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Seal 6 begins judgment - what the martyrs were crying for. The church has been between the 5th and 6th seals all this time. Paul's rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be Paul's "sudden destruction." And Paul said that we will have no appointments with His wrath; "they" get the sudden destruction, while those in Christ get raptured. Paul hints strongly here that the sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath. That fits with what John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come."

Those in the 5th seal are not just any believers. They are the believers who were martyred by the Beast for not taking the mark and worshiping him. Many of them will be beheaded.

Yet, the beast's scope of power or reach is limited. He will not be able to kill ALL Christians everywhere. There is going to be a resistance cell of believers who are hiding out in secret places and or possibly tunnels that the beast does not know about. This last remaining group of believers who have managed to escape the beast's onslaught will be taken away or gathered up by angels before God will release His wrath upon the world.

Daniel's prophecy forces us to place the cessation of the temple sacrifices at the midpoint of the last week. This is confirmed by even Revelation with it telling us how many more days the Gentiles will trodden down the temple city for the exact numbers of days that equals 3 and a half years (i.e. 1,260 biblical days or 42 months). We know that many are going to die at the enforcement of the Mark. This lines up with DEATH (the 4th seal). 5th seal are the recently martyred saints. 6th seal is God's response. But the real action... the real judgment does not begin until the 1st trumpet. This is wrath. The unbelievers who say that His wrath has come are merely saying that the time has arrived where the Wrath will soon come upon them. The great day of His Wrath is a time period and not a 24 hour day. What we see in Revelation with Christ showing himself is the sign of the Son of Man in the Olivet discourse. His showing himself includes his coming... but it is for the rest of his body of believers first and it is not quite yet to destroy the wicked. That comes later at the 6th bowl judgment. All the seals have to correspond to something else.

Believers are not appointed unto wrath.
Jesus showing himself sitting on the throne is what triggers the unbelievers to say that His day of wrath has arrived. But the Olivet discourse says that they will see the glory of the Son and man and they will see Him coming. But the Olivet discourse does not say that he is coming to destroy them. It merely says He is coming. The Olivet discourse focuses on the disappearance of believers shortly after the time of the Middle of the tribulation or the reveal of the Abomination of Desolations (Which is the cessation of the Jewish temple sacrifices). The signs..... the sun going dark, the moon turning blood red is BEFORE the day of wrath according to Scripture. YET.... the 6th seal includes these signs AND Jesus being seen in Heaven. So the 6th seal cannot be the start of the wrath because:

(a) Believers are not appointed unto wrath.
(b) The signs of the 6th seal are BEFORE the day of wrath or the Day of the Lord.
 
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This theory is FAR from Christian norm, and I disagree. First, Jesus was not mixed up on timing. The elect are gathered (note: from all of earth and all of heaven) AFTER the "tribulation" "of those days" has finished. How then could ANYONE imagine it is midtrib? Just so you know, it is the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint of the week.

This gathering in the Olivet Discourse is without any doubt God gathering all the descendants of Jacob back to Israel as He promised them. It has NOTHING to do with Paul's rapture or any other rapture.

Indeed, in Rev. 19 HE IS COMING to destroy the wicked - that is exactly what the battle of Armageddon is about.

In the Olivet discourse, that says in Matthew 24, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29) it is picking up after verse 21 that talks about the "Great Tribulation" that will come upon the world after they see the tribulation days from the kick off event of the "Abomination of Desolations" and the Jews being told to run for the hills (Verses 15-21). So immediately after the Great Tribulation of those days (i.e. the enforcement of the mark of the beast after his "Abomination of Desolation" statue set up in the Jewish temple to force people to worship his image and take his mark), we are told: "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" and they will see the sign of the Son of Man (i.e. He will be seen sitting upon the throne up in Heaven). The wicked will then see Jesus coming. But it will be for the remaining surviving elect who were hiding out from the Beast's onslaught. They will be gathered from the four corners of the earth and heaven (the sky - possibly by plane or high in the mountains). Then the Wrath comes. Then the really bad stuff happens as a reply or answer to the saints in being martyred in the 5th seal. But God's people are not appointed unto wrath. So any remaining believers will be taken up and spared from God's judgment. They will also be prepared for the End Times battle to follow Christ into battle, too.
 
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"The Tribulation" or the 70th week of Daniel will begin at the 7th seal, NOT THE FIRST SEAL.

In Mat. 24 Jesus said, "the end is not yet" showing us the beginning of sorrows is the church age. In Revelation John shows us very clearly that the first seals were opened around 32 AD when Jesus ascended. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

Seals 2-4 are the Red Horse and rider, the Black horse and rider, and the Pale horse and rider who all ride together. They are to represent the devil's attempts to STOP THE GOSPEL. However, God limited their theater of operation to only one fourth of the earth.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age.

Seal 6 begins judgment - what the martyrs were crying for. The church has been between the 5th and 6th seals all this time. Paul's rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal. The earthquake at the 6th seal will be Paul's "sudden destruction." And Paul said that we will have no appointments with His wrath; "they" get the sudden destruction, while those in Christ get raptured. Paul hints strongly here that the sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath. That fits with what John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come."

No event in history has happened with the the breaking of the 3rd or 4th seal. There was no great time of famine (3rd seal) after Jesus's time, or a time in history (after Christ) where a 4th of the world were killed. Also, Jesus is never described as having a bow in his hand. Esau is said to have a bow (in Scripture) and he sold his birthright. Nimrod was said to be a great hunter in Genesis 10 to the leading up to the event at the Tower Babel. Babylon is a key piece in the final end game within Revelation. Babylon are the bad guys and not the good guys.
 
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Douggg

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"The Tribulation" or the 70th week of Daniel will begin at the 7th seal, NOT THE FIRST SEAL.
The 70th week begins with the first seal rider on the white the horse, given a crown...anointed the King of Israel, the Antichrist. The Antichrist confirms the covenant with many for 7 years - and the 70th week starts.

The seventh seal begins in the middle part of the years, the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel having become Christians. They are sealed before the trumpet judgments begin. i.e. don't do hurt to the earth, nor the sea, nor to any tree.

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
________________________________________________________________________________

The seven years are the seven years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39. The Jews at the start of the seven years will think the Antichrist is their messiah, and the false prophet anoints him the King of Israel.

When the Antichrist reveals himself as the man of sin in the middle of the seven years, the Jews realize their mistake and turn to Jesus and become Christians for the remainder of the seven years.

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the house of Israel back to Israel and corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
 
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iamlamad

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No event in history has happened with the the breaking of the 3rd or 4th seal. There was no great time of famine (3rd seal) after Jesus's time, or a time in history (after Christ) where a 4th of the world were killed. Also, Jesus is never described as having a bow in his hand. Esau is said to have a bow (in Scripture) and he sold his birthright. Nimrod was said to be a great hunter in Genesis 10 to the leading up to the event at the Tower Babel. Babylon is a key piece in the final end game within Revelation. Babylon are the bad guys and not the good guys.
There have been famines and pestilences and earthquakes in that 1/4 of the earth throughout the last 2000 years, exactly as John portrayed it.

Where do you get 1/4 of the world killed? That is not what is written. No one we disagree. Go and read it again: God LIMITED those riders to one fourth of the earth. No one knows how many have died over the years with pestilences alone. Twice the black plague hit Europe, killing about 1/3 both times.

The point is, these things are history. John SETS THE TIME of the first seals in chapter 5. It is the time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Don't take my word for it, go and read it! You cannot find 2000 years in any of those verses after He ascended and sent the Spirit down. It is not there. Jesus opened the first seals around 32 AD. Don't try to change what is written to fit some theory! Ditch the theory and start over taking Revelation as written.

Who ever said Jesus had a bow? The white horse and rider are to represent THE CHURCH and the GOSPEL. the church had to conquer to spread the gospel. Satan is the god of this world, and he certainly did not just step aside. Christians DIED spreading the gospel. Demonic principalities had to be conquered - and they were. Our weapons are not physical weapons, like arrows; our weapons are spiritual.
As you can see, I disagree.
 
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iamlamad

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The 70th week begins with the first seal rider on the white the horse, given a crown...anointed the King of Israel, the Antichrist. The Antichrist confirms the covenant with many for 7 years - and the 70th week starts.

The seventh seal begins in the middle part of the years, the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel having become Christians. They are sealed before the trumpet judgments begin. i.e. don't do hurt to the earth, nor the sea, nor to any tree.

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
________________________________________________________________________________

The seven years are the seven years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39. The Jews at the start of the seven years will think the Antichrist is their messiah, and the false prophet anoints him the King of Israel.

When the Antichrist reveals himself as the man of sin in the middle of the seven years, the Jews realize their mistake and turn to Jesus and become Christians for the remainder of the seven years.

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the house of Israel back to Israel and corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28, Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
We have been over this before. You are simply mistaken. Go back and read chapter 5 again. John gives us the timing of the first seals. The problem is, you don't believe John. He shows us Jesus ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down. Sorry, friend, but that happened around 32 AD and sets the timing of the first seals.
 
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Douggg

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We have been over this before. You are simply mistaken. Go back and read chapter 5 again. John gives us the timing of the first seals. The problem is, you don't believe John. He shows us Jesus ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down. Sorry, friend, but that happened around 32 AD and sets the timing of the first seals.
What does chapter 5 have to do with not harming the earth, the sea, and the trees in Revelation 7:1 until after the 144,000 have been sealed?

The harming of the earth, the sea, and trees takes part in the second half of the seven years. After the person has become the beast. He rules as the beast 42 months, the second half of the seven years.

What does chapter 5 have to do with that?
 
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iamlamad

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In the Olivet discourse, that says in Matthew 24, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29) it is picking up after verse 21 that talks about the "Great Tribulation" that will come upon the world after they see the tribulation days from the kick off event of the "Abomination of Desolations" and the Jews being told to run for the hills (Verses 15-21). So immediately after the Great Tribulation of those days (i.e. the enforcement of the mark of the beast after his "Abomination of Desolation" statue set up in the Jewish temple to force people to worship his image and take his mark), we are told: "shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" and they will see the sign of the Son of Man (i.e. He will be seen sitting upon the throne up in Heaven). The wicked will then see Jesus coming. But it will be for the remaining surviving elect who were hiding out from the Beast's onslaught. They will be gathered from the four corners of the earth and heaven (the sky - possibly by plane or high in the mountains). Then the Wrath comes. Then the really bad stuff happens as a reply or answer to the saints in being martyred in the 5th seal. But God's people are not appointed unto wrath. So any remaining believers will be taken up and spared from God's judgment. They will also be prepared for the End Times battle to follow Christ into battle, too.
Then the Wrath comes. Why not just believe John instead of coming up with some wild theory? John TELLS us what happens. Your timing of His wrath is 7 years off. His wrath begins right when John tells us it does, or VERY shortly after. You can choose the 6th seal, or the 7th or even the first trumpet judgment - but not any later. Every trumpet is a judgment that comes with God's wrath. It is the DAY of his wrath. Don't take my word for it, just believe John.

What REALLY happens after the days of GT? Jesus tells us HE COMES. But Revelation gives us a clearer picture. The days of GT begin after the warning not to take the mark in chapter 14. The Mark is established, the Image is created, and people are then forced under threat of losing their head, to take the mark and worship the image. Rev. 15 shows us the beheaded beginning to arrive in heaven.

God lets the murdering reach its peak, and then begins to SHORTEN those days by pouring out the vials of His wrath. Soon after, the armies of the Beast are rendered helpless. God sends darkness upon the earth. finally the 1260th day comes (starting from the midpoint 7th trumpet) and the 7th vial is poured out to end the week. A HUGE HUGE earthquake takes place, as God raised the Old Testament saints. They are resurrected just in time for the marriage and supper.

Then John shows us in chapters 17 and 18, the complete destruction of the great city of Jerusalem (Babylon the great.) Finally Babylon is destroyed, but armies of the world descend on Israel to wipe her off the map. While they are attacking what is left of Jerusalem, the marriage and supper ends, and the armies of heaven follow Jesus on white horse - to the battle of Armageddon. AS He descends, angels are sent out to gather of if Israel back to Israel, from the uttermost parts of earth to the uttermost parts of heaven.

By the time they arrive in Israel, the battle will be over.

I suspect while angels are sent out to gather Israel, other angels are sent out to perform the parable of the tares: all lawless people will be taken. I am only guessing because I cannot find any place where we can know for sure when this happens.

immediately after the Great Tribulation of those days Yes, AFTER means the week has ended.

they will see the sign of the Son of Man No, not seated in heaven; coming to earth! The "sign" will be as lightning flashing across the dark sky. "...they shall see the Son of man coming... "

it will be for the remaining surviving elect Here we may agree in part. Yes, Jesus CERTAINLY will rescue the believing saints: some will escape in the new valley created. Those who fled, probably to Petra, will be rescued. But the armies who have attacked will be destroyed.

Then the really bad stuff happens as a reply or answer to the saints in being martyred in the 5th seal. No, the 5th seal is the church age martyrs. John does not get to "the end" until the 6th seal. Jesus does not get to "the end" in Mat. 24 until verses 13 & 14. The "really bad stuff" begins after God gives the warning in chapter 14. Those are the really bad days of GT - during chapter 15.

You are I disagree on almost everything!
 
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iamlamad

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Those in the 5th seal are not just any believers. They are the believers who were martyred by the Beast for not taking the mark and worshiping him. Many of them will be beheaded.

Yet, the beast's scope of power or reach is limited. He will not be able to kill ALL Christians everywhere. There is going to be a resistance cell of believers who are hiding out in secret places and or possibly tunnels that the beast does not know about. This last remaining group of believers who have managed to escape the beast's onslaught will be taken away or gathered up by angels before God will release His wrath upon the world.

Daniel's prophecy forces us to place the cessation of the temple sacrifices at the midpoint of the last week. This is confirmed by even Revelation with it telling us how many more days the Gentiles will trodden down the temple city for the exact numbers of days that equals 3 and a half years (i.e. 1,260 biblical days or 42 months). We know that many are going to die at the enforcement of the Mark. This lines up with DEATH (the 4th seal). 5th seal are the recently martyred saints. 6th seal is God's response. But the real action... the real judgment does not begin until the 1st trumpet. This is wrath. The unbelievers who say that His wrath has come are merely saying that the time has arrived where the Wrath will soon come upon them. The great day of His Wrath is a time period and not a 24 hour day. What we see in Revelation with Christ showing himself is the sign of the Son of Man in the Olivet discourse. His showing himself includes his coming... but it is for the rest of his body of believers first and it is not quite yet to destroy the wicked. That comes later at the 6th bowl judgment. All the seals have to correspond to something else.

Believers are not appointed unto wrath.
Jesus showing himself sitting on the throne is what triggers the unbelievers to say that His day of wrath has arrived. But the Olivet discourse says that they will see the glory of the Son and man and they will see Him coming. But the Olivet discourse does not say that he is coming to destroy them. It merely says He is coming. The Olivet discourse focuses on the disappearance of believers shortly after the time of the Middle of the tribulation or the reveal of the Abomination of Desolations (Which is the cessation of the Jewish temple sacrifices). The signs..... the sun going dark, the moon turning blood red is BEFORE the day of wrath according to Scripture. YET.... the 6th seal includes these signs AND Jesus being seen in Heaven. So the 6th seal cannot be the start of the wrath because:

(a) Believers are not appointed unto wrath.
(b) The signs of the 6th seal are BEFORE the day of wrath or the Day of the Lord.

Sorry, but your timing is miles off from the truth. Seal one (1) was opened in 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended. John TELLS US this - but most people are in disbelief. They just can't believe the words John wrote. Seals 2 through 5 were opened very shortly after seal 1. The martyrs of the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE!

John does not even open the week until the 7th seal, and does not arrive at the midpoint until the 7th trumpet. Seal 5 is CHURCH AGE. The church has been waiting for the final martyr. What comes next? The judgment the martyrs were crying for: seal 6.

The church has been between seals 5 & 6 all this time. Believe it for it is truth.

The signs of the 6th seal are BEFORE the day of wrath or the Day of the Lord. OK, if you insist: so His wrath begins in the first verse if chapter 7. That is "after" and makes the signs "before."

The rapture will come just before the earthquake of the 6th seal. Don't doubt me on this: go and read 1 Thes. 5. Those living in Christ get salvation - they get raptured, while those living in the darkness get left behind - to the sudden destruction earthquake.

It is NO MISTAKE John then SAW the raptured church in heaven in the very next chapter.

There is going to be a resistance cell of believers who are hiding out in secret places and or possibly tunnels that the beast does not know about.
This SOUNDS nice, but it is not scripture. The ONLY scripture for this time and place is that the saints will be OVERCOME. The only exception in scripture are those in Judea who flee. There IS no scripture for the Gentile church fleeing.

There IS scripture where God will gather Israel. I cannot find a scripture where God gathers the Gentile church except at the rapture of the church.

Agreed: there are 5 mentions of the last half of the week found in chapters 11 - 13. The midpoint MUST be in these chapters. In fact, it is in chapter 11. Each mention of the 3.5 year period of time is a COUNTDOWN to the end. However, the beginning points are staggered with the 42 months of authority starting last.

We know that many are going to die at the enforcement of the Mark. This lines up with DEATH (the 4th seal). 5th seal are the recently martyred saints.
No. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th seals are CHURCH AGE. The 5th seal are the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was in that group. Your timing is WAY off. You are pulling things out of their context. The context of the first seal is when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

6th seal is God's response. The 6th seal is after the rapture that ends the age of Grace - so in a way you are right: it is now TIME for Judgement and it will begin with the start of the Day of His wrath.

the real judgment does not begin until the 1st trumpet. This is wrath. Finally! Something I can agree with - almost. I won't disagree with His wrath beginning with the first trumpet judgment. I personally think it begins with the earthquake. In other words, that earthquake comes with God's wrath, but He can't start THE DAY of His wrath until after the signs in the sun and moon. It goes back to Paul: he likes the earthquake sudden destruction with God's wrath: what "WE" have no appointments with, but "they" do.

I hope you know, John does not really write that they actually SAW either God or the Son. Perhaps they are only imagining His face. He is still in heaven at this point. It is right after the rapture and before the 70th week will begin.

PLEASE tell me you are not equating the signs in the sun and moon in Matthew 24 with the signs at the 6th seal? It seems you ARE. Maybe I am mistaken.
 
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iamlamad

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You can see the Marriage Supper of the Lamb placed at the start of the 2nd Coming in my chronology. I don't mention the Marriage supper until the body of believers is called to the fight.

Here is part of my chronology that talks about it:

The Second Coming of Christ:
(The Lord Appears in the Clouds Coming in Great Power & Glory):

Revelation 16:15

The Sixth Vial (Part 3):

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."​

Revelation 1:7 NIV

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.​

Matthew 24:27

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.​

Luke 17:24

For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.​

Isaiah 26:21a NLT

Look! The LORD is coming from heaven to punish the people of the earth for their sins.​

Psalm 96:13 NKJV

For He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness​

Revelation 19:11-13 and Revelation 19:15-16

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.​

1 Timothy 6:14 NLT and 1 Timothy 6:15 NKJV

Our Lord Jesus Christ comes again...
He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.​

Certain Saints in Heaven Are Made Ready For The Marriage Supper of The Lamb:


Revelation 19:6-8 HCS and Revelation 19:9 NIV

Then I heard something like the voice of a vast multitude, like the sound of cascading waters, and like the rumbling of loud thunder, saying:

"Hallelujah, because our Lord God, the Almighty, has begun to reign! Let us be glad, rejoice, and give Him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself. She was given fine linen to wear, bright and pure. For the fine linen represents the righteous acts of the saints."

Then the angel said to me,

Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’”​

The Lord Gathers His Elect For the Upcoming Battle:
(The Call to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb):

Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:14

And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying

"To all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Isaiah 40:31

But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
Luke 17:37

Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Matthew 24:28

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.​

Jude 1:14

Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,​

Isaiah 31:4 NLT

The LORD of Heaven’s Armies will come down​

Isaiah 26:21b NLT

The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed. They will be brought out for all to see.
The battle of our Lord or the Marriage supper itself can be seen in post #8.
First, I like the way you brought all those "coming: verses together.

The Lord Gathers His Elect For the Upcoming Battle:
(The Call to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb):

Sorry, but this is simply wrong.
Stop rearranging what John wrote! The marriage and supper will take place IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. Therefore AFTER the wedding supper He will descend to the battle of Armageddon.

Your theory is kind of sick: the REAL marriage supper will be in heaven after the marriage, and it will be tables as far as the eye can see along the river of life. It will be the saints feasting on GOOD THINGS TO EAT.

Yes, the vultures will feast, and the buzzards, that is true. But this feast has NOTHING TO DO with the marriage feast in heaven. Throw that sick thought into the trash!
 
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iamlamad

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I don't want to endlessly debate. But ALL these things we shall escape if we pray is from Luke 17 and not Matthew 24.

You can line up what Jesus says in Luke 17 with what happens in Revelation.

As for Abraham's Bosom: Many people (I am not implying you or anything) think from a selfish "ME" perspective (when reading the Bible). For they do not like the idea of going to some sub Heaven like Abraham's Bosom. For some beleivers use the verse in Ephesians out of context from how the Bible uses the phrase "lead captivity captive." It's an OT phrase that has nothing to do with the rescue of believers.

Also, where are the dead in Christ rising from? Do they go from Heaven down into the grave to then rise again? That makes no sense. The passage on the Rapture talks about how the dead in Christ will RISE first. So they have to be in a place where they are able to rise.

Do you have any understanding of the Spirit Man that is the real YOU? When ANYONE dies, the human spirit with the soul (mind, will, emotions, memories) leave the body. Sinners are dragged down to hell. Believers are escorted to heaven.

When Christ descends for the rapture, He will bring with Him the billions of saints who have died. They are SPIRIT without a body, for their body was buried. God will RESURRECT those dead bodies which will fly up into the air - and the spirits from heaven will then JOIN with their resurrected bodies and they will be whole forever more. God will make this process easy because the new resurrected bodies will be up in the air. I am SURE the Holy Spirit will guide each spirit to its own body. it will all happen in an instant.

There are now walking the earth MANY PEOPLE whom God has allowed to SEE heaven. Some died, but were prayed back to their bodies. Some were just taken so God could show heaven off. I have heard in person two people whom God has allowed to see heaven. I have heard someone whom God took to hell. I have been in his house and shook his hand. He has a book.

Look up Gary L Wood. I have heard his testimony again and again. I have shaken his hand. He died in a car wreck, but his sister prayed him back from heaven.

We could ignore all these books and testimonies if the disagreed with the bible, but the truth is, they DON'T. Paul wrote that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Of course you are free to believe anything.
 
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First, I like the way you brought all those "coming: verses together.

The Lord Gathers His Elect For the Upcoming Battle:
(The Call to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb):

Sorry, but this is simply wrong.
Stop rearranging what John wrote! The marriage and supper will take place IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. Therefore AFTER the wedding supper He will descend to the battle of Armageddon.

Your theory is kind of sick: the REAL marriage supper will be in heaven after the marriage, and it will be tables as far as the eye can see along the river of life. It will be the saints feasting on GOOD THINGS TO EAT.

Yes, the vultures will feast, and the buzzards, that is true. But this feast has NOTHING TO DO with the marriage feast in heaven. Throw that sick thought into the trash!

Think John 6:53. Many disciples stopped following Jesus because they thought Jesus was speaking literally about eating His flesh.

It’s obviously not literal. It’s a metaphor.
Revelation has a lot of metaphors.
In the same chapter it talks about a wine press (which is a part of making a beverage) that relates to the Lord’s wrath. Obviously there is no real wine press involved in the 2nd coming. It is not literal, either. It is a metaphor, too.

Also, we read about the phrase “eat the flesh of Kings and the flesh of captains.”

17 “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”
(Revelation 19:17-18).

This phrase “flesh of Kings and captains” is from the Old Testament. It is an OT metaphor that means to conquer your enemies.

Believers are the birds. We are the eagles or the fowl in Heaven.

Read the whole Revelation 19 from start to finish. There is no mention of any meal in heaven.
 
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iamlamad

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Think John 6:53. Many disciples stopped following Jesus because they thought Jesus was speaking literally about eating His flesh.

It’s obviously not literal. It’s a metaphor.
Revelation has a lot of metaphors.
In the same chapter it talks about a wine press (which is a part of making a beverage) that relates to the Lord’s wrath. Obviously there is no real wine press involved in the 2nd coming. It is not literal, either. It is a metaphor, too.

Also, we read about the phrase “eat the flesh of Kings and the flesh of captains.”

17 “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.”
(Revelation 19:17-18).

This phrase “flesh of Kings and captains” is from the Old Testament. It is an OT metaphor that means to conquer your enemies.

Believers are the birds. We are the eagles or the fowl in Heaven.

Read the whole Revelation 19 from start to finish. There is no mention of any meal in heaven.
My friend, the battle of Armageddon is NOT a metaphor! It is going to be a very real battle and millions will die. The Jewish boy Nathan that died, went to heaven to see the end play out, and then came back to his body on the operating table, said that 70 nations came against Israel at this great battle. How many soldiers? For sure more than Israel could overcome. Israel will be losing badly when Jesus descends - or is that also a metaphor in your mind. For sure a dead soldier is only flesh left. Their spirit will be in hell by that time. And for sure, REAL birds will be eating human flesh. It is NOT a metaphor.

I remember a saying: It would do you well to memorize it:

"If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense."

We have to be very careful in Revelation to take literal the things that make sense literally. Much of Revelation IS literal. After all, it is a revealing, not a hiding.

What Jesus said was not to be taken literally: He was speaking of the realm of the Spirit. He is the vine and we are the branches and we live off the vine. Call it ia metaphor if you wish.

OF COURSE there is a meal in Rev. 19. There will be a marriage. In fact, Jesus has copied the typical Jewish marriage of the time. They become betrothed, the man then goes to build a house for them. When the house is finished, he comes and gets his woman. There is then a wedding caravan of bridesmaids that go with them to the wedding. Then there is a feast. The feast may go for 7 days. Jesus made wine at such a feast. Therefore when John wrote that the time for the marriage supper has come, then it has come: RIGHT THEN. The Bride of Christ will eat a supper in heaven.

Have you not read of the many testimonies of people who have BEEN THERE? Years ago they SAW angels preparing. Lately people have been told that all the preparations or done: heaven is only waiting now for the Bride to come. People have seen tables set, with name tags even - tables stretching as far as the eye can see. Since these things fit what is written, why not just believe them? There WILL BE a wedding supper. It will be in heaven. It is all ready prepared.
 
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iamlamad

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What does chapter 5 have to do with not harming the earth, the sea, and the trees in Revelation 7:1 until after the 144,000 have been sealed?

The harming of the earth, the sea, and trees takes part in the second half of the seven years. After the person has become the beast. He rules as the beast 42 months, the second half of the seven years.

What does chapter 5 have to do with that?
The harming of the earth is what THE DAY accomplished. In the Old Testament we are told the DAY is to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth.

My point was, TIMING. These things won't come until the church is gone - raptured. And until the rapture, TIME is the dispensation or age of grace. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus begins with the church age, not the end times. In matthew 24, He does not get to the end timies until verse 13 and 14 and then jumps to the abomination.

Chapter 5 is the context of the first seals, giving us their TIMING. Anyone can make the first seal be almost anything if they are willing to pull it out of the first century context. But IN CONTEXT it is the church.
The truth is, the harming of the earth BEGINS in the first half of teh week, with the first 6 trumpet judgments. The WEEK begins with the 7th seal. Therefore I disagree with you.
 
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The harming of the earth is what THE DAY accomplished. In the Old Testament we are told the DAY is to destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth.

My point was, TIMING. These things won't come until the church is gone - raptured. And until the rapture, TIME is the dispensation or age of grace. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus begins with the church age, not the end times. In matthew 24, He does not get to the end timies until verse 13 and 14 and then jumps to the abomination.

Chapter 5 is the context of the first seals, giving us their TIMING. Anyone can make the first seal be almost anything if they are willing to pull it out of the first century context. But IN CONTEXT it is the church.
The truth is, the harming of the earth BEGINS in the first half of teh week, with the first 6 trumpet judgments. The WEEK begins with the 7th seal. Therefore I disagree with you.
Does the harming of the earth, the sea, and the trees referred to in Revelation 7:1 take place during the time of the beast ruling the earth for 42 months or not?

Revelation 5 doesn't say anything about the harming of the earth, the sea, and the trees.

_________________________________________________________
The 144,000 are sealed before the trumpet judgements begin in the 42 months rule of the beast.

It is not the 144,000 are sealed - then wait 3 1/2 years - until the beast is ruling and the trumpet judgements begin.

The 144,000 are sealed right before the middle of 7 years.
 
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My friend, the battle of Armageddon is NOT a metaphor! It is going to be a very real battle and millions will die. The Jewish boy Nathan that died, went to heaven to see the end play out, and then came back to his body on the operating table, said that 70 nations came against Israel at this great battle. How many soldiers? For sure more than Israel could overcome. Israel will be losing badly when Jesus descends - or is that also a metaphor in your mind. For sure a dead soldier is only flesh left. Their spirit will be in hell by that time. And for sure, REAL birds will be eating human flesh. It is NOT a metaphor.

I remember a saying: It would do you well to memorize it:

"If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense."

We have to be very careful in Revelation to take literal the things that make sense literally. Much of Revelation IS literal. After all, it is a revealing, not a hiding.

What Jesus said was not to be taken literally: He was speaking of the realm of the Spirit. He is the vine and we are the branches and we live off the vine. Call it ia metaphor if you wish.

OF COURSE there is a meal in Rev. 19. There will be a marriage. In fact, Jesus has copied the typical Jewish marriage of the time. They become betrothed, the man then goes to build a house for them. When the house is finished, he comes and gets his woman. There is then a wedding caravan of bridesmaids that go with them to the wedding. Then there is a feast. The feast may go for 7 days. Jesus made wine at such a feast. Therefore when John wrote that the time for the marriage supper has come, then it has come: RIGHT THEN. The Bride of Christ will eat a supper in heaven.

Have you not read of the many testimonies of people who have BEEN THERE? Years ago they SAW angels preparing. Lately people have been told that all the preparations or done: heaven is only waiting now for the Bride to come. People have seen tables set, with name tags even - tables stretching as far as the eye can see. Since these things fit what is written, why not just believe them? There WILL BE a wedding supper. It will be in heaven. It is all ready prepared.

I believe Revelation has many literal events within it. The return of Christ is a very real event. But there are also many metaphors in it, too. If you miss the metaphor, you miss what God is trying to say to us with the metaphor.

Jesus said to His followers to be as: “harmless as doves.” (See: Matthew 10:16).

King David desired wings of a dove, that way he could fly away so as to “rest.” (See: Psalms 55:6). King David commented about the birds within the temple, etc. (See: Psalms 84:1-3).

Isaiah 60:8 says:
"Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?"

The book of Revelation refers to the book of Ezekiel. It talks about the judgment of Gog and Magog, which involves a sacrifice, and a feast for the birds and beasts.

For Ezekiel 39:17-22 says,

"And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."​

Animals, men, horses and chariots, are the food items for dinner. However, men and horses are unclean, and thus, they are not qualified to be for sacrifices. The drinking of blood was forbidden. (See Acts of the Apostles 15:29); And chariots, of course, cannot normally be eaten successfully by us humans.

So a literal interpretation of this passage in Ezekiel 39 (of which we also see something similar in Revelation 19) is refuted because the sacrifice occurs after the burial of the remains of the army of Gog and Magog for 7 months.

So the eating the flesh of kings and captains is a metaphor.
There are many metaphors in the Bible that are interwoven with the real events described to us.
 
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iamlamad

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Does the harming of the earth, the sea, and the trees referred to in Revelation 7:1 take place during the time of the beast ruling the earth for 42 months or not?

Revelation 5 doesn't say anything about the harming of the earth, the sea, and the trees.

_________________________________________________________
The 144,000 are sealed before the trumpet judgements begin in the 42 months rule of the beast.

It is not the 144,000 are sealed - then wait 3 1/2 years - until the beast is ruling and the trumpet judgements begin.

The 144,000 are sealed right before the middle of 7 years.

The beast is revealed at the midpoint of the week. It will be him entering the temple and declaring he is God that reveals who he is. And him entering the temple will stop the sacrifices: the temple will have to be cleansed.

The week begins with the 7th seal and the trumpet judgments. The trumpet judgements START the harming of the earth. At that time few of any people will know who the Beast is. So the answer is, NO. The harming of the earth starts first, 3.5 years before the 42 months of authority begins.

Rev. 5 is the CONTEXT of the first seals. The purpose of chapters 4 & 5 is to introduce us to the book and set the timing for the first seals: 32 AD. It is church age. Seals one through five are church age. God does not start judgment until the age of grace is over at the rapture.

Have you ever watched a play where the curtains close after one act? What happens behind that curtain? They are rearranging the set for the next act.

That is exactly what John is doing when he interrupts his discussion of the seals between the 6th and 7th seal. You see, in the mind of God, TWO things absolutely must happen before that 7th seal:
1. The church must be raptured, and out of the earth before God's wrath.
2. The 144,000 MUST BE sealed for their protection before the "hurt" starts.
John accomplishes these two things in his first intermission. Once these two things are accomplished, then John shows us the opening of the 7th seal that officially starts the 70th week.

The 144,000 are sealed before the trumpet judgements begin in the 42 months rule of the beast. The first half of this is right on: correct. But you are lost as far as the 42 months. Look: just read the book! The Beast is not given his 42 months until chapter 13, and we are discussing events in chapter 6, 7, and 8. The 7th seal will be opened over 3.5 years BEFORE the 42 months of authority begin. Always remember, the trumpet judgments come in the first half of the week; the vials and the 42 months of authority in the second half of the week. ANY theory that must rearrange this to fit - will be proven wrong.
 
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iamlamad

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I believe Revelation has many literal events within it. The return of Christ is a very real event. But there are also many metaphors in it, too. If you miss the metaphor, you miss what God is trying to say to us with the metaphor.

Jesus said to His followers to be as: “harmless as doves.” (See: Matthew 10:16).

King David desired wings of a dove, that way he could fly away so as to “rest.” (See: Psalm 55:6). King David commented about the birds within the temple, etc. (See: Psalms 84:1-3).

Isaiah 60:8 says:
"Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?"

The book of Revelation refers to the book of Ezekiel. It talks about the judgment of Gog and Magog, which involves a sacrifice, and a feast for the birds and beasts.

For Ezekiel 39:17-22 says,

"And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."​

Animals, men, horses and chariots, are the food items for dinner. However, men and horses are unclean, and thus, they are not qualified to be for sacrifices. The drinking of blood was forbidden. (See Acts of the Apostles 15:29); And chariots, of course, cannot normally be eaten successfully by us humans.

So a literal interpretation of this passage in Ezekiel 39 (of which we also see something similar in Revelation 19) is refuted because the sacrifice occurs after the burial of the remains of the army of Gog and Magog for 7 months.

So the eating the flesh of kings and captains is a metaphor.
There are many metaphors in the Bible that are interwoven with the real events described to us.
"Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth"
ANY animal that is dead is fit food for a buzzard! "The mighty" here, and "the princes" are PEOPLE. And birds will feast on them.

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Rev. 19 confirms this. It is a feast for the BIRDS.

I personally think Ezekiel 39 is talking about the Battle of Armageddon.
 
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"Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth"
ANY animal that is dead is fit food for a buzzard! "The mighty" here, and "the princes" are PEOPLE. And birds will feast on them.

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Rev. 19 confirms this. It is a feast for the BIRDS.

I personally think Ezekiel 39 is talking about the Battle of Armageddon.

Another example is when God told Peter to kill and eat unclean animals. Yet, God meant that this was going to be the inclusion of the Gentiles. So the eating of unclean animals (Which is offensive to the Jew) = represents the inclusion of the Gentiles. Granted, in Peter's vision I see it as both literal and metaphorical, but the point here is that God does regard metaphors. If we miss those metaphors, we miss what God is trying to say.

In Revelation 14, we read this.

"And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe." (Revelation 14:18).

Now, if we are going to take your extreme literal approach to this verse, we would have to assume that God is gathering literal grapes from off the Earth. But I think it is safe to say that you think that this verse is metaphorical like me. In fact, the grapes being gathered here is a type of food and it relates to God's coming judgment upon the wicked. Food (grapes) = Coming judgment upon the wicked. So we already have the cross reference or parallel verse that makes it all fit later in Revelation 19. The marriage supper is symbol or a metaphor for the battle of Armageddon. Food (grapes) = judgment (Revelation 14). Food (marriage supper) = judgment (Revelation 19).

King David said,

"I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed." (Psalms 18:37).

Again, metaphorical. King David did not literally consume or eat his enemies.

Many stopped following Jesus because they thought He was referring to cannibalism in reference to His own body (John 6:53). But Jesus was speaking metaphorically.

Jesus said, " "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." (John 6:53).

Jesus said to those who who were offended by this statement,

"Does this offend you?" (John 6:61).

I see this as.... "God may ask us to believe or do certain things that do not make sense at first."

Like with Abraham, God was asking him to do something that was very difficult. To take the life of his son. Little did he realize in the time of his test that this was to be a later metaphor of God the Father offering up His Son (Jesus Christ) for the salvation of the whole world by paying the price for man's sins so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation.

Now, I think there are Christians who may think (as a result of Christ's teaching on non-resistance under the New Covenant) that destroying His enemies literally is offensive to them. I know of some Christians who are Pacifists who are against all forms of war and they reject the GOD of the Old Testament (Which takes Jesus's teachings on non-resistance to the wrong extreme; Note: I do believe we as Christians are to act non violent in this life as a part of our faith, and we should not take up a gun or weapon to go to war). Anyways, I can imagine those Christians who are offended of God of the OT with Christ saying, "Does this offend you?" For people do not realize that in order to have peace, you need to have war. There needs to be a battle to stand for what you believe in. To stand for the Lord and His good ways vs. the evil and sinful ways. But there is a time and a place for everything. For if the Lord says "stop," we stop. If He says "go" we go.

When a person's stomach rumbles full of hunger and they feel like they are almost passing out of lack of food, a good meal truly satisfies. That is the picture here with the battle of Armageddon with Christ's 2nd coming with his saints following Him into the battle. They are finally going to satisfy the Consummation (Mentioned in Daniel). The End. The Consuming (Consummation) of it all. The Lord and His saints will finally be satisfied by the wicked being destroyed from off the Earth so as to bring in age of righteousness (i.e. the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ).
 
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