Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

BNR32FAN · Apr 13, 2019

His student said:
Of the 43 samples I gave most talk about the ability of Christ to deliver those who have once believed - or that we have been translated from death to life forever - or about the divine election of believers by the Father - or the eternal nature of the life we have been given - or our current status on the throne with the Lord, ruling in the Kingdom of God - or the intercessory ministry of Christ - or the eternal sealing by the Holy Spirit of God - or the sufficiency of His sacrifice at Calvary - or that we are not to suffer the wrath of God - or that He is the author of our faith and that He will finish what He began in us - or the blotting out of our sins "forever" --- and many other such things.

The most important thing for you to realize according to your post above is that He is the author of our faith and that He will complete the good work He began in us - no ifs ands or buts.

You seem to think that He is not and that He will not.

You are wrong.

Many of you here seem to have an abysmal lack of understanding concerning the "mechanics of salvation", the basic reason for our salvation, it's assurity and what that assurity says about the faithfulness of the author of our faith who drew us to the Son and whom the Son will deliver up on the day of judgment as trophies of His success at completing all that God sent Him forth to accomplish.

You seem to have conveniently skipped over the lion's share of the N.T. theology concerning salvation in order to preach a gospel of works - which is no gospel at all when all is said and done.

I’m not sure if you noticed my post concerning Ephesians 5

His student said:
Actually it only addressed two of them and then not very effectively IMO.

I listed over 40 and those just scratched the surface.

Don't go to the trouble.

I hadn't intended to stay this long on the thread and your work might be wasted on me. I hate to see you go to all that trouble.

You might want to save your labor to debate others who will be here longer.

BNR32FAN said:
Did you read post 144? This explains most of the verses you quoted friend.

His student said:
Actually it only addressed two of them and then not very effectively IMO.

Here’s my post #144

Before you read John 10:28 please read John 10:27. My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow Me. He doesn’t say they followed Him. They follow present tense.

Before you read John 6:39 please read John 6:37

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”

Notice the definition of the Greek word érchomai which is translated to the word comes or cometh. This is only used in the present and imperfect tense meaning anyone who is presently and continuously coming to Him He will certainly not cast out.

cometh

G2064

Lemma:

ἔρχομαι

Transliteration:

érchomai

Pronounce:

el'-tho

Part of Speech:

Verb

Language:

greek

Description:

1) to come a) of persons

1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

2) metaph. a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto

3) to go, to follow one

Grammar:

middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) , or (active) , which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

Allow me to provide the definitions of the Greek words translated to faith, believe, and believers.

faith

G4102

G4102

Lemma:

πίστις

Transliteration:

pístis

Pronounce:

pis'-tis

Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine

Language:

greek

Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

believe

G4100

G4100

Lemma:

πιστεύω

Transliteration:

pisteúō

Pronounce:

pist-yoo'-o

Part of Speech:

Verb

Language:

greek

Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing

believers

G4103

G4103

Lemma:

πιστός

Transliteration:

pistós

Pronounce:

pis-tos'

Part of Speech:

Adjective

Language:

greek

Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

All three of these imply a certain level of trustworthiness, faithfulness, fidelity, obedience, and devotion.

Just because a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean they are saved. The Holy Spirit guides us it does not take away our free will and our ability to turn away from God.

I have addressed all of the scriptures you have provided. Will you please share your interpretation of John 15:1-10?

Too long for one post. Continued in next post.

BNR32FAN · Apr 13, 2019

1 Timothy 1:12 Paul believed which I have shown in post 144 the definition of the Greek word believe (pisteuo) includes in its definition

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

This implies a certain level of obedience and devotion.

Concerning Ephesians 2:4-6 Paul is undoubtedly talking to children of God and he writes to them in Ephesians 5 warning them of living a sinful lifestyle that results in receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light”

EPHESIANS 5:1-8 NASB

John 5:24 says he that believeth which was explained in post 144.

You posted repeated verses in John 6 3 times which were all explained in post 144 when I provided the definition of the word cometh (érchomai) which is ONLY used in the present and imperfect tense meaning it is a continuous action not a one time action.

John 10:28 was explained in post 144 by explaining John 10:27 in that His sheep hear and follow (present tense). Those that hear and follow He gives eternal life.

John 11:26 again covered in post 144 they believe.

1 John 3:2 I’ve shown that Paul warned children of God of receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience in Ephesians 5. Not to mention John says that children of God cannot practice sin.

Colossians 3:3-4 Again Paul warns believers of receiving God’s wrath on the sons of disobedience just two sentences later. How could you not see this? Do you just pick and choose which verses fit your beliefs or do you actually read the entire message to get the full understanding of what the author is trying to convey?

“Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory. Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,”

COLOSSIANS 3:1-6 NASB

Ephesians 1:3 after they believed they were sealed with the Holy Spirit to which Paul continues in the other verse you posted in Ephesians 4:30 Paul begins his warning I already mentioned in Ephesians 5 by telling them not to grieve the Holy Spirit then continues into chapter 5 explaning what it means to grieve the Holy Spirit which results in receiving the wrath of God.

Ephesians 2 already explained in Ephesians 5 and works have nothing to do with being justified (made right with God). Just because someone has been made right with God doesn’t mean they can’t be made wrong with Him.

Titus 3:5 again your picking one tiny piece of the message instead of the full message.

“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.”

TITUS 2:11-15 NASB

Then he continues in chapter 3 to say

“For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.”

TITUS 3:3-8 NASB

Notice how all this lines up perfectly with the definitions I gave in post 144 for the words faith, believe, and believers. It’s more than a thought and trust but a way of life.

Hebrews 7:25 Paul has just said in chapter 6

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”

HEBREWS 6:4-6 NASB

like I said just because someone is sealed with the Holy Spirit does not mean they cannot fall away and lose their salvation which is why Paul warned us of grieving the Holy Spirit which results in receiving the wrath of God.

Hebrews 10:14 did you continue to read the chapter?

“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.”

HEBREWS 10:26-27 NASB

Romans 8:28 again did you read the entire message?

“But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

ROMANS 8:11-14 NASB

Isaiah 49:15 doesn’t say anything about eternal security. Saying He won’t forget us doesn’t mean we cannot lose our salvation if we turn away from God.

I don’t have time to finish right now but I would like to ask you to please explain just one passage of scripture. John 15:1-10. How does this not refute eternal security?

topher694 · Apr 13, 2019

BCsenior · Apr 13, 2019

"Endurance is the mark of those who will reign with Christ in his kingdom. Clearly, enduring is a characteristic of true believers, while disloyalty
and defection reveal a heart of unbelief."
... John MacArthur in his book ...
"The Gospel According to Jesus", 1994, Zondervan

Don't miss ... the thread coming up soon ...
MacArthur's view of easy-believism/grace-only!
Guess what? He agrees with what the NT clearly teaches!

dad · Apr 13, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
I explained how it meant eternal death, not the physical death you made up.

I explained you were wrong.

IOW I was very clear on my reasoning, just as the bible was clear.

Clearly wrong. God is not a man that He should lie. Though we are faithless yet He abideth faithful. He will never leave of forsake us. WE know that some were delievered to death that their spirits may be saved. The death was not eternal, that is basically blasphemy to claim it would be.

I think you're too far gone for me to help you.

Lose the pretense you could help anyone.

Some people just want to be free to sin so badly they lose all sense of logic. I have to think it's like the Homosexuals that God gives reprobate minds to, he puts it in their mind what they are doing is perfectly fine because they refuse to do as God tells them. To be completely honest, I think he does that because to allow them to think it's right, means they never have good reason to stop, meaning they are most likely done for...at least as I understand it.

Self righteous musings aside, that has zero to do with your losing salvation/eternal death if we blow it claims.

dad · Apr 13, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Peter walked with Jesus for three years, but still had his carnal flesh nature from Adam. It wasn't until after Jesus rose from the dead that in John 20 Jesus blew out of his mouth the Spirit into the mouths of the disciples, making them born again of the Spirit of Christ.

What are you suggesting here, that if one of the apostles had died before this they were doomed? You seem to think only after the Spirit was sent that they were saved?

There are many denominations that do not have the Spirit, but only know about Jesus, but try to follow Him with their carnal flesh. To receive the Spirit you must first repent of all sin.

To be saved we repent, then we can ask for the Spirit. But you will never be perfect here, so don't confuse repenting with some sinless perfection.

My own testimony is that I believed in Jesus for the first 30 years of my life, but it wasn't until I repented that I was given the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and my life changed overnight. Where before I couldn't stop sinning; now I hated what God hated and loved what God loved and was dead to sin. Also, from then on I had the signs of Mark 16:16-18, and 6 of the 9 gifts of the Spirit of 1 Corinthians 12. I'm not saying this to boast, except to say that the scriptures are as true for us today, as they were in the 1st century.

You seem to think that saved people sin and only those that have some additional 'spiritual' experience somehow become sinless. Don't kid yourself, life is too short.

1stcenturylady · Apr 13, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I believe the Spirit would guide them into all truth. I also believe that walking in the Spirit will help a believer to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Which is in accordance to Scripture).

But a believer can overcome sin by the power of Jesus, too.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

Otherwise it would have been a lie for Jesus to tell them to obey His commands when they could not have really done so. For Jesus said,

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

This was not a teaching after the cross, but before it.

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." (John 15:4).

Side Note:

Jesus did not say to Peter, "Hey Peter, it's not your fault you are reacting this way, I have not sent my Spirit upon you yet." No. Jesus did not say that. Jesus rebuked Peter in the fact that he was living by the sword, and in the fact that He could have protected Himself by calling down a bunch of angels (if He wanted to) and He did not need Peter's help in being protected because this was all a part of His plan in going to the cross.

So you believe everyone has the Spirit?

1stcenturylady · Apr 13, 2019

dad said:
What are you suggesting here, that if one of the apostles had died before this they were doomed? You seem to think only after the Spirit was sent that they were saved?

No, just as none of the OT believers who were believing in their Messiah and kept the covenant would have been doomed. Jesus hadn't died yet. They were still under the Old Covenant of the law.

dad said:
To be saved we repent, then we can ask for the Spirit.

Correct. You must truly repent of all sin from your heart.

dad said:
But you will never be perfect here, so don't confuse repenting with some sinless perfection.

If you are given the Spirit, why not walk in the Spirit and not grieve or quench Him? If you don't grieve or quench the Spirit, you will endure to the end and be saved. Those who go back to living to fulfill the lusts of the flesh are like a dog returning to his own vomit. They will NOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

dad said:
You seem to think that saved people sin and only those that have some additional 'spiritual' experience somehow become sinless.

No, I believe only UNsaved people sin, and yes, you MUST be born again of the Spirit of Christ which is the "additional spiritual experience" called being baptized in the Spirit. If you do not have the Spirit, you do not belong to Christ, Romans 8:9.

dad · Apr 13, 2019

Jason0047 said:
It's not about guessing. .

Yes you are guessing. Peter lashed out..for whatever reason.

So you believe that a born again saved believer can turn back and or fall into grievous sin and die spiritually? .

No way.

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

Let's look at a verse from your list.

19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

So you think learning stuff means burning in hell?? Sorry. Even Jesus learned obedience while here. We all learn.

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

No way. Lose/forfeit is the same thing. You either have it or not! We do.

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

In some cases people clung to believers but were not saved or sincere. So Demas may have been that type.
The prodigal son leaned stuff, in no way was he cast from salvation! Judas was never saved or sincere but a thief and a liar and a Satan possessed traitor. Ananias and Sapphira lost their lives on earth, not their salvation. etc etc. In other words everything you see where people fall or stumble of get judged looks to you like God taking back salvation. No. No. No.

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

If they were actually believers, and fell...so what! Get in line. That is life. God knows all about it and works with it! That is why He judges us here and now, out of love and for our good. Nothing to do with Him going back on His end of the deal at all.

Far as I am concerned looking at Scripture like that is religious twaddle and evidence we don't really know Jesus very well. Disgusting.

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil;

False dichotomy. Not everyone that makes mistakes (sins) is doing so to live for themselves sin and evil! A just man falleth seven times a day and rises back up again. Falling is part of our walk with God basically for most of us.

But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Doing evil is rejecting Jesus. Being imperfect is part of being a believer!

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Jesus is the light and when we get saved we come to Him. Then we learn our deeds are maybe not as perfect as we may have once thought, but He works on us and we learn stuff.

Well, I am not convinced you understand my position on Dualistic Conditional Immortality.

So? Who made that up, not Jesus! I understand religious baloney when I see it.

To check out my many points with Scripture (and in explaining the so called Eternal Torment proof texts), you can see my thread on this topic here:

Not really the thread to delve into your pet theories.

It says that there will be those who have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof.
This means they are "semi-holy" and they are denying the working of God's power in their life to live holy.

Not talking about those who are saved and love Jesus. That is talking about phonies that find some advantage in using a false front.

Peter talks about false prophets who cannot cease from sin (See 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14).
The idea goes like this. If the false prophets are categorized as "not ceasing from sin" then that means that this is something that we should not be like, as well. For Peter is identifying something bad in these false prophets so that we can recognize them.

False prophets are more like those that try to keep people from Jesus, than believers who would try to get people to Jesus. Like the false prophets of so called science that claim there was no creation.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

And religious people of Jesus' day accused Him of being a lustful glutton and wino! Some people seem to think enjoying like is sin. Sorry, I am not of the 'sourpuss' religion.

Peter says in 1 Peter 4:1-2 that a believer can cease from sin and that we should live the rest of our time not to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God.

What we cease from mainly is not believing when we get saved. The only unforgivable sin is unbelief (rejecting His spirit). Whatever you want to call making mistakes and 'sins' and blowing it, and failings, we will not be perfect in this life. Pretending you are is just another mistake.

Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works in Titus 1:16.

Right, some will have their works burned so to still be saved, but it is a tough way to go, and as Paul puts it..
1Co 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

John says that if you hate your brother, you are a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See 1 John 3:15). I fail to see how this verse works with Eternal Security (OSAS) or a Belief Alone (Non OSAS) type belief.

Great. So let's try to be loving. Some people are so tossed by the wind of every doubt and doctrine that they seem to think if we get angry sometime, we might lose our salvation because we had a sort of hateful feeling moment! Ha. No. Moses got angry. Jesus got angry. Etc etc etc. Do you condemn David to hell because he mentioned he hated them that hate God?? Was Jesus evil because He overthrew tables and talked to the religious devils the way He did?

I mean stop and think about it. Is there really a difference in justifying grievous one sin (like say lying, lusting, hate) vs. many?

Hey, there are degrees of 'sin'. People lie about where they went on vacation, or income, or ex spouse etc etc. The lust after potato chips and coffee maybe etc etc. To be grievous may not mean doing things we regret that we don't really want to do, and try not to do. I mean some people might use 2 straws or too much toilet paper or napkins and that might be stealing. Some people maybe just try to be righteous overmuch!
Now if someone is openly lusting after someone's wife, with drooling long looks and making the husband and woman feel bad, well yes, that is adultery basically. If we try to watch our staring, and look away etc...maybe that is just life.

Side Note:

Please take note that I am talking about overcoming grievous sin, and I am not talking about minor infractions or faults of character. For not all sin is the same (See 1 John 5:16-17) (Psalms 19:12) (1 Peter 3:21).

God knows the heart and He judges. Now is a saved person really did become a disgrace to the cause and didn't get down to serious repenting business, well, don't be surprised if God takes them home for a little chat.

dad · Apr 13, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 talk about those who worship the beast never even had their names written in the LAMB's book of life since the foundation of the world. This means that GOD knew who these individuals were from the very beginning and they never had salvation ever. Jesus did not pay the price for their sins because they were never in His book of life.

Or God knew they would refuse Jesus. He paid the price for all of us.

Everyone else did have their name written in the LAMB's book of life since the foundation of the world. For they would be saved as a baby (By Christ's sacrifice).

Forget harping on some book that you do not even know what it really is to justify your opinions.

It is only when they would fall into a life of sin that they would be separated from the Lord (i.e. When they received the knowledge of good and evil).

Though He hides His face from us yet are we not forsaken. NOTHING can separate us from the love of God permanently!

This is why they need to be born again later so as to be restored back to God.

If they already were born again, they can't be born yet again. Either they were or not. If they were and they fall, He helps em back up.

This is a picture of the Parable of the Prodigal Son. A person goes prodigal from the time of their infancy, and they can come back to the Everlasting Father (Jesus) by seeking forgiveness with Him and in becoming a servant to Him.

Not really. The kid made a mistake. He learned. Things were OK after the tough times.

Kenny'sID · Apr 13, 2019

Danthemailman said:
The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they have obtained salvation, but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Yet Jesus tells us straight up right here what the "basis" really is, do good or go to Hell. Aaaaand once again:

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

he didn't bother telling us it will be evidence of anything, he went directly to the point, but It's very clear some of you don't believe what Jesus is saying and choose your own understanding.

Evidence? If we do as Christ is telling us right there, that is evidence we want to go to heaven, evidence we have faith because we are obedient, and if we endure in that obedience till the end that is evidence enough for God to let us in the gates.

That scripture is a simply stated warning for people who say all we need to do is say we have faith, and we need do nothing to prove it, we can live how we like/not "do good", and still go to heaven. It's for the ones that "say" they have faith but at the same time they don't have to do as God/Christ tells them. It's for the ones that are basically lazy, and selfish and want to reap the rewards, but do none of the work, who's itching ears home in on people and pastors that agree with what they want, NOT what God wants.

It's funny that scripture starts with "Do not be amazed", and it makes perfect sense because many on the day of reckoning will say "What!? I didn't know that!" To which Christ will likely reply something to the affect of "Yes, you did know it, I warned you right here but you chose not to listen".

The man went to the trouble to die a horrible death so we could be saved, so it seems to me, the least we can do is show we care enough to listen to his warnings, do as he said, can the lip service/faith only attitude and actually show him we have faith, and appreciate what he did.

Kenny'sID · Apr 13, 2019

dad said:
I explained you were wrong.
Clearly wrong. God is not a man that He should lie. Though we are faithless yet He abideth faithful. He will never leave of forsake us. WE know that some were delievered to death that their spirits may be saved. The death was not eternal, that is basically blasphemy to claim it would be.
Lose the pretense you could help anyone.

Self righteous musings aside, that has zero to do with your losing salvation/eternal death if we blow it claims.

Like I said, as far as I can see, you're beyond help.

dad · Apr 13, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
No, just as none of the OT believers who were believing in their Messiah and kept the covenant would have been doomed. Jesus hadn't died yet. They were still under the Old Covenant of the law.

Jesus mentioned at the last supper the new deal was here actually, no?

Mt 26:28 -For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Correct. You must truly repent of all sin from your heart.

If you are given the Spirit, why not walk in the Spirit and not grieve or quench Him?

Great idea. Too bad we are not perfect though. Paul did not count himself to have attained. would think that the term quenching the spirit is somewhat deeper than little everyday mistakes.

If you don't grieve or quench the Spirit, you will endure to the end and be saved.

Once He is in us He won't be quenched. The quenching probably has to do with keeping His Spirit out. Now if there is some other application also, such as people in a gathering trying to kill every possibility of spiritual gifts or something, well, fine I could see that too. It is not the enduring that saves us. We endure because He is in us. That particular verse also has to do with the folks in a certain time period, the tribulation enduring through it. That should not be taken to mean that any believer that somehow fails or doesn't endure something lost his salvation!

Those who go back to living to fulfill the lusts of the flesh are like a dog returning to his own vomit.

That sounds like phonies getting tired of pretending and getting back to what they love.

They will NOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

They were not saved.

No, I believe only UNsaved people sin,

Well, then call it what you like, you are still not perfect or keeping the ten commandments etc!

and yes, you MUST be born again of the Spirit of Christ which is the "additional spiritual experience" called being baptized in the Spirit.

Well, when we are saved we get His Spirit to some degree. Receiving the Spirit after salvation is not salvation but a renewal or gift or something special we need to avail ourselves of. Being born again refers to salvation. The Pentecost was not what saved them.

If you do not have the Spirit, you do not belong to Christ, Romans 8:9.

Basically, if we sincerely ask for salvation then we do have it.

dad · Apr 13, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Like I said, as far as I can see, you're beyond help.

Your works religion trip was defeated. Call it how you like.

His student · Apr 13, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Actually, the Bible says this, and it means what it says.

Jason0047 said:
Again, BCsenior did not say this. The Bible says this.

BCsenior (and apparently you as well) is making a classic mistake people make in logic.

Here are crude examples and it's the kind of false leaps of logic that he makes throughout his posts.

"Dogs who fetch a ball are good dogs. THEREFORE dogs who don't fetch a ball are bad dogs."

"Dogs who refuse to fetch are bad dogs. Therefore all dogs who fetch are good dogs."

"The Lone Ranger's stallion is white. Therefore white stallions all belong to the Lone Ranger."

I could go on and on. But the point is that BCsenior has been making assumptions that are logically unwarranted.

A example from Bcsenior's post:

“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.” 2 Timothy 2:12 Therefore if we do not endure we shall not reign with Him.

When you say, in his defense, "BCsenior did not say this. The Bible says this." You are wrong.

This is poor logic. You may believe that this is true - but the scripture doesn't teach that and it's wrong to say that it does.

It may be debatable that salvation can be lost (as you and BCsenior see things). But when he gives what i assume are his best scriptures in the OP and then comes to illogical conclusions about them to show that salvation can be lost - it doesn't make for a very good argument at all.

Kenny'sID · Apr 13, 2019

His student said:
BCsenior (and apparently you as well) is making a classic mistake people make in logic.

Here are crude examples and it's the kind of false leaps of logic that he makes throughout his posts.

"Dogs who fetch a ball are good dogs. THEREFORE dogs who don't fetch a ball are bad dogs."

"Dogs who refuse to fetch are bad dogs. Therefore all dogs who fetch are good dogs."

"The Lone Ranger's stallion is white. Therefore white stallions all belong to the Lone Ranger."

I could go on and on. But the point is that BCsenior has been making assumptions that are logically unwarranted.

A example from Bcsenior's post:

“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.” 2 Timothy 2:12 Therefore if we do not endure we shall not reign with Him.

When you say, in his defense, "BCsenior did not say this. The Bible says this." You are wrong.

This is poor logic. You may believe that this is true - but the scripture doesn't teach that and it's wrong to say that it does.

It may be debatable that salvation can be lost (as you and BCsenior see things). But when he gives what i assume are his best scriptures in the OP and then comes to illogical conclusions about them to show that salvation can be lost - it doesn't make for a very good argument at all.

How long did you have to work to come up with that? Did you honestly think you had something that made a good point there?

“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.” 2 Timothy 2:12 Therefore if we do not endure we shall not reign with Him."

How is that not logical? See, that's the part you didn't address, so not only is your finding as illogical as it can possibly be, but you are simply not being truthful.

But keep it up, there are those here that will have no trouble believing that, it you know what I mean,

His student · Apr 13, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t have time to finish right now but I would like to ask you to please explain just one passage of scripture. John 15:1-10. How does this not refute eternal security?

It's pretty straight forward.

"“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."

All true believers will bear fruit. Those who do not bear fruit are not believers and the Father "takes them away" - whatever all that may entail.

Believers are pruned to bear more more and more fruit as they undergo sanctification throughout their lives.

Believers are clean by virtue of the new nature they received when they were born again.

Believers must abide in Christ to bear more and more fruit. If we do - we will bear much fruit.

Those who do not abide in Christ dry up and become useless for His purposes.
Those in the world gather them and throw them into the fire - whatever all that may entail.

If we abide in Him and His words abide in us - we can ask in prayer and be assured that we will have whatever we ask for.

The Father is glorified in our bearing of much fruit and prove ourselves to be good disciples of His Son.

If we keep His commandments - we will abide in His love just as Christ does His Father.

Now the classic mistake you and BCsenior could make, and that you probably will make based on previous illogical leaps, is that the passage teaches that God will gather believers up and burn them in Hell if they fail to live up to what the Lord told us was the desire of God.

BCsenior · Apr 13, 2019

dad said:
Yes you are guessing.
... Let's look at a verse from your list.

Hey, Praise the Lord ... you finally found a guy
who will try to debunk your PROOF verses!

But, woe is me! ...
I ain't found no one yet who will try to disprove
my dozens, startin' with my signature >>>>

His student · Apr 13, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
How is that not logical? See, that's the part you didn't address, so not only is your finding as illogical as it can possibly be, but you are simply not being truthful.

The entire statement from God's Word found in 2 Timothy 2:12 is not only true it is logical that God should feel that way based on other things He has told us concerning His holiness.

The leap which says that those who do not endure til the end will have their salvation taken away from them (based on the portion of the scripture cited by BCsenior) is not proper logic.

I don't have time to give you even a beginning class on logic. But I assure you that anyone who knows the slightest thing about logic will see exactly how his leaps are illogical.

Kenny'sID said:
But keep it up, there are those here that will have no trouble believing that, it you know what I mean,

Again - anyone who has the slightest knowledge of the principles of logic will agree with me concerning the illogical leaps he has made.

And - now you seem to be of the same mindset concerning these leaps of illogical conclusion.

BCsenior · Apr 13, 2019

His student said:
Now the classic mistake you and BCsenior could make ... is that the passage teaches that God will gather believers up and burn them in Hell,
if they fail to live up to what the Lord
told us was the desire of God.

NO ... WRONG ... 'tis the Truth that we WILL make!

Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Go Turtle!

Still an evangelist

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Spirit-filled follower of Christ

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Still an evangelist

Well-Known Member

Still an evangelist

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