, cause or time
2944. kukloo from the same as 2945; to encircle, i.e. surround:--compass (about), come (stand) round about.

Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee, and Thy Enemies shall be casting up a rampart<5482> to Thee, and shall be encompassing<4033> Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months

Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee, and Thy Enemies shall be casting up a rampart<5482> to Thee, and shall be encompassing<4033> Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.

Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded<2944> by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

Revelation 20:9
They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded<2944> the camp of the saints and the beloved City. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Fire came down from heaven when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem???

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 20, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Fire came down from heaven when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem???

Another view could be the fire from the Roman army destroying the Jewish rebels/Zealots that were destroying Jerusalem before the Roman army arrived?
I will have to study more on this in relation to Daniel and Olivet Discourse........
God never called the Romans "rebels" but used them to punish them.....they started getting destructive in about 67 ad during the Jewish Wars.

Ezekiel 20:38 -
“I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

Dan 8:23 - “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

Hos 5:2 - The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.
Hos 9:15 - All their evil is at Gilgal; Indeed, I came to hate them there!Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury.

The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts.

At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear
==================================

mmksparbud · Jun 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Another view could be the fire from the Roman army destroying the Jewish rebels/Zealots that were destroying Jerusalem before the Roman army arrived?
I will have to study more on this in relation to Daniel and Olivet Discourse........
God never called the Romans "rebels" but used them to punish them.....they started getting destructive in about 67 ad during the Jewish Wars.

Ezekiel 20:38 -
“I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

Dan 8:23 - “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

Hos 5:2 - The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.
Hos 9:15 - All their evil is at Gilgal; Indeed, I came to hate them there!Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury.

The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example. Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength.

At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance.

A ceaseless cry of combatants was heard day and night, and yet the lamentations of mourners were still more dreadful. The consternation and terror which now prevailed induced many inhabitants to desire that a foreign foe might come, and effect their deliverance. Such was the horrible condition of the place when Titus and his army presented themselves, and encamped before Jerusalem ; but, alas ! not to deliver it from its miseries but to fulfill the prediction, and vindicate the benevolent warning of our Lord : "When ye see (he had said to his disciples) the abomination of desolation, spoken or by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, [11] and Jerusalem surrounded by armies (or camps,) then let those who are in the midst of Jerusalem depart, and let not those who are in the country enter into her," for " then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." Matt. xxiv. 15, 21 ; Luke xxi. 20, 1-11.

These armies, we do not hesitate to affirm were those of the Romans, who now invested the city. From the time of the Babylonian captivity, idolatry had been held as an abomination by the Jews. This national aversion was manifested even against the images of their gods and emperors, which the Roman armies carried in their standards ; so that, in a time of peace, Pilate, and afterwards Vitellius, at the request of some eminent Jews, on this account avoided marching their forces throu' Judea. Of the desolating disposition which now governed the Roman army, the history of the Jewish war, and especially of the final demolition of the holy city, presents an awful and signal example. Jerusalem was not captured merely, but, with its celebrated temple, laid in ruins. Lest, however, the army of Titus should not be sufficiently designated by this expression, our LORD adds, "Wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together." Matt. xxiv. 28.

The Jewish state, indeed, at this time, was fitly compared to a carcass. The sceptre of Judah, i . e . its civil and political authority, the life of its religion, and the glory of its temple, were departed. It was, in short, morally and judicially dead. The eagle, whose ruling instinct is rapine and murder, as fitly represented the fierce and sanguinary temper of the Romans, and, perhaps, might be intended to refer also to the principal figure on their ensigns, which, however obnoxious to the Jews, were at length planted in the midst of the holy city, and finally on the temple itself.
==================================

Still does not equate with fire coming down from God---Sodom and Gomorrah was fire coming down from God. The Roman army is not fire coming down from God. God allowed it, and foretold it---but the fire was from the Roman army not from heaven.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 20, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Still does not equate with fire coming down from God---Sodom and Gomorrah was fire coming down from God. The Roman army is not fire coming down from God. God allowed it, and foretold it---but the fire was from the Roman army not from heaven.

Well, no problem.
That doesn't happen until the Gog-Magog event anyway

Armageddon however was 1st century Israel/Judea/Jerusalem..........just ask the Jews

mmksparbud · Jun 20, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Well, no problem.
That doesn't happen until the Gog-Magog event anyway [I am Amil/Partial Preterist btw]

Armageddon however was 1st century Israel/Judea/Jerusalem..........just ask the Jews

Reve 18:16 "woe! woe! the great City arrayed with fine linen, purple

Revelation 17:15
And He is saying to me "These the Waters which thou saw, where the harlot is sitting, are peoples and multitudes<3793> are being, and nations and tongues.
16 And the ten Horns which thou saw and the Beast, These shall be hating the harlot,
and They shall be making Her desolate<2049> and naked,
and the fleshes of Her they shall be eating<5315>
and shall be burning<2618> Her in fire.

Eze 23:10
They uncovered her nakedness,
Took away her sons and daughters,
And slew her with the sword;
She became a byword among women, For they had executed judgment on her.

Nah 3:5
“Behold, I am against you,” says the LORD of hosts;“I will lift your skirts over your face,
I will show the nations your nakedness, And the kingdoms your shame.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:
18 And they cried<2896>, observing the smoke of Her burning, saying, "What like to the great City?"
19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>,
for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>.

This is the real Armageddon:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 20, 2019

mmksparbud said:
This is the real Armageddon:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

No. That is the Gog-Magog event, which is the next event to come............ :idea:

mmksparbud · Jun 20, 2019

Luke 21:20 “Whenever ye see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,
then know that nigh is Her desolation.

The desolation of Jerusalem is neigh??? The New Jerusalem will never be made desolate, that already happened with the destruction of Jerusalem. The one I mentioned is an attempt by Satan and all his followers against the New Jerusalem after the 1000 years. That marks the end of all sinners.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 the same event?

Yes

No

I don't know

Other [please explain]

Matthew 24 all fulfilled

Matthew 24 partially fulfilled

None of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

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