Women's roles: How men from differerent backgrounds (Christian and non) view things

Ttalkkugjil

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It's interesting; we also did Myers-Briggs stuff in seminary; but not so much as a guide to future roles, as food for thought about how to adapt to different roles, work with others, etc.

We talked about that as well. After getting our results we each had to meet individually with a Counselor to discuss them.

As to the roles, I was basically told, "Your type isn't really geared for any kind of vocational ministry." :D

Paidiske said:
Eg. I'm an introvert, so I have to build alone time into my diary to stay effective in ministry, rather than constantly drained and grumpy. I also need to think about the needs of the extroverts in my congregation and how to work with them.

Me too, except that I don't lead a congregation.
 
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Paidiske

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As to the roles, I was basically told, "Your type isn't really geared for any kind of vocational ministry." :D

I think that's rubbish. We all have strengths and weaknesses, and diversity in ministry is a good thing!
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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I think that's rubbish. We all have strengths and weaknesses, and diversity in ministry is a good thing!

I believe that while some are called to vocational ministry, most of us are called to marketplace ministry. I work as a Spiritual Director and as an English Teacher.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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I agree that most are called to vocations besides ordained ministry. I just don't think that's determined by personality type.

Certainly not personality type alone. Things like calling, interests, opportunity and training also come into play.
 
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Paidiske

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Calling is the big one. My church also assesses us on our capacity for healthy relationships, spirituality, intellectual ability and leadership potential in our selection process.

I'm not sure about interests. Again, I think it's good to have clergy with diverse interests. That lets us minister to diverse communities.
 
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FireDragon76

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That, I guess I sensed but I didn't know it was an absolute requirement.

It's more of an unspoken expectation. Keep in mind at various times of Russian history, beards have been a political issue.

Orthodoxy often gets hung up on various externalities like that. They had a schism, and violent repression, in Russia over how many fingers you use to make the sign of the Cross, and how many times you sang "Alleluia" before the Gospel reading.

The Lutheran or Reformed approaches allow alot more dynamism. We typically get more upset about coffee running out in the fellowship hall than what the church down the street is doing. And controversies Orthodox have had make the current controversies about gender and sexuality in Protestantism seem relatively peaceful.
 
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archer75

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It's more of an unspoken expectation. Keep in mind at various times of Russian history, beards have been a political issue.

Orthodoxy often gets hung up on various externalities like that. They had a schism, and violent repression, in Russia over how many fingers you use to make the sign of the Cross, and how many times you sang "Alleluia" before the Gospel reading.

The Lutheran or Reformed approaches allow alot more dynamism. We typically get more upset about coffee running out in the fellowship hall than what the church down the street is doing. And controversies Orthodox have had make the current controversies about gender and sexuality in Protestantism seem relatively peaceful.
Now let's be fair, there was a LITTLE more to the Old Believer schism than the fingers...but yes, it was awful.

We DO get hung up on that stuff sometimes. Not good.
 
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FireDragon76

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Now let's be fair, there was a LITTLE more to the Old Believer schism than the fingers...but yes, it was awful.

We DO get hung up on that stuff sometimes. Not good.

If the Nikonian controversy came up in our church, we would simply recognize that people have different ways of expressing their piety. There are folks at our church that cross themselves and bow to the Cross as it passes by, others do not. Some of us have icons or statues in our homes, others do not. Some kneel more often than others, etc. Some pastors elevate the Host, others don't. Now maybe if somebody started rolling around on the floor or barking like a dog, we might have issues with that, but generally criticizing somebody else's piety is considered low, it's just not done typically.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Luke calls her a "prophetess" in relations to proclaiming good things about Jesus when He was presented at the temple. But these verses in Luke also say that she was an elderly widowed woman who prayed and fasted at the temple and was very devout. She wasn't a priestess or a big voice in the church. It also says that she spoke to all who would listen, so she wasn't speaking to everyone at the temple. It is safe to assume that, though she was a prophet of the Lord and that God spoke through her concerning Jesus, she was not a leader in her community in the way that a man could be.

I think one does not have enough evidence to make these assertions. We don't know how much authority she wielded nor to whom she was given an audience. Many women in the early church were leaders; several are mentioned by name. Paul was taught by Priscilla (and Aquilla).

Jesus restored the equality that man attempted to mess up with his rules and regulations.
 
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Jon Osterman

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I can understand making a little more but I can’t really see twice going down too often successfully (not to say that yours won’t). Maybe for a while but most women are going to lose respect and resent their man if the income disparity between them is that great. She’ll divorce him and look for a spouse with more money.

LOL I know that sounds cynical but there are actually studies on this where they correlate spousal income difference to marriage satisfaction and divorce rates. I think you can Google the studies.

That's not just cynical. It is completely ridiculous, and showsyou have a completely warped worldview. There is absoutely no issue in my family about my earnings compared to my wife's because we do not base our self-worth on our salaries.
 
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Shimokita

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That's not just cynical. It is completely ridiculous, and showsyou have a completely warped worldview. There is absoutely no issue in my family about my earnings compared to my wife's because we do not base our self-worth on our salaries.
Well then you are an exception, don’t take it personally.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Honestly, I just don't subscribe to the notion of "gender roles". Yes, there are biological differences. I don't have a uterus, I don't have eggs, I can't become pregnant. So certain matters of physiology do involve differences.

But "roles" isn't biology. How men and women live out their vocations in their communities has depended, over the millennia, on where and when they lived. There has never been a universal here, human culture has never been homogeneous.

I simply do not subscribe to the idea that one's chromosomes or private parts determines what they can or cannot do in society.

As a Christian I believe that the sinful, broken, worldly orders which keeps human beings divided into different social strata have been dissolved and eradicated in the new humanity of Jesus Christ into which we have been made sharers and partakers. It is in this brilliant truth that St. Paul can say, "For there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" Elsewhere Paul overturns the old orders of things in Ephesians chapters 5 and 6, saying, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ", within that command toward service and love toward one another, in imitation of Jesus Chris, Paul says both wives and husbands should submit to one another, that not only should children obey their parents, but parents should be gentle and respectful of their children, and that masters should serve their slaves. This call and command to love others, to serve others, to give ourselves away freely to others means that we don't get to hold anything back for ourselves; the whole system of power dynamics is turned upside down. Life together ceases to be about a struggle for power, but instead a koinonia rooted in sacrifice, compassion, and genuine love.

Remember how Jesus said, "Whoever seeks to gain his life shall lose it, but whoever forsakes his life shall gain it."? And how He also said, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world but forfeit his soul?" How about when He said, "The greatest among you will be your slave"? or "The one who is least among you is greatest."?

There's no room for glory in the Christian life. Ours is a life defined by the cross, shaped and molded by the example we have in our Lord Jesus who willingly and lovingly gave Himself away, throwing Himself away in love for us, for all of us. So there's no room for trying to be on top, there's no room to try and seek power, or try and lord over others, or to erect barriers between us as though "these over here are lesser" or "we over here are greater"--this does not exist here. If there is any room for competition, it is this, "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Outdo yourselves in honoring one another." (Romans 12:10). Love, hold nothing back. Give, expect nothing in return. Be kind for the sake of kindness, seek humility, honor others and esteem them more than yourself. Knowing that whether in living or in dying, our lives are not our own, they belong to Jesus Christ.

"For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
" - 2 Corinthians 5:14-21

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FireDragon76

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We talked about that as well. After getting our results we each had to meet individually with a Counselor to discuss them.

As to the roles, I was basically told, "Your type isn't really geared for any kind of vocational ministry." :D

There's lots of pastors that are introverted. My own pastor is an extrovert, but being an introvert is not a barrier necessarily. It just means you have to pace yourself more.

A pastor's job is not necessarily to be an entertainer, therapist, or life coach, but to tell you broad truths about God and human life, and if need be, to contextualize those truths to a given individual's situation. That requires values like compassion and empathy, but those are not things restricted to a specific personality type.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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There's lots of pastors that are introverted. My own pastor is an extrovert, but being an introvert is not a barrier necessarily. It just means you have to pace yourself more.

A pastor's job is not necessarily to be an entertainer, therapist, or life coach, but to tell you broad truths about God and human life, and if need be, to contextualize those truths to a given individual's situation. That requires values like compassion and empathy, but those are not things restricted to a specific personality type.

It wasn't just my being an introvert. It was preferred cognitive functions of FiSeNiTe. They didn't say that I couldn't be in vocational ministry, just that my type isn't commonly found in it.
 
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FireDragon76

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It wasn't just my being an introvert. It was preferred cognitive functions of FiSeNiTe. They didn't say that I couldn't be in vocational ministry, just that my type isn't commonly found in it.

Maybe you could elaborate on that?

I often find the best sermons are actually done by one of our women at the children's church part of the service. She doesn't have a great deal of formal theological training, but they are appropriate for her audience.

The times Pastor tries to do children's church, invariably the children get the better of him and usually they are the ones doing the sermon.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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Maybe you could elaborate on that?

I often find the best sermons are actually done by one of our women at the children's church part of the service. She doesn't have a great deal of formal theological training, but they are appropriate for her audience.

The times Pastor tries to do children's church, invariably the children get the better of him and usually they are the ones doing the sermon.

ISFP's like myself are more commonly found in such fields as art, design, animal care, elementary education, and health care. Of course, we can do any job - but it is more rare. I enjoy my work as a Spiritual Director and Native English Teacher. The former isn't something ISFP's typically go into, spiritual directing more of an intuitive thing, but it works for me. I do have formal theological training. My MDiv major was missional theology.
 
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FireDragon76

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ISFP's like myself are more commonly found in such fields as art, design, animal care, elementary education, and health care. Of course, we can do any job - but it is more rare. I enjoy my work as a Spiritual Director and Native English Teacher. The former isn't something ISFP's typically go into, spiritual directing more of an intuitive thing, but it works for me. I do have formal theological training. My MDiv major was missional theology.

OK, I see what you mean. You do seem more like a concrete-oriented type of person. That actually might be useful for being a spiritual director.

I'm an INFP or INTJ, because I'm on the borderline between those two.
 
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Ttalkkugjil

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OK, I see what you mean. You do seem more like a concrete-oriented type of person. That actually might be useful for being a spiritual director.

I'm an INFP or INTJ, because I'm on the borderline between those two.

On the borderline between INFP and INTJ? Wow Fire, i think of those two types as being really quite different. Have you checked out your cognitive functions? There is a big gap imho between an intuitive feeler and a thinking intuitive.
 
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FireDragon76

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On the borderline between INFP and INTJ? Wow Fire, i think of those two types as being really quite different. Have you checked out your cognitive functions? There is a big gap imho between an intuitive feeler and a thinking intuitive.

My scores on the feeling-thinking and judging-perceiving continuums are so ambiguous it can go either way. I really have no strong preferences. I think because I can see both approaches at once most of the time. I'm a very intuitive kind of person, though.

My dad is an INTJ, definitely. He was an accountant.
 
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