Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

BCsenior · Apr 14, 2019

dad said:
Don't know what a bac is. However if we are saved, and sin too badly God takes us home. Salvation can't be lost.

After all this time, this still holds true ...
BAC = Born Again Christian

News Flash ... salvation can be lost, and you can be lost.
This is stated very plainly in many places in the NT.

BCsenior · Apr 14, 2019

Danthemailman said:
Romans 6:18 - And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

In Romans 6, Paul was saying ... spiritually they were
slaves of righteousness (v18) and slaves of God (v22),
BUT if they persisted in choosing to be slaves of sin,
they would receive eternal death (v16, v23).

1stcenturylady · Apr 14, 2019

dad said:
o 7:19 -For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

"For the good that I would, I do not…
The apostle here repeats what he had delivered in (Romans 7:15,16) to strengthen and confirm this part of his experience; that though he had a will to that which was good, yet he wanted power, and had none of himself to perform; and therefore often did what he would not, and what he would he did not."

Romans - Chapter 7 - Verse 19 - The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible on StudyLight.org

The context seems to be that he didn't do all the good he would like and sometimes did things he didn't like.

This is what I thought was hilarious, that you are seeming to say that this was Paul's current condition even AFTER Christ and having the Holy Spirit.

And now you post this below which I can agree to the scriptures, EXCEPT YOU DON'T KNOW WHY WE ARE DEAD TO THE LAW! Hilarious!!!

dad said:
It says we are dead to the law not that we keep it perfectly!

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

It goes on to say that the law was what showed us we had sin..(because we can't keep it)

We are dead to the old law.

Ro 7:4 -Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

It was not by keeping the law anyone was saved...ever.

Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

"No mere man, since the fall, is able in this life perfectly to keep the commandments of God, but does daily break them, in thought, word, and deed.

In many things we offend all.' James 3: 2. Man in his primitive state of innocence, was endowed with ability to keep the whole moral law. He had rectitude of mind, sanctity of will, and perfection of power. He had the copy of God's law written on his heart; no sooner did God command but he obeyed. As the key is suited to all the wards in the lock, and can open them, so Adam had a power suited to all God's commands, and could obey them. Adam's obedience ran parallel with the moral law, as a well made dial goes exactly with the sun. Man in innocence was like a well tuned organ, he was sweetly in tune to the will of God; he was adorned with holiness as the angels, but not confirmed in holiness as the angels. He was holy, but mutable; he fell from his purity, and we with him. Sin cut the lock of original righteousness where our strength lay; it brought a languor and faintness into our souls; and has so weakened us, that we shall never recover our full strength till we put on immortality. What I am now to demonstrate, is, that we cannot yield perfect obedience to the moral law.

I. The case of an unregenerate man is such, that he cannot perfectly obey all God's commands. He may as well touch the stars, or span the ocean, as yield exact obedience to the law. A person unregenerate cannot act spiritually, he cannot pray in the Holy Ghost, he cannot live by faith, he cannot do duty out of love to duty; and if he cannot do duty spiritually, much less perfectly. Now, that a natural man cannot yield perfect obedience to the moral law, is evident. (1) Because he is spiritually dead. Eph 2: 1. How can he, being dead, keep the commandments of God perfectly? A dead man is not fit for action. A sinner has the symptoms of death upon him. He has no sense; he has no sense of the evil of sin, of God's holiness and veracity; therefore he is said to be without feeling. Eph 4: 19. He has no strength. Rom 5: 6. What strength has a dead man? A natural man has no strength to deny himself, or to resist temptation; he is dead; and can a dead man fulfil the moral law? (2) A natural man cannot perfectly keep all God's commandments, because he is born in sin, and lives in sin. Psa 51: 5. He drinketh iniquity like water.' Job 15: 16. All the imaginations of his thoughts are evil, and only evil. Gen 6: 5. The least evil thought is a breach of the royal law; and if there be defection, there cannot be perfection. As a natural man has no power to keep the moral law, so he has no will. He is not only dead, but worse than dead. A dead man does no hurt, but there is a life of resistance against God that accompanies the death of sin. A natural man not only cannot keep the law through weakness, but he breaks it through wilfulness. We will do whatsoever goes out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven.' Jer 44: 17.

II. As the unregenerate cannot keep the moral law perfectly, so neither can the regenerate. There is not a just man upon earth, that does good and sinneth not;' nay, that sins not in doing good.' Eccl 7: 20. There is that in the best actions of a righteous man that is damnable, if God should weigh him in the balance of justice. Alas! how are his duties fly-blown! He cannot pray without wandering, nor believe without doubting. To will is present with me, but how to perform I find not.' In the Greek it is, How to do it thoroughly I find not.' Rom 7: 18. Paul, though a saint of the first magnitude, was better at willing than at performing. Mary asked where they had laid Christ; for she had a mind to have carried him away, but she wanted strength: so the regenerate have a will to obey God's law perfectly, but they want strength; their obedience is weak and sickly. The mark they are to shoot at, is perfection of holiness; but though they take a right aim, yet do what they can, they come short of the mark. The good that I would, I do not.' Rom 7: 19. A Christian, while serving God, like a ferry man that plies the oar, and rows hard, is hindered, for a gust of wind carries him back again: so says Paul, The good I would, I do not,' I am driven back by temptation. Now, if there be any failure in a man's obedience, he cannot be a perfect commentary upon God's law. The Virgin Mary's obedience was not perfect; she needed Christ's blood to wash her tears. Aaron was to make atonement for the altar, to show that the most holy offering has defilement in it, and needs atonement to be made for it. Exod 29: 37.

If a man has no power to keep the whole moral law, why does God require it of him? Is this justice?

Though man has lost his power of obeying, God has not lost his right of commanding. If a master entrusts a servant with money to lay out, and the servant spends it dissolutely, may not the master justly demand it? God gave us power to keep the moral law, which by tampering with sin, we lost; but may not God still call for perfect obedience, or, in case of default, justly punish us?

Why does God permit such an inability in man to keep the law?

He does it: (1) To humble us. Man is a self-exalting creature; and if he has but anything of worth, he is ready to be puffed up; but when he comes to see his deficiencies and failings, and how far short he comes of the holiness and perfection which God's law requires, it pulls down the plumes of his pride, and lays them in the dust; he weeps over his inability; he blushes over his leprous spots; he says with Job, I abhor myself in dust and ashes.' (2) God lets this inability be upon us, that we may have recourse to Christ to obtain pardon for our defects, and to sprinkle our best duties with his blood. When a man sees that he owes perfect obedience to the law, but has nothing to pay, it makes him flee to Christ to be his friend, and answer for him all the demands of the law, and set him free in the court of justice."
Man's Inability to Keep the Moral Law
propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Throw that commentary away!!! Don't you know the reason we are dead to the law, is because we are DEAD TO SIN, ITSELF!!!!! Romans 6:2. Therefore, if you don't sin, and it was the law that showed us our sin (that sin which is no longer committed) then we don't need the law to show us what we are no longer doing. Why aren't we sinning? THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Spirit kills sin in the flesh and frees us from being slaves to sin. What this guy is saying, is we are free from the law, so our sins don't matter because Christ paid the price. In other words, now Christ is the author of SIN! It is that false doctrine that Christ only frees us from the punishment of sins that we keep doing! Jude 1:4 calls that "turning the grace of God into licentiousness!"

Evidently you didn't read the context even after I showed you what it was.

Romans 8:1-9
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

The Spirit does not lead us to do sin. We are dead to sin. Anyone who still sins does not belong to Christ, because Christ frees us from even the desire to sin, the old nature called the carnal flesh.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free (from the ability to sin), you shall be free indeed.

1 John 3:5-10
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Galatians 5:
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

dad said:
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This is the verse you least understand. Grace is not a license to sin, turning the grace of God into licentiousness! What true grace is, is the POWER OF GOD to keep His laws written on our hearts. Paul is saying, if you add the outward elements of the old law to try to be righteous, like circumcision, then Christ is dead in vain. You don't need anything outward, except HIS SPIRIT. In order to not sin, the righteous requirements of the law are no longer engraved on stone, but on our heart, and now we are given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in order to perfectly KEEP THEM!!! That makes us dead to sin, and dead to the engraved laws which we no longer need.

dad · Apr 14, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Seeing as the New Covenant had to do with the indwelling of the Spirit, which was to replace the written law, what do you think? For the Apostles it started in John 20 when Jesus blew the Spirit into their mouths. Then Jesus had to return to heaven in order to send the Holy Spirit to the earth to officially start His Church. That was Pentecost.

Yes He had to return to heaven to be able to send His Spirit from heaven. Yes He had to return there so that one day He could return here as prophesied...etc.

Seems to me that the old testament people were saved by believing Jesus would come one day to die for us. Do you think they were saved by thinking the day of Pentecost would come?

dad · Apr 14, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
I'm finding stuff I never answered when my computer was being a stinker.

When you say 'hero' do you mean in the Old Testament?

No. Also the new one. Peter denied Him and fled. Thomas doubted. Paul and Barnabus seemed to quarrel a bit. The apostles feared before the day of Pentecost. Shaphira and hubby lusted after money and lied to God. Etc.

By the way, believer's wrongs are called sin in the new testament.

Mt 18:21 -Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

1Pe 4:8 - And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

And of course David and others sinned. Does that mean they were not saved?

Romans 3 explains what God did about their sins.

For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Yes sins from before were all forgiven when we got saved. The issue is whether we are sinless saints or not after that.

dad · Apr 14, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Do you know the context of that verse in Corinthians? It is not sin, my friend. It is ministry. Some preachers false doctrines will be burned, but they are still saved (if the core issues of the gospel are right and they are not "wolves in sheeps clothing").

Well, basically it is their life's work. If they have their works shown as stubble rather than gold, they are still saved, it is not by works. The context is salvation. 'yet shall they be saved..'

pasifika · Apr 14, 2019

BCsenior said:
After all this time, this still holds true ...
BAC = Born Again Christian

News Flash ... salvation can be lost, and you can be lost.
This is stated very plainly in many places in the NT.

Friend, this is what is like if our salvation is All depends on God and Not man...John 6:37-40.." ALL those the Father gives me WILL come to me, and whoever comes to me I will NEVER DRIVE AWAY..verse 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me. verse 39..AND THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME, that I shall LOSE NONE OF ALL THOSE HE HAS GIVEN ME, but RAISE THEM UP at the last day...

John 10:27-29.." My sheep listen to my voice, I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, NO ONE will snatch them out of my hand. verse 29..My Father who has given them to me, is GREATER THAN ALL, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE..

ONLY those the Father choses will be saved...as in Matthew 22:14 "Many are called but FEW ARE CHOSEN"

I am not saying my salvation is certain but what I'm trying to say that my salvation is All in God's hand...

I want to reply to Romans 5:16 " Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one you obey- whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death or obedience , which leads to Righteousness"..
Question 1, Did we offer ourselves First to sin or Righteousness? What did the scripture said? Romans 5:12 " Therefore, just as sin entered the world through the ONE Man (Adam) and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL PEOPLE because ALL SINNED..
This clearly state that we All first choose Evil, is the corrupted flesh we have from Adam to All people...
Jesus came and give us Understanding so we can then be able to Choose Righteousness which leads to eternal life..

dad · Apr 14, 2019

Danthemailman said:
Amen! Romans 6:18 - And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

And despite that the believers are not perfect. Apparently attaining sinless perfection is an ongoing battle no one will attain in this life!

1stcenturylady · Apr 14, 2019

dad said:
Yes He had to return to heaven to be able to send His Spirit from heaven. Yes He had to return there so that one day He could return here as prophesied...etc.

Seems to me that the old testament people were saved by believing Jesus would come one day to die for us. Do you think they were saved by thinking the day of Pentecost would come?

Probably not. They probably believed more in the second coming where Jesus would rule over their enemies. I don't think they understood the "suffering servant" aspect. But they did believe in the resurrection of the dead.

1stcenturylady · Apr 14, 2019

dad said:
No. Also the new one. Peter denied Him and fled. Thomas doubted. Paul and Barnabus seemed to quarrel a bit. The apostles feared before the day of Pentecost. Shaphira and hubby lusted after money and lied to God. Etc.

You do understand don't you the difference between before the Holy Spirit, and after? Peter still had his carnal flesh, and so did Thomas. They would only receive the power of grace, the Holy Spirit after Jesus died and the Spirit filled them.

Paul and Barnabas quarreling is not a sin. Paul thought Mark was too immature to give him another chance, and Barnabas said he would take him with him then. Case closed. Scripture says, be angry and sin not, and do not let the sun go down on your wrath." Ephesians 4:26. Ananias and Saphira quenched the Spirit and lied, damning themselves. You CAN lose your salvation. I know you don't believe that yet, but I hope you throw away that commentary. This is why it is a command to not quench the Spirit, and not to even grieve the Holy Spirit, as that can be a slippery slope back to eating your own vomit.

You have sought out, or been raised in a denomination that says we still sin, and Jesus has just taken our punishment, instead of the truth that Jesus makes us born again of the Spirit of Christ, causing us to be DEAD TO SIN, so no need for the law.

You really need to study 2 Peter 2 about false teachers that say it is okay with God if you sin and fulfill the lust of the flesh, because they are covered and can no longer separate you from God, like Martin Luther and his belief in making your sins strong...that not even if you were to murder and commit adultery 1000 times a day, they couldn't separate you from God. Read what Peter has to say about that.

12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

dad said:
By the way, believer's wrongs are called sin in the new testament.

Mt 18:21 -Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

1Pe 4:8 - And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

There are two kinds of sins: lawlessness and trespasses. 1 John 5:16-17 shows us that one is a sin unto death, and the other is NOT a sin unto death. Do you know the difference?

Lawlessness is against God's laws. They are deliberate and in rebellion against what you know to be right. They are WILLFUL sins.

Trespasses as Leviticus 5:15 says are unintentional, and therefore NOT WILLFUL sins.

The Lord's prayer we are to forgive trespasses against each other. That is what Matthew 18:21 is referring to. It is not referring to lawlessness.

Both are called sin, but clearly to God there is a difference.

dad said:
And of course David and others sinned. Does that mean they were not saved?

David repented, but there was still blood that was shed - his baby. Yes, David was saved.

1stcenturylady · Apr 14, 2019

dad said:
Yes sins from before were all forgiven when we got saved. The issue is whether we are sinless saints or not after that.

We can be. The doctrine of adding "present and future" to the sins that are forgiven when we come to Christ is a diabolical error, and will cause many to indulge in sins they believe are already forgiven. No! It is only our past sins that are forgiven, and then we are given the Holy Spirit to prevent us from sinning lawlessly in the present and future.

2 Peter 1:9 "For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

If we forgive others their unintentional trespasses against us, ours will automatically be forgiven. While we walk in the Spirit, we will not commit sins unto death, but the blood of Jesus cleanses us for all the sins (trespasses) that are not unto death.

It is the fruit of the Spirit that we need to grow in, and the longer we abide in the Lord, the more mature our fruit will become. But John 15 also says, if someone has no fruit at all, they will be lopped off - not OSAS.

1stcenturylady · Apr 14, 2019

dad said:
Well, basically it is their life's work. If they have their works shown as stubble rather than gold, they are still saved, it is not by works. The context is salvation. 'yet shall they be saved..'

Correct. But not to be confused with willful sin. No one committing willful sin will still be saved.

The "not by works" is correct, meaning it is not the works we do while still having our carnal flesh. That is the struggle of the person in Romans 7. They are still in their sinful flesh that loves to sin, thus the push and pull struggle. That nature has to be killed because it can never please God. It is the works that the Spirit does THROUGH us, that keep us saved as they are fruit of the Spirit. Without fruit we will be lopped off.

1stcenturylady · Apr 14, 2019

dad said:
And despite that the believers are not perfect. Apparently attaining sinless perfection is an ongoing battle no one will attain in this life!

Do you believe Jesus is that puny that He will not finish the work He begins in us in this lifetime. What a slap in the face to Jesus. He gives you His own POWER called grace to overcome, and you don't believe it is enough. The puny definition of unmerited favor by false teachers will cause many to say Lord, Lord, but Jesus will say to them, " ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

BCsenior · Apr 14, 2019

pasifika said:
John 6:37-40.." verse 37 ALL those the Father gives me WILL come to me, and whoever comes to me I will NEVER DRIVE AWAY..
verse 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me.
verse 39..AND THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME, that I shall LOSE NONE OF ALL THOSE HE HAS GIVEN ME, but RAISE THEM UP at the last day...

verse 37 ... God will never drive them away,
but a person has free will to fall away!
verse 39 ... Who knows who the ones are that
Father God has given Jesus? Remember amongst
Jesus' followers are sheep & goats, wheat & tares,
righteous & unrighteous, wise & foolish virgins, etc.

dad · Apr 14, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Probably not. They probably believed more in the second coming where Jesus would rule over their enemies. I don't think they understood the "suffering servant" aspect. But they did believe in the resurrection of the dead.

The suffering ended at the cross, not Pentecost.

dad · Apr 14, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
We can be. The doctrine of adding "present and future" to the sins that are forgiven when we come to Christ is a diabolical error, and will cause many to indulge in sins they believe are already forgiven. No! It is only our past sins that are forgiven, and then we are given the Holy Spirit to prevent us from sinning lawlessly in the present and future.

If we did not get forgiven for sins or bad things after being saved also, we would not be under mercy but the law and death.

2 Peter 1:9 "For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Of course we were forgiven from old sins. We had to be to get saved.

If we forgive others their unintentional trespasses against us, ours will automatically be forgiven.

I think you inserted the word intentional there. The bible just says forgive.

While we walk in the Spirit, we will not commit sins unto death, but the blood of Jesus cleanses us for all the sins (trespasses) that are not unto death.

There is no death for those who get saved. The only 'death' is going to sleep as Jesus put it. If some sin too badly God will put them to sleep early.

It is the fruit of the Spirit that we need to grow in,

The fruit of something means the results. The works we do through the Spirit after being saved are a result of being connected to His life. They are a result of growing in the spirit.

and the longer we abide in the Lord, the more mature our fruit will become. But John 15 also says, if someone has no fruit at all, they will be lopped off - not OSAS.

If that someone is saved, they will only be cut off from the life in the world here.

dad · Apr 14, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Correct. But not to be confused with willful sin. No one committing willful sin will still be saved.

If they are already saved and do bad things, they will be judged for it, and it could even mean God takes our life here. It does not mean anyone loses eternal salvation. Context.

The "not by works" is correct, meaning it is not the works we do while still having our carnal flesh. That is the struggle of the person in Romans 7. They are still in their sinful flesh that loves to sin, thus the push and pull struggle. That nature has to be killed because it can never please God. It is the works that the Spirit does THROUGH us, that keep us saved as they are fruit of the Spirit. Without fruit we will be lopped off.

Not in this life will the old man completely die it seems.

dad · Apr 14, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Do you believe Jesus is that puny that He will not finish the work He begins in us in this lifetime. What a slap in the face to Jesus.

Name me anyone that is perfect right now?? You kidding? What an insult to pretend anyone is or should be in this life. Not even Paul counted himself to have attained. Look around where are the perfect people you imagine exist somehow somewhere? The pope? I think not. Trump? Ha. Clinton? Hahahaha. So...where are they, in hiding?

He gives you His own POWER called grace to overcome, and you don't believe it is enough.

Enough for what?? To be a sinless perfect saint? No. Of course not. Anyone pretending they are is pulling your leg.
Salvation is not about being a wunderbar perfect sinless person in this life. (or pretending you are)

The puny definition of unmerited favor by false teachers will cause many to say Lord, Lord, but Jesus will say to them, " ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

ALL salvation is totally unmerited! It is the gift of Jesus. Just because some saved folks don't pretend they are sinless in a hypocritical act does not mean that they practice lawlessness.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 14, 2019

dad said:
Well, basically it is their life's work. If they have their works shown as stubble rather than gold, they are still saved, it is not by works. The context is salvation. 'yet shall they be saved..'

Stubble and hay is not sin but it is the quality of one's GOOD works.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 14, 2019

dad said:
Name me anyone that is perfect right now?? You kidding? What an insult to pretend anyone is or should be in this life. Not even Paul counted himself to have attained. Look around where are the perfect people you imagine exist somehow somewhere? The pope? I think not. Trump? Ha. Clinton? Hahahaha. So...where are they, in hiding?

Enough for what?? To be a sinless perfect saint? No. Of course not. Anyone pretending they are is pulling your leg.
Salvation is not about being a wunderbar perfect sinless person in this life. (or pretending you are)

ALL salvation is totally unmerited! It is the gift of Jesus. Just because some saved folks don't pretend they are sinless in a hypocritical act does not mean that they practice lawlessness.

The Jews thought they had the way to God. But Jesus taught them that this was not so. In other words, the popular way or wide gate path is not going to be something that you have been taught from the majority of popular preachers and teachers out there. But if you were to just get alone with God and His Word for a while and just believe EVERYTHING that it says without trying to change the Bible, you will truly start to see a whole another side of the BIble that you did not see before. Jesus said narrow is the way. Most today justify a sin and still be saved type belief. As if I have to say that is wrong is strange. But I do because folks obviously are not regarding true morality in their Soteriology model.

You cannot look to what others are doing. We walk by faith and not by sight. You cannot go off your feelings over the Word of God, either. For the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked.

Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

Still an evangelist

Still an evangelist

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Well-Known Member

Undefeated!

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Still an evangelist

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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