Renumeration of pastors and making money off religion

bèlla

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I can't force anybody to do anything but I can reject the ministry of those who obviously are grossly incompatible with our teachings.

Whose teachings? The ones that align with your personal or denominational beliefs?

It's not so much that I find comfort, I find truth. Truth is more important than comfort. Feelings are not the arbiter of truth.

What truth are you addressing? Is it infallible? Has its presentation been infallible from Christ until today?
 
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FireDragon76

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Whose teachings? The ones that align with your personal or denominational beliefs?

I submit to my denomination because it is whether God lead me to be and they teach the catholic faith, the same faith once delivered to the saints.

I can't vouch for people that own many mansion and spend more of their time giving pep talks based on pop psychology. They must have missed the bit about when Jesus said "Blessed are the poor", and that you have to carry your cross.

What truth are you addressing? Is it infallible? Has its presentation been infallible from Christ until today?

Jesus did say the gates of Hell would not stand against us. While that does not necessarily equal any particular scholastic concept of infallibility, it does mean we can have confidence in the ordinary means he has ordained for our salvation.
 
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Tone

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Why do some people seem to think that criticizing a pastor's renumeration and income is improper? Is this a characteristic of the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement as a whole?

It is probably a residue of the clergy/laity dichotomy they inherited from the RCC.
 
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FireDragon76

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It is probably a residue of the clergy/laity dichotomy they inherited from the RCC.

Yeah, but you would expect Lutherans to have that the most then, since we are the closest to catholicism. But scrutinizing our clergy is actually part of being a pious Lutheran, as I pointed out.

I am thinking it is just what we could call the religion of the Old Adam, the Opinio Legis. It doesn't want to stay dead, it never will stay dead until Christ comes back in glory. Which is why preaching the Gospel of the forgiveness of sins apart from works is so important. Salvation is a completely free gift.
 
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FireDragon76

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The qualifier in your comment is "where God led you." What is appropriate for you based on your makeup, beliefs and experiences may not be the right path for someone else.

While I believe God can save people outside my confession, that does not justify error. I believe my confession of faith is about things that are objectively true.

No you can't because you don't know their heart. You haven't acknowledged being privy to their teachings in our discourse thus far. You feel the Lord led you to the Lutheran faith.

I actually investigated this years ago, I had a friend that suggested I look into the Secret and New Thought, and I can recognize similarities to Prosperity preaching. I am not ignorant. My family is from Oklahoma and I heard plenty of this stuff years ago before it even became popular nationwide.
 
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Tone

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Yeah, but you would expect Lutherans to have that the most then, since we are the closest to catholicism. But scrutinizing our clergy is actually part of being a pious Lutheran, as I pointed out.

I am thinking it is just what we could call the religion of the Old Adam, the Opinio Legis. It doesn't want to stay dead, it never will stay dead until Christ comes back in glory. Which is why preaching the Gospel of the forgiveness of sins apart from works is so important. Salvation is a completely free gift.

I'm beginning to wonder if that arcane setup is even viable, at all, in this information age...

*I think it may have served some structural purpose in the body's growth at one time, but may actually hinder it today.
 
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FireDragon76

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The same God that led you to Lutheranism is capable of leading them aright. Just because He speaks doesn't mean we listen or obey. And no one does so perfectly.



Can you expound on your experiences and provide an explanation of The Secret and New Thought Movement and the similarities and differences you've observed? Given the topic I'm sure most would find it edifying.

Because of your lack of ignorance I would assume you're conversant in the occult systems both are founded upon and can provide the information we should be mindful of when discerning this subject. If this is not the case I'm happy to chime in. :)

I will try to get back to you later on this. Right now I'm going to a potlach supper at church.
 
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FireDragon76

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I look forward to continuing. It's always helpful to hear a practitioners feedback. Books rarely tell the tale. Enjoy your dinner.

Unfortunately, I had bad news during dinner, my uncle died. @ViaCrucis has alot of experience with Pentecostalism and his thoughts on Third Wave Neo-Pentecostalism are pretty much the same as my own, though. Alot of that sort of thing is very much influenced by 19th century New Thought.

New Thought - Wikipedia

I actually dabbled in it some years ago when I walked away from the Orthodox Church. I read this book, Think and Grow Rich by Napeleon Hill, it was suggested to me by a New Ager friend, which was loosely based on New Thought and Andrew Carnegie's attitudes towards success. I also read stuff on the Law of Attraction. It's all very easy to see where Prosperity preaching gets its roots from, it's a mishmash of various Christian and non-Christian sentiments unique to America.
 
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FireDragon76

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I'm sorry to hear of your loss. I hope the Lord abides with you and your loved ones during this time of difficulty. :)

The truth behind that system goes well beyond the link you've shared. It provides a loose overview with references to practices most never undertake and their knowledge is limited at best. To understand the crux of New Thought you'd need to understand its roots. And most who reference that message don't mention The Secret or its offshoots. They're minor gateways to something larger.

It's a lot like the musings on the Illuminati. Many reference symbols and behaviors which suggest its presence but can't provide anything beyond speculation. They've never gone down the rabbit hole and are speaking from a position of books and Internet searches.

Reading about a subject doesn't make you a practitioner no more than watching The Food Network would make one a chef. Experience is the difference. Millions of people have read Hill's book and used it as a motivational tool and nothing more. Much like some people read the bible and others are compelled to dig deeper.

The journey is a choice. I think it's best to limit our reference to motivational speaking. I would never make a charge of something more without definitive proof. To suggest a minister has crossed into the systems you've mentioned is a serious charge and it isn't an accusation I'd make in your place.

I'll be blunt. Magical thinking is not the Gospel. The Gospel is God's reconciliation with the world through the death and resurrection of his son Jesus Christ. This is why Luther said that justification is the article upon which the Church stands or falls. in Luther's day, the Church was becoming sidetracked focusing on building edifices, payed for off the backs of peasants (sound familiar?), and becoming a power broker in Europe, often by selling unfounded promises similar to prosperity preachers today.

If you would like to understand more about what is wrong with this kind of religion, I have a video by Wanda Dreifet, who is a theologian in Brazil, and she focuses on the destructive effects of Neo-Pentecostalism in her own country.

 
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FireDragon76

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We return to our original starting point. You don't agree. Are you doing something to help those who've been led astray by these teachings or is the crux of your discomfort your disagreement and nothing more?

I'm not one to quarrel for trivial reasons, generally.

I don't know about you. But when God lays something on my heart there's usually a reason. And it has nothing to do with anyone's teachings and everything to do with a soul's endangerment. I'm meant to do something. It isn't fodder for postulations. Not in my experience.

Why do you think this is merely about postulations? I've seen the harm that a religion built on dubious promises does personally, and my Significant Other has seen the ins and outs of Pentecostalism herself and had the scars to prove it.
 
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FireDragon76

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We don't have a quarrel. I have significant experience in many religious systems. I can speak candidly with its adherents while maintaining a Christian position without inserting its verbiage. Practitioners have a different lingo. This is true for the learned and those who've studied many mysteries. Their language is simple and devoid of the pretense of knowledge. In fact, the further they go the simpler it becomes.



You won't sway a soul with intellectual arguments. If you want to reach a person who has been injured you need to meet them in a different place. Not the one you're speaking from. You have to get personal and move away from academia and finger pointing. All you'll do is drive the person closer to their belief system and look like the enemy.

The best thing to do with a subject like this is listen and discover why the person is drawn to a specific teaching or practice. And it's greater than prosperity. It's something burrowed in the soul the message is speaking to that others haven't touched. Much like Lutheranism does for you.

Don't restrict your mind to the obvious. That's rarely the reason. Perhaps you should create a thread on the Word of Faith forum and pose the question. And listen to their response. You may be surprised. :)

I can assure you I have little pretense of knowledge. I have devoted the last decade of my life pursuing religious questions, including studying philosophy and Church history, to understand what makes Christianity tick. I have also had experience in various kinds of church settings throughout my life.

The Lutheran approach to being Christian values the intellect, that is one reason I appreciate it. We do have an affective and even a mystical side, but we are primarily driven by doctrine and intellectual discourse. We also value genuine scholarship and analysis of ideas.

I used to be Orthodox, and that was a somewhat different approach, much more mystical. But it also leaves room for real potential abuse because it's very authoritarian and hierarchical as well.
 
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Tone

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I'll be blunt. Magical thinking is not the Gospel. The Gospel is God's reconciliation with the world through the death and resurrection of his son Jesus Christ. This is why Luther said that justification is the article upon which the Church stands or falls. in Luther's day, the Church was becoming sidetracked focusing on building edifices, payed for off the backs of peasants (sound familiar?), and becoming a power broker in Europe, often by selling unfounded promises similar to prosperity preachers today.

If you would like to understand more about what is wrong with this kind of religion, I have a video by Wanda Dreifet, who is a theologian in Brazil, and she focuses on the destructive effects of Neo-Pentecostalism in her own country.


So is Wanda Dreifet basically saying that, since the congregation is poor, they desire to defend a monetarily prosperous leader, because that is exactly what they themselves aspire unto? I'm halfway through the vid., but that's what I'm hearing right now. If so, I'm not following the whole "magic" discussion you and LaBella (hi!) are having...unless it is somehow tying in with money?

*Wow, another user has the same avatar and is linking...
 
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But you're not talking to Lutherans. You're addressing a group of people with a very different theology and practice. How will you reach them?



Tone's response touches on this and I plan to address it. I've spoken to many former Christians and this at that the top of their list.

Sorry about my edit. I have alot of expertise, though. In fact, sometimes I have contemplated becoming a theologian, my pastor has suggested it.

I guess you are interested in personal testimony, that does seem to be the modern approach for many people. My Orthodox past bleeds through and I feel a bit embarrassed to talk about anything touching on spiritual experiences because they are so intimate and personal. It's like talking about your sex life. Needless to say, at one point I did identify with the charismatic elements of Anglicanism/Episcopalianism, and at one time I had a very mystical, "inward" orientation to Christianity, much as you do. In fact, much of my years as a Christian adult revert were spent in a charismatic, broad, Anglican setting, before I got very much into the notion of being Eastern Orthodox, allured by an intuitively more Eastern approach to things anyways (at one time in my life, I identify as a Buddhist).

Ultimately, being Lutheran is about reconciling two things- my loyalty to Jesus Christ and the broad catholic tradition, and my desire to live a life of integrity in pursuit of truth. That was simply not possible in the Orthodox church. And the Orthodox Church has an extremely compelling, coherent self-understanding. So it forced me to deconstruct what was off about my experience there, and I came away with some very Luther-esque conclusions. Gradually, I ended up unconsciously becoming more "Lutheran" as an Orthodox Christian, and then finally severing my relationship altogether. Then I went through an ultimately unfulfilling experience in the Episcopal Church before seeking out a congregation in the ELCA that would live out the radical grace I had experienced in my new understanding of the Gospel.
 
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