Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

Jason0047 said:

Well, in order for your belief here to be true, God would have to agree with sin. For if God's very plan of salvation is to make for us to think that we can sin and still be saved, then it must be a way that God wants us to think and it would be of God's mind and thoughts. But the Scriptures say The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked..." (Jeremiah 17:9). The Scriptures say, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8). The Scriptures say that there is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5); And the Lord is holy (Isaiah 43:15).

Scripture says we have the mind if Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Christ never sinned once (1 Peter 2:22).
Christ's mindset was sinlessness. We are said to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Yet, your mind is not like that. It is set on how you think you can sin and still be saved (Which is contrary to many Scripture verses).

Hebrews 3:12-13

You said, I quote:

"...to all who believe you can lose your salvation by not doing good works"
~ Poster: Gods not mad.​

Let's test that theory with Scripture.

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”
(Matthew 25:21).
​

If that is not enough, I have tons more verses. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check them out.

Spoiler

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

Actually, this is not what the Bible teaches about Christ's blood or salvation.

We are told to walk in the light and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

Walking in the light is in context to loving your brother (1 John 2:10).
Loving your brother (neighbor) is the same equivalent of keeping the moral Law or God's commandments according to Paul (See Romans 13:8-10).
This is why John says that we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). For if any person claims to know the Lord and they do not keep his commandments, they are a liar and the truth (Jesus) is not in them (1 John 2:4).
A person cannot be saved or have life without abiding in the Son (Jesus); For 1 John 5:12 says that he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son, does not have life.
God abides with the righteous because God is holy and righteous Himself.
For what fellowship does light have with darkness? (See: 2 Corinthians 6:14).



It is true that God does not like false man made self righteousness (apart from His Word) or that we can be good or righteous without God working in us to be righteous (after we are saved by God's grace). But Scripture says that the Lord loves the righteous and He is angry with the wicked every day.

"For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright."
(Psalms 11:7).

"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
(Psalms 7:11).

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Jason0047 said:

Well, in order for your belief here to be true, God would have to agree with sin

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but you still did not personally answer my questions. let us agree that when you do answer the questions the holy spirit will be witness to your answers. there not that hard i just want to see how perfect you are that's all.

"Scripture says we have the mind if Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Christ never sinned once (1 Peter 2:22).
Christ's mindset was sinlessness. We are said to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Yet, your mind is not like that. It is set on how you think you can sin and still be saved (Which is contrary to many Scripture verses)." who ever said my mind was set on how i could sin and still be saved. i know i didn't. fully accepting God's grace is the only way to have victory over sin.

i would love to go over the scriptures above and have a discussion but i asked you a question which in your well thought answers you neglected to answer.

"In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do." perhaps by showing me your perfection in your works i may believe the word of God as you do. so lets see how you measure up to your own standard and answer the questions. i may see it a different way your way.

BNR32FAN said:

Out of those 40 how many of them hung on the contingency of faith and belief? Hence the definitions I provided.

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Of the 43 samples I gave most talk about the ability of Christ to deliver those who have once believed - or that we have been translated from death to life forever - or about the divine election of believers by the Father - or the eternal nature of the life we have been given - or our current status on the throne with the Lord, ruling in the Kingdom of God - or the intercessory ministry of Christ - or the eternal sealing by the Holy Spirit of God - or the sufficiency of His sacrifice at Calvary - or that we are not to suffer the wrath of God - or that He is the author of our faith and that He will finish what He began in us - or the blotting out of our sins "forever" --- and many other such things.

The most important thing for you to realize according to your post above is that He is the author of our faith and that He will complete the good work He began in us - no ifs ands or buts.

You seem to think that He is not and that He will not.

You are wrong.

Many of you here seem to have an abysmal lack of understanding concerning the "mechanics of salvation", the basic reason for our salvation, it's assurity and what that assurity says about the faithfulness of the author of our faith who drew us to the Son and whom the Son will deliver up on the day of judgment as trophies of His success at completing all that God sent Him forth to accomplish.

You seem to have conveniently skipped over the lion's share of the N.T. theology concerning salvation in order to preach a gospel of works - which is no gospel at all when all is said and done.

dad said:

I see. So I guess if we cut off their ear with a sword like Peter did, we get appointed unto wrath. Got it.

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I don’t think it was anger. It was more about protecting His Lord. But Peter did not fully comprehend Christ’s teaching on non resistance yet.

You said:

Right, so if we have some hate for a moment we are murderers and appointed unto eternal wrath. Got it.

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I think in some rare cases, if a believer makes light of sin, the Lord can most certainly judge them to destruction for behaving wrongfully. The Lord knows their heart and future free will choices. A person appointed themselves to their own destruction.

Oh, and I don’t believe in eternal torment. I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the belief that hell is a very real place, but after the Judgement, the wicked will eventually be destroyed or annihilated in the Lake of Fire. For God is not unjust.

You said:

No need to change any, just a need to understand them.

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No. You are not reading the text plainly. Hence, you need to come up with some kind of odd work around to make it strangely fit in some kind failed experiment. For it would be like trying to sew a large elephant trunk on to a small little kitten. Things would have to constantly be read out of context.

dad said:

The book of life is not a book of those who chose Jesus only, apparently, but also of names that could have but refused, so they get blotted out. As for your claim that the bible is silly talking about what can happen to believers in extreme cases, sorry, you are overruled. Paul clearly talked of some being delivered to death so that their spirit would live.

Whether we live or die it is gain! The folks who worshiped idols lost their chance but who says they were saved??

Php 1:21 - For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Once we commit ourselves to His hands, no one will ever be plucking us out, not even ourselves. We might sin unto death...sin so bad God sees fit that it is better we no longer live on earth in the flesh...but we shall never die if we believe in Jesus.

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If someone's name was in the book then they were saved. Otherwise why would their names be blotted out?

1stcenturylady said:

I doubt that person is even saved to begin with? In order to be saved we MUST be born again of the Spirit of Christ. The person you are describing is fulfilling the lust of the flesh and does not even have a seed of the fruit of the Spirit.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control.

Out of the nine fruit of the Spirit, it is evident that he failed in 7 of the fruit of the Spirit. They will know we are Christians by our FRUIT.

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I see, so Peter who smote the guy's ear off was not saved to begin with. OK.

Jason0047 said:

I don’t think it was anger. It was more about protecting His Lord. But Peter did not fully comprehend Christ’s teaching on non resistance yet.

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We can guess at motives, but Peter did not turn the other cheek to say the least.

I think in some rare cases, if a believer makes light of sin, the Lord can most certainly judge them to destruction for behaving wrongfully. The Lord knows their heart and future free will choices. A person appointed themselves to their own destruction.

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Since the bible spells out that men can die for some sins, obviously this is the case.

Oh, and I don’t believe in eternal torment. I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the belief that hell is a very real place, but after the Judgement, the wicked will eventually be destroyed or annihilated in the Lake of Fire. For God is not unjust.

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I see.

No. You are not reading the text plainly. Hence, you need to come up with some kind of odd work around to make it strangely fit in some kind failed experiment. For it would be like trying to sew a large elephant trunk on to a small little kitten. Things would have to constantly be read out of context.

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Not only am I reading it correctly but in unison with the rest of the bible.

dad said:

Right, physical death, you do not save people from eternal death. David was severely punished/judged for sins. That was a sign God loved Him. Others were killed. Others have judgments that fit their situations. His judgments are better than gold. The gift of eternal life is not up for grabs. His gifts and calling are without repentance.

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Where does it say "physical death"? Pay attention to the subject. Getting them to turn from their sin doesn't save them from physical death, I mean, why would it? However turning from our sin does save us from eternal death, so of course it means eternal death..

But seems you have chosen to toss simple logic so you can see what you want to see.

Invalidusername said:

If someone's name was in the book then they were saved. Otherwise why would their names be blotted out?

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Because who says the book of life is a book of names of people saved by Jesus?

Kenny'sID said:

Where does it say "physical death"? Pay attention to the subject.

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Where does it say any other sort of death??? Paul spelled it out that some need to have their bodies die so their spirits could live.

Getting them to turn from their sin doesn't save them from physical death, I mean, why would it?

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The death that is a judgment from God before their time is what is avoided. Not death itself, because all die. Some just have to go early.

However turning from our sin does save us from eternal death, so of course it means eternal death..

But seems you have chosen to toss simple logic so you can see what you want to see.

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Turning from deadly sin that would cause God to have to take us from this world is what we would save a brother from if we helped him/her to repent. NOTHING to do with eternal anything!

dad said:

Where does it say any other sort of death??? Paul spelled it out that some need to have their bodies die so their spirits could live.

The death that is a judgment from God before their time is what is avoided. Not death itself, because all die. Some just have to go early.
Turning from deadly sin that would cause God to have to take us from this world is what we would save a brother from if we helped him/her to repent. NOTHING to do with eternal anything!

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I explained how it meant eternal death, not the physical death you made up. IOW I was very clear on my reasoning, just as the bible was clear.

I think you're too far gone for me to help you. Some people just want to be free to sin so badly they lose all sense of logic. I have to think it's like the Homosexuals that God gives reprobate minds to, he puts it in their mind what they are doing is perfectly fine because they refuse to do as God tells them. To be completely honest, I think he does that because to allow them to think it's right, means they never have good reason to stop, meaning they are most likely done for...at least as I understand it.

I'm very sorry to see that happen to anyone.

Kenny'sID said:

Believe this:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

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The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they have obtained salvation, but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally from a heart that is unsaved, as we also saw in Romans 2:6-10. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

Answer this please: Are you saying believing in Jesus does not entail believing what he says to do?

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Believing in Jesus unto salvation entails having faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Believers believe in what Jesus says to do, yet there is a difference between doing what Jesus says to do "in order to become saved" and doing what Jesus says to do "after we have been saved through faith." I've heard certain individuals (who teach salvation by faith and works and peddle sinless perfection) say that believing in Jesus unto salvation means believing and obeying everything He says and commands. Such individuals believe in their works/performance/achievements for salvation and not in Christ alone.

Are some of you even listening to yourselves?

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Are you listening to yourself?

Gods not mad said:

but you still did not personally answer my questions. let us agree that when you do answer the questions the holy spirit will be witness to your answers. there not that hard i just want to see how perfect you are that's all.

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Right, you are not listening. The forum rules state this:

• "When you disagree, address the context of the post and not the poster."

Forum rules source:
Statement of Purpose - Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose

You are attempting to make the topic about me personally.

Furthermore, it is written,


So even if it was by forum rules, I do not confide in anyone who does not believe the Bible the way I do.

Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not). It is something you have to accept whether you like it or not.

Jesus asks the question, "when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?"
(See Luke 18:8).

For in the last days many shall have a form of godliness but they will deny the power thereof
(See 2 Timothy 3:1-9).

So you are either going to explain the verses I have put forth (according to the forum rules), or you are going to remain silent on those verses. The choice is yours. But asking accusatory questions of your fellow brethren personally is not mutually edifying to the building up of the body of fellow believers in Jesus Christ. The spiritual standard is God's Word the Bible and not in any one person's life.

May God's goodness be upon you.

dad said:

I see, so Peter who smote the guy's ear off was not saved to begin with. OK.

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Peter walked with Jesus for three years, but still had his carnal flesh nature from Adam. It wasn't until after Jesus rose from the dead that in John 20 Jesus blew out of his mouth the Spirit into the mouths of the disciples, making them born again of the Spirit of Christ. There are many denominations that do not have the Spirit, but only know about Jesus, but try to follow Him with their carnal flesh. To receive the Spirit you must first repent of all sin. My own testimony is that I believed in Jesus for the first 30 years of my life, but it wasn't until I repented that I was given the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and my life changed overnight. Where before I couldn't stop sinning; now I hated what God hated and loved what God loved and was dead to sin. Also, from then on I had the signs of Mark 16:16-18, and 6 of the 9 gifts of the Spirit of 1 Corinthians 12. I'm not saying this to boast, except to say that the scriptures are as true for us today, as they were in the 1st century.

dad said:

We can guess at motives, but Peter did not turn the other cheek to say the least.

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It's not about guessing. Jesus tells us Peter's motive by His saying that He could have called down a ton of angels and by rebuking Peter for his act of violence (Which was contrary to His teachings of non-violence for us believers under the New Covenant while living out our faith). Jesus said he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. So that is not about anger, but it is about a teaching about that if a person lives by the way of violence, chances are they are going to die by violence. Jesus was teaching a better way. Turn the other cheek. Pray and do good towards your enemies or those who despitefully use you. Jesus's teachings were radically different. Peter was a bit of a slow learner. There is nothing here about anger. Jesus did not talk about Peter's rage or anger. They were going to take Jesus, and Peter wanted to stop that by attacking the guard.

Jason0047 said:

I think in some rare cases, if a believer makes light of sin, the Lord can most certainly judge them to destruction for behaving wrongfully. The Lord knows their heart and future free will choices. A person appointed themselves to their own destruction.

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You said:

Since the bible spells out that men can die for some sins, obviously this is the case.

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So you believe that a born again saved believer can turn back and or fall into grievous sin and die spiritually? If so, this does fit the many verses in the Bible.

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:


Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:


For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Jason0047 said:

Oh, and I don’t believe in eternal torment. I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the belief that hell is a very real place, but after the Judgement, the wicked will eventually be destroyed or annihilated in the Lake of Fire. For God is not unjust.

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You said:

I see.

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Well, I am not convinced you understand my position on Dualistic Conditional Immortality. To check out my many points with Scripture (and in explaining the so called Eternal Torment proof texts), you can see my thread on this topic here:

The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell

You said:

Not only am I reading it correctly but in unison with the rest of the bible.

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Then you need to explain the verses I put forth.
Nowhere does the Bible teach a sin and still be saved type gospel.
Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality.
For how do you view Jude 1:4 in what it says?
What about 2 Timothy 3:1-9?
It says that there will be those who have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof.
This means they are "semi-holy" and they are denying the working of God's power in their life to live holy.
Peter talks about false prophets who cannot cease from sin (See 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14).
The idea goes like this. If the false prophets are categorized as "not ceasing from sin" then that means that this is something that we should not be like, as well. For Peter is identifying something bad in these false prophets so that we can recognize them. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Peter says in 1 Peter 4:1-2 that a believer can cease from sin and that we should live the rest of our time not to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God. Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works in Titus 1:16. John says that if you hate your brother, you are a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See 1 John 3:15). I fail to see how this verse works with Eternal Security (OSAS) or a Belief Alone (Non OSAS) type belief.
I mean stop and think about it. Is there really a difference in justifying grievous one sin (like say lying, lusting, hate) vs. many?

Side Note:

Please take note that I am talking about overcoming grievous sin, and I am not talking about minor infractions or faults of character. For not all sin is the same (See 1 John 5:16-17) (Psalms 19:12) (1 Peter 3:21).

Jason0047 said:

It's not about guessing. Jesus tells us Peter's motive by His saying that He could have called down a ton of angels and by rebuking Peter for his act of violence (Which was contrary to His teachings of non-violence for us believers under the New Covenant while living out our faith). Jesus said he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. So that is not about anger, but it is about a teaching about that if a person lives by the way of violence, chances are they are going to die by violence. Jesus was teaching a better way. Turn the other cheek. Pray and do good towards your enemies or those who despitefully use you. Jesus's teachings were radically different. Peter was a bit of a slow learner. There is nothing here about anger. Jesus did not talk about Peter's rage or anger. They were going to take Jesus, and Peter wanted to stop that by attacking the guard.




So you believe that a born again saved believer can turn back and or fall into grievous sin and die spiritually? If so, this does fit the many verses in the Bible.

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)​

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).




Well, I am not convinced you understand my position on Dualistic Conditional Immortality. To check out my many points with Scripture (and in explaining the so called Eternal Torment proof texts), you can see my thread on this topic here:

The Dualistic Conditional Immortality View of Hell



Then you need to explain the verses I put forth.
Nowhere does the Bible teach a sin and still be saved type gospel.
Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality.
For how do you view Jude 1:4 in what it says?
What about 2 Timothy 3:1-9?
It says that there will be those who have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof.
This means they are "semi-holy" and they are denying the working of God's power in their life to live holy.
Peter talks about false prophets who cannot cease from sin (See 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14).
The idea goes like this. If the false prophets are categorized as "not ceasing from sin" then that means that this is something that we should not have, as well.
John says that if you hate your brother, you are a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See 1 John 3:15). I fail to see how this verse works with Eternal Security (OSAS) or a Belief Alone (Non OSAS) type belief.
I mean stop and think about it. Is there really a difference in justifying grievous one sin (like say lying, lusting, hate) vs. many?

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You are not seeing the spiritual reason for Peter smiting the guard. Read #233

1stcenturylady said:

Peter walked with Jesus for three years, but still had his carnal flesh nature from Adam. It wasn't until after Jesus rose from the dead that in John 20 Jesus blew out of his mouth the Spirit into the mouths of the disciples, making them born again of the Spirit of Christ. There are many denominations that do not have the Spirit, but only know about Jesus, but try to follow Him with their carnal flesh. To receive the Spirit you must first repent of all sin. My own testimony is that I believed in Jesus for the first 30 years of my life, but it wasn't until I repented that I was given the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and my life changed overnight. Where before I couldn't stop sinning; now I hated what God hated and loved what God loved and was dead to sin. Also, from then on I had the signs of Mark 16:16-18, and 6 of the 9 gifts of the Spirit of 1 Corinthians 12. I'm not saying this to boast, except to say that the scriptures are as true for us today, as they were in the 1st century.

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I believe the Spirit would guide them into all truth. I also believe that walking in the Spirit will help a believer to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Which is in accordance to Scripture).

But a believer can overcome sin by the power of Jesus, too.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

Otherwise it would have been a lie for Jesus to tell them to obey His commands when they could not have really done so. For Jesus said,

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

This was not a teaching after the cross, but before it.

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." (John 15:4).

Side Note:

Jesus did not say to Peter, "Hey Peter, it's not your fault you are reacting this way, I have not sent my Spirit upon you yet." No. Jesus did not say that. Jesus rebuked Peter in the fact that he was living by the sword, and in the fact that He could have protected Himself by calling down a bunch of angels (if He wanted to) and He did not need Peter's help in being protected because this was all a part of His plan in going to the cross.

dad said:

Because who says the book of life is a book of names of people saved by Jesus?

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Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 talk about those who worship the beast never even had their names written in the LAMB's book of life since the foundation of the world. This means that GOD knew who these individuals were from the very beginning and they never had salvation ever. Jesus did not pay the price for their sins because they were never in His book of life. Everyone else did have their name written in the LAMB's book of life since the foundation of the world. For they would be saved as a baby (By Christ's sacrifice). It is only when they would fall into a life of sin that they would be separated from the Lord (i.e. When they received the knowledge of good and evil). This is why they need to be born again later so as to be restored back to God. This is a picture of the Parable of the Prodigal Son. A person goes prodigal from the time of their infancy, and they can come back to the Everlasting Father (Jesus) by seeking forgiveness with Him and in becoming a servant to Him. Note: Jesus is our everlasting Father because in the bodily resurrection, the saints will be resurrected after the likeness of Jesus. We will be His Father in a physical or genetic level in the resurrection.

His student said:

“He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — IF indeed you continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” Colossians 1:22-23

BCsenior says that this says that if we don’t continue in the faith God will take our salvation away

“It is this Good News that saves you, IF you continue to believe the message I told you” 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

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1 Corinthians 15:1-2 is not teaching us the gospel's role or purpose for our life. I would recommend that if you want to know the end goal or purpose for the gospel in your life, please re-read Ephesians 5:25-27 several times in prayer. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 is merely a definition of the gospel. As for Colossians 1:22-23: Well, I wouldn't have exactly used Colossians 1:22-23, but it does show that you were alienated by wicked works as an unbeliever. But many wrongfully think that after they become a believer that their wicked works will no longer separate them God. This is simply not true.

The Bible teaches that serious sin is separation from GOD for all,

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

His student said:

BCsenior says that this says that those who don’t continue to believe we lose their salvation.

“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.” 2 Timothy 2:12

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Actually, the Bible says this, and it means what it says.
It is true that if we endure we shall also reign with Him.
In your view you do not think you have to endure (Which runs contrary to this verse).

The verse also says that if we deny Him, he will deny us.
How can we be saved if we turn back and deny Him?

Jesus Himself said, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 10:33).

"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." (Luke 9:26).

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." (Acts of the Apostles 14:22).

The Bible teaches that we need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.

His student said:

BCsenior says that this says that if we don’t endure we will lose our salvation.

“… follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s promises because of their faith and endurance.” Hebrews 6:11-12

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Again, BCsenior did not say this. The Bible says this.

11 "And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:11-12).

Verse 12 is particularly note worthy here. We are told that THROUGH faith we inherit the promises. James says in James 2:18 that he will show you his faith by his works. For faith without works is dead (James 2:18). For even the demons believe and tremble... James says. So we need a faith that works, otherwise it is not a genuine faith. This is the kind of faith that we need to have in order to inherit the promises. For the Bible breathes as a cohesive whole. We need to have faith (a true faith that works) to inherit the promises. Well, that is if you believe verse 12 (and what James says). For it is...


For how else would you interpret this verse as not saying that?