Is abstaining from sin worth anything if done for the wrong reasons?

Mary Meg said:

But you're talking about merit, not whether something is sinful or not. Why would doing something good with an imperfect motive be against God's will?

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Sin is anything not done in faith and faith works by love.

Mary Meg said:

I don't understand this. Why is abstaining from sin for the wrong reasons also sin?
Isn't sin deliberately doing something against God's will? And isn't it God's will that we not engage in these behaviors? So if we're deliberately NOT engaging in these behaviors, for whatever reason, aren't we in some sense obeying God?

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To not sin for sinful reasons is really just.to replace one sin with another.

Dave L said:

Sin is anything not done in faith and faith works by love.

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I’ve met too many people who’ve taken that into self hatred. This could be twisted into toxic behavior

Dave L said:

Sin is anything not done in faith and faith works by love.

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So, it's against God's will to do for an unbeliever to intentionally do what God commands? Really?

Mary Meg said:

So, it's against God's will to do for an unbeliever to intentionally do what God commands? Really?

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The Pharisees thought they were good for not stealing when they wanted to. Good people don't want to steal.

Dave L said:

The Pharisees thought they were good for not stealing when they wanted to. Good people don't want to steal.

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so they were doing the good thing even though they wanted to do the bad thing . Actual good vs imaginary harm. This still sounds illogical and frankly, crazy to me ! I remember going into a bank with my mom as a child, and wondering how to rob . Not actually planning to rob the bank just thinking of it as a puzzle to solve . Caper movies do the same thing. The only thing I ever figured out is that robbing a bank was a stupid thing to do.

Ttalkkugjil said:

To not sin for sinful reasons is really just.to replace one sin with another.

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It's a sinful reason to want to please another person?

Dave L said:

The Pharisees thought they were good for not stealing when they wanted to. Good people don't want to steal.

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So the Pharisees not stealing, that was in itself sinful? I always the Pharisees sinned because they were prideful hypocrites, and because they kept the letter of the law while disobeying its spirit — like keeping things for God's use that should have honored their father and mother (Matthew 15).

Mary Meg said:

It's a sinful reason to want to please another person?

So the Pharisees not stealing, that was in itself sinful? I always the Pharisees sinned because they were prideful hypocrites, and because they kept the letter of the law while disobeying its spirit — like keeping things for God's use that should have honored their father and mother (Matthew 15).

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The Pharisees sinned for all of the reasons you assumed were true about them. Jesus said we sin in thought and not necessarily in the outward act alone.

Brightmoon said:

so they were doing the good thing even though they wanted to do the bad thing . Actual good vs imaginary harm. This still sounds illogical and frankly, crazy to me ! I remember going into a bank with my mom as a child, and wondering how to rob . Not actually planning to rob the bank just thinking of it as a puzzle to solve . Caper movies do the same thing. The only thing I ever figured out is that robbing a bank was a stupid thing to do.

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Jesus says we can sin in thought even though not outwardly.

Dave L said:

Jesus says we can sin in thought even though not outwardly.

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. And this is how this devolves into self hatred

Brightmoon said:

. And this is how this devolves into self hatred

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Paul loathed himself............

Lucian Hodoboc said:

That's just absurd, considering that some of us can't control our thoughts. Look up "obsessive-compulsive disorder".

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Paul says if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Mary Meg said:

It's a sinful reason to want to please another person?

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It certainly can be. We're not called to be people-pleasers but rather God-pleasers. We are to serve for God's good pleasure.

Lucian Hodoboc said:

That's just absurd, considering that some of us can't control our thoughts. Look up "obsessive-compulsive disorder".

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More accurate to say, some of us can't control some of our thoughts.

Ttalkkugjil said:

It certainly can be. We're not called to be people-pleasers but rather God-pleasers. We are to serve for God's good pleasure.

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Yes, I can think of situations where aiming to please another person could be sinful — but that's if what you're doing is sinful. But I don't know why it would be a "sinful intention" in itself to do something to please another person. Don't children do things all the time to please their parents? Or students to please their teachers? Are such actions automatically sinful because they're not done directly for "God's good pleasure"?

Dave L said:

Paul says if we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

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Yes. By walking in the Spirit, we bear the fruits of the Spirit and avoid falling into sin. But is intentionally avoiding the lusts of the flesh, the same thing as engaging in them, just because we're not actually walking in the Spirit?

Lucian Hodoboc said:

Is abstaining from sin worth anything if it is done for the wrong reasons?

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I would say that refraining from many sins for whatever reason you do it can and often does have great value in this life.

But there is a reason that one may have for abstaining from sin that in and of itself is sin. We often see it exhibited here in the forum.

That reason is to rate salvation. I.e. - either to get saved or stay saved in the most basic sense of the word (e.g. go to Heaven when you die and not go to Hell).

It is quite possible to live an exemplary and powerful "Christian" life in every way you can and still be found wanting when you meet the Lord face to face on the other side of this life.

He won't say "I never knew you" to anyone because they hadn't overcome enough sin while in the flesh to rate the salvation that is in the Lord. He will say it to those who have relied on their refraining from sin in this life in order to rate obtaining salvation or to keep from losing the salvation they thought they had.

The latter group had believed another gospel than the gospel of grace - which, according to God's Word, is no gospel at all - even though it makes perfect sense to the self righteous among us here in the forum.

"There is a way which seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death." Proverbs 14:12

Mary Meg said:

Yes, I can think of situations where aiming to please another person could be sinful — but that's if what you're doing is sinful. But I don't know why it would be a "sinful intention" in itself to do something to please another person. Don't children do things all the time to please their parents? Or students to please their teachers? Are such actions automatically sinful because they're not done directly for "God's good pleasure"?


Yes. By walking in the Spirit, we bear the fruits of the Spirit and avoid falling into sin. But is intentionally avoiding the lusts of the flesh, the same thing as engaging in them, just because we're not actually walking in the Spirit?

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Jesus said that looking on a woman to lust after her was adultery.