Faith plus works

Shimokita · Apr 14, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Of course it is...I have nothing better to do than spin a yarn.

Can you make me a sweater?

mister rogers · Apr 14, 2019

trulytheone said:
In a debate about faith and works, there should be an agreed definition for both terms. So, what is faith? Is it a mere profession of belief that is granted by God's grace? What do you mean by works?

Probably good to read about Erasmus vs. Luther on free will.

anna ~ grace · Apr 14, 2019

Just_a_Christian said:
This I believe.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: - Ephesians 2:8
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Romans 8:24
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Acts 22:16
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 10:47-48
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.For he that is dead is freed from sin.Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: - Romans 6:3-8
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2 Corinthians 5:17
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:9
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:10
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5
And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 18:26-27
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:15-17
What do you believe?
In Him

That by trusting and following Christ, we are saved by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And that our salvation is a journey.

Just_a_Christian · Apr 14, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
That by trusting and following Christ, we are saved by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And that our salvation is a journey.

Which is pretty much what the scriptures I quoted says. I have answered every question you have posed to me and I have backed it up with chapter and verse. Several weeks ago I gave you a scenario where 2 or 3 people in Singapore started studying God's word and followed His direction in becoming a Christian. You replied to me an "Ah Hah, there it is" and I asked that you elaborate on your Ah ha moment. You never did. Again, please elaborate, privately if you desire.
In Him

Kenny'sID · Apr 14, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
True saving Faith begets works worthy of faith.

Speaking of those who try to confuse things into "We need not do good in order to make it to heaven because we are already in just by "saying" we have faith, and we need not prove that faith, plus there are no conditions to salvation". For them I like putting it this way... "Faith in God means we jolly well better do as he says or go to hell."

thesunisout · Apr 14, 2019

mister rogers said:
Not sure this belongs in the controversial section, but we'll see how it goes anyway.

Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone is what excommunicated Luther from Rome and began the Reformation, correct? My question then is, if there are any since then who have adopted again a belief of some kind in salvation by faith plus works, should they still be considered more in line with the Reformation or the likes of Rome again?

A faith which is alive will produce good works. Works don't merit your salvation but they are important because they will merit you rewards. If your works are impure you won't receive a reward for them. If none of your works merit a reward you will still enter heaven but it says it will be like passing through a fire.

Albion · Apr 14, 2019

Shimokita said:
Never mind. The link states this: "believers are justified, or declared righteous before God, solely by faith." This language is the exact opposite of James 2:24, so obviously the answer is that the language of the Bible is wrong. I cannot accept that, sorry.

Justification is not merely the initial declaration of righteousness before God. This is the root of the problem why Protestants cannot recite the language of James 2:24 in their theology. If you understood and used the nature of justification in the proper sense, you would not need to change the language of Scripture to fit your theology.

Well, I have tried to explain our position to you, and you would not entertain that explanation, so this was perhaps a better one, I thought. But if you insist upon misreading James, and stopping there, there isn't much more I can do to help.

Ill leave you with the suggestion of reading the following:

Romans 4:5
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 5:1

Ronald · Apr 14, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
How much is us and how much is God...?

Is anything required on our part, anything at all...? Or not...?

Does it have to be all God, lest you should get or be able to take some credit for your own salvation, obedience, or "whatever" (anything that is supposed to be a gift or fruit of the Spirit) (from walking in and with and (from our times of) being (one with) the Spirit) (and sowing in and to the Spirit)...

God Bless!

For it is by Grace through faith that we are saved and this not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, so no one can boast. Eph.2:8, 9
You can't earn salvation, that would lessen what Christ did. He said it is finished. We could not keep the law, so He fulfilled it for us.
DO you think you do good works?
The Bible says everything that is good comes from God AND you can do nothing without God. So there you ha e it. Men are prideful they want so much to take credit. Watch out. Nebuchadnezzar said, "Did not I build all this?" What happened to him right after thise words?
We cooperate and so in the end we get a well done for that.

Shimokita · Apr 14, 2019

Albion said:
Well, I have tried to explain our position to you, and you would not entertain that explanation, so this was perhaps a better one, I thought. But if you insist upon misreading James, and stopping there, there isn't much more I can do to help.

Ill leave you with the suggestion of reading the following:

Romans 4:5
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 5:1

I have misread it? I find that to be rather amusing, friend. Here is what I wrote:

"I believe that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only".

Here is what James 2:24 states:

"a person is justified by works and not by faith alone".

You must have a very strange definition of "misread" because the only thing I wrote is exactly what the text states.

Kenny'sID · Apr 14, 2019

Ronald said:
DO you think you do good works?
The Bible says everything that is good comes from God AND you can do nothing without God.

You badly misunderstand that, of course we can do good works, what do you think we're going to be rewarded for in heaven if it's not our good works? And yes good comes from God because he tells us to do good, that simple, but it still takes our cooperation and faith/belief, and the action of OUR doing to get the good works done.

Also, if Jesus didn't think we could do Good works, he would not have said:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned

I love that verse, and must have used it a dozen times on like threads the last couple of days, and will continue to.

Neogaia777 · Apr 14, 2019

Ronald said:
For it is by Grace through faith that we are saved and this not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, so no one can boast. Eph.2:8, 9
You can't earn salvation, that would lessen what Christ did. He said it is finished. We could not keep the law, so He fulfilled it for us.
DO you think you do good works?
The Bible says everything that is good comes from God AND you can do nothing without God. So there you ha e it. Men are prideful they want so much to take credit. Watch out. Nebuchadnezzar said, "Did not I build all this?" What happened to him right after thise words?
We cooperate and so in the end we get a well done for that.

I just have a desire and a plan to try and go out and do them, and this time, it's just simply because "I want to" and it brings me joy, so...

I do some now, but have a plan in mind to implement soon that may allow me to do very much more...

I'm not trying to earn anything, I'm trying to show Christ in me by my love of people, that He put in me, ect, that is His, ect... And while I don't always do or live up to it perfectly, I do try, and as I said have a plan now, that may allow me to "do" more at least... Possibly through it be or become more maybe...? For them, to them, I meant...

I'm possibly trying to "prepare for it" maybe...? Where I will make attempts or try to be the personal hands and feet of Jesus, personally and in person, ect...

God Bless!

Kenny'sID · Apr 14, 2019

Neogaia777 said:
I'm not trying to earn anything,

Me neither, as long as I can please God and it helps others, who cares? at least thaqt's the way I've come to see it after first doing it just because God said we had to. And I believe that is just the attitude God wants of us so rewards are now in just the feeling we get from helping others, and they will also be awarded in heaven.

Gregory Thompson · Apr 14, 2019

mister rogers said:
Not sure this belongs in the controversial section, but we'll see how it goes anyway.

Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone is what excommunicated Luther from Rome and began the Reformation, correct? My question then is, if there are any since then who have adopted again a belief of some kind in salvation by faith plus works, should they still be considered more in line with the Reformation or the likes of Rome again?

Faith is like breathing, works is like exercise.

You cannot exercise without oxygen.
In the same way, you cannot do the Godly works without first trusting God to take in the Holy Spirit.

Exercise and work is part of the new life, but trust is the main thing.

As some may remember from first aid "Airway" is the number one priority.

Ronald · Apr 14, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
You badly misunderstand that, of course we can do good works, what do you think we're going to be rewarded for in heaven if it's not our good works? And yes good comes from God because he tells us to do good, that simple, but it still takes our cooperation and faith/belief, and the action of OUR doing to get the good works done.

Also, if Jesus didn't think we could do Good works, he would not have said:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned

I love that verse, and must have used it a dozen times on like threads the last couple of days, and will continue to.

I'm just making an argument that our salvation is by faith alone. Works are a reault of God's work in us. The point I was making is that man can do nothing without God and those who would think they earned the gift have a pride issue.

anna ~ grace · Apr 14, 2019

Just_a_Christian said:
Which is pretty much what the scriptures I quoted says. I have answered every question you have posed to me and I have backed it up with chapter and verse. Several weeks ago I gave you a scenario where 2 or 3 people in Singapore started studying God's word and followed His direction in becoming a Christian. You replied to me an "Ah Hah, there it is" and I asked that you elaborate on your Ah ha moment. You never did. Again, please elaborate, privately if you desire.
In Him

The simplest answer I can give, would be John 10:16.

There is One Fold, not many equally valid folds, but still, Christ knows His sheep, and can and will gather them all in.

There are many Christians in exactly that situation; they are isolated, have access to comparatively little, and do the best they can with faith, prayer, obedience, and a New Testament, if that. Christ can and will gather them, too.

DeepWater · Apr 14, 2019

HTacianas said:
Jas 2:24

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

James is explaining that before MEN, you are justified by your lifestyle.
This is related to "you shall know them by their fruit."
"you shall know them"......= you shall watch their lifestyle, and discover if they are following Christ or NOT...."by their FRUIT".
See it?
So, this is what James is explaining.....that before people you are justified in THEIR EYES< by your Christian Discipleship, .....so, is it alive or dead? Thats what he is asking you.....Are you walking the walk in life, or are you just trying to troll on a Christian forum and create chaos and arguments because you are a carnal person who likes to upset peace and cause strife..........Understand, reader?
So, before MEN< James says they have to SEE YOU LIVE IT, ( SPIRITUAL FRUIT) exactly as...="by your DEEDS, your FRUIT, shall nonbelievers and believers KNOW IF YOU ARE THE REAL DEAL"
Understand James now?
So, before men you are justified or not by your WORKS, but before GOD all your works are as "filthy rags"< as they are compared to Jesus.
So, do you understand that part?
You are never EVER justified by your works, or your enduring to the end, or your holding unto your faith, or whatever you think you need to DO to make yourself and keep yourself righteous, before God.
All that is a SELF RIGHTEOUS FAIL, as the only thing that God accepts on your behalf, to save you, and keep you saved, is never what you are doing before the PUBLIC, that James is talking about.
So, get that,......learn THAT.
God never accepts you, based on you or your lifestyle.....never.
He only saved you, accepted you, because of what CHRIST DID for you, on a Cross.
So, you are justified before men (James) by your lifestyle, (Fruit) and God justifies you as His own, by your FAITH.
He accepts or accepted your FAITH, to then give you HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, as that is what you have to have, and NOT YOURS, to be saved.
Salvation, is God making you Righteous, thru the Blood of Jesus The Christ, so that He can accept you into His family, as Only God's righteousness given to you as a free gift can make you acceptable to God....and never your works.

JLB777 · Apr 14, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Address my argument and you have a discussion.

I will address scripture, not your “argument”.

Produce a scripture that says we are saved by “faith alone”, or repent of promoting false doctrine.

One or the other.

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17

JLB

Jonaitis · Apr 14, 2019

JLB777 said:
Produce a scripture that says we are saved by “faith alone”, or repent of promoting false doctrine.

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it - the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifer of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." - Romans 3:21-28

"...we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so that we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." - Galatians 2:16

In calling a gospel principle a false doctrine, you endanger yourself.

James' argument is the same as Paul's argument in Romans 2:6-29. Paul addresses the same issue James addresses in his book. For Paul says,

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." - Romans 2:13

^^fit that with what I quoted above from the next chapter in Romans where he says we are justified apart from the law. Is it a contradiction? No, people are missing what Paul and James are saying here. Romans 2:13 does not contradict Romans 3:28, even though on the surface it seems so.

Neogaia777 · Apr 14, 2019

DeepWater said:
James is explaining that before MEN, you are justified by your lifestyle.
This is related to "you shall know them by their fruit."
"you shall know them"......= you shall watch their lifestyle, and discover if they are following Christ or NOT...."by their FRUIT".
See it?
So, this is what James is explaining.....that before people you are justified in THEIR EYES< by your Christian Discipleship, .....so, is it alive or dead? Thats what he is asking you.....Are you walking the walk in life, or are you just trying to troll on a Christian forum and create chaos and arguments because you are a carnal person who likes to upset peace and cause strife..........Understand, reader?
So, before MEN< James says they have to SEE YOU LIVE IT, ( SPIRITUAL FRUIT) exactly as...="by your DEEDS, your FRUIT, shall nonbelievers and believers KNOW IF YOU ARE THE REAL DEAL"
Understand James now?
So, before men you are justified or not by your WORKS, but before GOD all your works are as "filthy rags"< as they are compared to Jesus.
So, do you understand that part?
You are never EVER justified by your works, or your enduring to the end, or your holding unto your faith, or whatever you think you need to DO to make yourself and keep yourself righteous, before God.
All that is a SELF RIGHTEOUS FAIL, as the only thing that God accepts on your behalf, to save you, and keep you saved, is never what you are doing before the PUBLIC, that James is talking about.
So, get that,......learn THAT.
God never accepts you, based on you or your lifestyle.....never.
He only saved you, accepted you, because of what CHRIST DID for you, on a Cross.
So, you are justified before men (James) by your lifestyle, (Fruit) and God justifies you as His own, by your FAITH.
He accepts or accepted your FAITH, to then give you HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, as that is what you have to have, and NOT YOURS, to be saved.
Salvation, is God making you Righteous, thru the Blood of Jesus The Christ, so that He can accept you into His family, as Only God's righteousness given to you as a free gift can make you acceptable to God....and never your works.

What if our lifestyle that we feel we have to lead, is, or comes in conflict with, the mainstream, or mainstream views and/or common opinions of "man" basically, or if they are not in conflict, do we need to be justified before men...? And, does Sin have it curses or consequences still for the believer, on top of it being about our being justified before men...? or not...?

God Bless!

Shimokita · Apr 14, 2019

DeepWater said:
James is explaining that before MEN, you are justified by your lifestyle.
This is related to "you shall know them by their fruit."
"you shall know them"......= you shall watch their lifestyle, and discover if they are following Christ or NOT...."by their FRUIT".
See it?
So, this is what James is explaining.....that before people you are justified in THEIR EYES< by your Christian Discipleship, .....so, is it alive or dead? Thats what he is asking you.....Are you walking the walk in life, or are you just trying to troll on a Christian forum and create chaos and arguments because you are a carnal person who likes to upset peace and cause strife..........Understand, reader?
So, before MEN< James says they have to SEE YOU LIVE IT, ( SPIRITUAL FRUIT) exactly as...="by your DEEDS, your FRUIT, shall nonbelievers and believers KNOW IF YOU ARE THE REAL DEAL"
Understand James now?
So, before men you are justified or not by your WORKS, but before GOD all your works are as "filthy rags"< as they are compared to Jesus.
So, do you understand that part?
You are never EVER justified by your works, or your enduring to the end, or your holding unto your faith, or whatever you think you need to DO to make yourself and keep yourself righteous, before God.
All that is a SELF RIGHTEOUS FAIL, as the only thing that God accepts on your behalf, to save you, and keep you saved, is never what you are doing before the PUBLIC, that James is talking about.
So, get that,......learn THAT.
God never accepts you, based on you or your lifestyle.....never.
He only saved you, accepted you, because of what CHRIST DID for you, on a Cross.
So, you are justified before men (James) by your lifestyle, (Fruit) and God justifies you as His own, by your FAITH.
He accepts or accepted your FAITH, to then give you HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, as that is what you have to have, and NOT YOURS, to be saved.
Salvation, is God making you Righteous, thru the Blood of Jesus The Christ, so that He can accept you into His family, as Only God's righteousness given to you as a free gift can make you acceptable to God....and never your works.

LOL, this is a whole lot of mental gymnastics friend. Well it is good to know that it only takes a seven page essay to change “A and not only B” to “B only and not A”.

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