GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

sparow said:

To me your questions are nonsensical; and like asking Mohammad, is God moon shaped or Sun shaped.

We are operating in different universes or on different pages and the covenant is where we separate. For me what is called the new covenant is fiction. Jeremiah first speaks of a new covenant and he specifies two differences: those in covenant with God would know the Law without having to learn it, and second, the sins of the father would no longer visit his children for three generations.

There are other differences such as Jesus is the moderator and no longer Moses, but none of these changes are changes to the covenant only changes to the administration of it.

The old covenant establishes all things the new covenant confirms all those things, brings promises and terms of contract in to a reality. Christ's presence authenticates the OT and the OT authenticates Christ.

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No

sparow said:

Remember the Pharisees they claimed their Law would not permit them to kill Jesus so they asked the Romans to do it, even though they were prepared to stone Mary. I am not aware of people being put to death for working on the Sabbath and I believe the scripture refers to God causing people to die; but every body dies so has every one worked on the Sabbath. Exodus 31;14 equates being put to death with being cut off from Israel the same as not being circumcised so this death could be the second death.

The Church doesn't put people to death today but on previous days they have done. There is a state in the US formed by Puritans who had a Law that said anyone working on Sunday would be put to death by hanging; no one was charged or put to death but 35 year back that law was still valid and not repealed.

The Church has killed people for keeping the Sabbath that is what the Inquisitions were about.

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You appeal to this for self justification.

sparow said:

I believe God's people should follow God's Law; Moses may have coloured God's Law as he applied it to Israel, bur Moses did not own the Law.

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Why do you believe Christians should follow the famous 10?

sparow said:

Paul is appeasing Jews who were unable to covenant with God, but this is what God did,He made Jesus a stumbling block for the Lawless.

Isaiah 8:11-16 (NKJV)
11 For the LORD spoke thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying:
12 "Do not say, 'A conspiracy,' Concerning all that this people call a conspiracy, Nor be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.
13 The LORD of hosts, Him you shall hallow; Let Him be your fear, And let Him be your dread.
14 He will be as a sanctuary, But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense To both the houses of Israel, As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble; They shall fall and be broken, Be snared and taken."
16 Bind up the testimony, Seal the law among my disciples.

Isaiah 28:16-17 (NKJV)
16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place.

Matthew 7:22-23 (NKJV)
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

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The law of Moses was nailed to the cross.


Not the 10 Commandments, the law of Moses.


The law was added, until the Seed, Christ Jesus should come and fulfill the law.


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19


By saying “until”, the Spirit is indicating the law of Moses was temporary.




JLB

ace of hearts said:

Why do you believe Christians should follow the famous 10?

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I believe people who are in covenant with God keep the ten because there is no other covenant that God has made.

I remember the Presbyterians of the 1940-60s who according to the Westminster confession kept the ten even though they believed Sunday was the Sabbath.

At the council of Trent the Catholics argued that if the Protestants went by the Bible and the Bible alone they would have to keep the seventh day Sabbath. The Protestants never said the bible does change the Sabbath to Sunday or that the Bible says the Sabbath is no longer required; instead the Protestants folded and the Inquisitions resumed. The Sabbath keeping church in India, started by the apostle Thomas was changed to Sunday keeping by Jesuit Priests and following India the Waldensians were changed to Sunday keeping after centauries off persecution.

Sunday keeping is not following God, it is following Rome and always has been.

sparow said:

I believe people who are in covenant with God keep the ten because there is no other covenant that God has made.

I remember the Presbyterians of the 1940-60s who according to the Westminster confession kept the ten even though they believed Sunday was the Sabbath.

At the council of Trent the Catholics argued that if the Protestants went by the Bible and the Bible alone they would have to keep the seventh day Sabbath. The Protestants never said the bible does change the Sabbath to Sunday or that the Bible says the Sabbath is no longer required; instead the Protestants folded and the Inquisitions resumed. The Sabbath keeping church in India, started by the apostle Thomas was changed to Sunday keeping by Jesuit Priests and following India the Waldensians were changed to Sunday keeping after centauries off persecution.

Sunday keeping is not following God, it is following Rome and always has been.

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Then how do you trust Jesus for salvation?

JLB777 said:

The law of Moses was nailed to the cross.


Not the 10 Commandments, the law of Moses.


The law was added, until the Seed, Christ Jesus should come and fulfill the law.


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Galatians 3:19


By saying “until”, the Spirit is indicating the law of Moses was temporary.




JLB

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Given that the Law of Moses is some kind of semantic take, I am surprised you would separate the ten from the rest.

To consider the Law of Moses or the Law of God is nailed to the cross does despite to the work of Christ on the cross; which primarily was two fold:

He sheds His blood for the remission of sin as required by the old covenant where the lambs had been temporary surrogates.

He redeems his people by suffering for the gratification of Satan.

These two, not exclusively, confirm the covenant of which Moses was the mediator.

In allowing the cross to have a different purpose such as annulling the Law/covenant that gives credibility and legitimacy to Christ which accordingly would mean Christ has no credibility or legitimacy.

Now the new covenant where the covenant is renewed with the lost sheep of Israel, and later extended to gentiles.

It is made clear in the old testament that there is only one Law, not one for Israel and a separate Law for gentiles. There is only one King, who is Christ and one Kingdom of God, not two.

ace of hearts said:

Then how do you trust Jesus for salvation?

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I would say I don't have another choice. I believe that the Word (spokesperson) of God that became flesh as Jesus, also created the heavens and the earth, also presented the covenant, (Plan of salvation) to Moses; who else could I trust; remembering that He now has a new name.

sparow said:

To consider the Law of Moses or the Law of God is nailed to the cross does despite to the work of Christ on the cross; which primarily was two fold:

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Not the law of God, the law of Moses.

The very thing that separated Jew and Gentile.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15

• having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

JLB

JLB777 said:

Not the law of God, the law of Moses.

The very thing that separated Jew and Gentile.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15

• having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

JLB

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The law of Moses is the law of God. To reject the law of Moses is to reject the law of God.

sparow said:

I would say I don't have another choice. I believe that the Word (spokesperson) of God that became flesh as Jesus, also created the heavens and the earth, also presented the covenant, (Plan of salvation) to Moses; who else could I trust; remembering that He now has a new name.

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I'm very curious what exactly are you calling the plan of salvation presented to Moses?

Dkh587 said:

The law of Moses is the law of God. To reject the law of Moses is to reject the law of God.

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No.

Dkh587 said:

The law of Moses is the law of God. To reject the law of Moses is to reject the law of God.

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The law of Moses was the law of God, it was nailed to the cross.


Do you sacrifice animals for your sins?

Do you put to death people for working on the Sabbath?


The law is not of faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God.


Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:12





JLB

JLB777 said:

The law of Moses was the law of God, it was nailed to the cross.


Do you sacrifice animals for your sins?

Do you put to death people for working on the Sabbath?


The law is not of faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God.


Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Galatians 3:12





JLB

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Sounds to me like you don’t uphold the law by your faith, which is contrary to the Apostle Paul in Romans 3:31

Dkh587 said:

Sounds to me like you don’t uphold the law by your faith, which is contrary to the Apostle Paul in Romans 3:31

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Of course my faith upholds the law, because I understand what Paul means.


Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish (uphold) the law.
Romans 3:27-31


The better rendering for the original word here is indeed uphold.


The word carries the idea of a set of scales and one side upholding the other in the scales of justice.


Both the law and faith have the same “weight of measure” that balances or upholds each other in the scales of justice (righteousness).


That same weight of measure is obedience.


Both the law of faith and the law of Moses require obedience


Do you understand what obey the Gospel means?



JLB

ace of hearts said:

I'm very curious what exactly are you calling the plan of salvation presented to Moses?

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The English word “salvation” first appear in Gen 49:18:

Genesis 49:18 (NKJV)
18 I have waited for your salvation, O LORD!

Jacob the first to overcome, is expecting deliverance and his salvation is timed by his death. In the OT four words are translated, “salvation”and typically mean deliverance, rescue and safety.
I need a working hypothesis and it goes like this; salvation was planned before creation and creation was the beginning of the implementation of the plan and the culmination of the plan is the Kingdom of God; everything to do with God, man and creation is to with redemption and salvation; there was a war in heaven; salvation is to restore all things; the Kingdom of God is redeemed from antiquity. What was given to the descendants of Abraham, the land and it's system of government in the guise of a covenant was a training model of the Kingdom of God
Psalm 25:3 (NKJV)
3 Indeed, let no one who waits on You be ashamed; Let those be ashamed who deal treacherously without cause.


Psalm 25:5 (NKJV)
5 Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; On You I wait all the day.


Psalm 62:5 (NKJV)
5 My soul, wait silently for God alone, For my expectation is from Him.


Psalm 119:166 (NKJV)
166 LORD, I hope for Your salvation, And I do Your commandments.
Psalm 119:174 (NKJV)
174 I long for Your salvation, O LORD, And Your law is my delight.


Psalm 130:5 (NKJV)
5 I wait for the LORD, my soul waits, And in His word I do hope.


Isaiah 25:9 (NKJV)
9 And it will be said in that day: "Behold, this is our God; We have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; We have waited for Him; We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."


Isaiah 40:31 (NKJV)
31 But those who wait on the LORD Shall renew their strength; They shall mount up with wings like eagles, They shall run and not be weary, They shall walk and not faint.

Lamentations 3:26 (NKJV)
26 It is good that one should hope and wait quietly For the salvation of the LORD.

Bob S said:

Question for all. If the law (Torah) is what is written on our hearts then why do those who claim they keep the law wear clothes without tassels and do not wear the Yarmulke. Are you allowing the barber to trim your sideburns?

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Because we are not under the Old Covenant under moses, but are under the new Testament under Jesus.
Hebrews 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Dkh587 said:

Sounds to me like you don’t uphold the law by your faith, which is contrary to the Apostle Paul in Romans 3:31

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Why does Paul then say - But we are now delivered from the law...?

ace of hearts said:

Why does Paul then say - But we are now delivered from the law...?

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He was saying that law was not given to save us. We are delivered from the penalty of the law that we have broken.

ICONO'CLAST said:

He was saying that law was not given to save us. We are delivered from the penalty of the law that we have broken.

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Please show that from the verse or any other place Paul means such a thing. I also have read Gal 4:21-31.