My career and the abortion issue

FireDragon76 · Apr 8, 2019

samwise gamgee said:
Actually we do live in a theocracy. A theocracy is a government ruled by God and God is the ruler of the entire universe. We may live in a country that doesn't acknowledge his rule but that fact doesn't exempt us from it.

Jesus said give to Caesar, that which is Caesar's. He did not support theocracy.

samwise gamgee · Apr 9, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Jesus said give to Caesar, that which is Caesar's. He did not support theocracy.

You only quoted half of what he said. He said give to Caesar what is his and give to God what is his. Even Caesar is subject to God's authority.

FireDragon76 · Apr 9, 2019

samwise gamgee said:
You only quoted half of what he said. He said give to Caesar what is his and give to God what is his. Even Caesar is subject to God's authority.

But Jesus distinguishes between our civil duties and our duties to God, and he doesn't necessarily see an inherent conflict between the two.

samwise gamgee · Apr 9, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
But Jesus distinguishes between our civil duties and our duties to God, and he doesn't necessarily see an inherent conflict between the two.

If you lived in a country like North Korea you would see a conflict between them.

Sketcher · Apr 9, 2019

samwise gamgee said:
If you lived in a country like North Korea you would see a conflict between them.

North Korea institutes worship of their Dear Leader. In a sense, it is a theocracy.

SkyWriting · Apr 12, 2019

Searching_for_God said:
I am a young woman who is currently in college studying social work and currently, I am converting to Catholicism. It is time for me to do my interviews so I can get into my internship starting next semester, and my interviews are scheduled for next week. Before going into my interviews, however, I decided to meet with my academic advisor to talk about a struggle that was going on inside of me ever since I became pro-life.

I met with my academic advisor today and we sat down to talk about what was the matter. I was a bit scared to talk with her about it, but in a previous meeting we had, she had disclosed to me that she was a woman of faith herself, so I thought it might be alright for me to talk with her regarding this situation. I told her that I was concerned about possibly being made to refer people for abortive services during my internship, and her reaction kind of shocked me. It didn't surprise me too much, but it shocked me all the same. Basically, she furrowed her eyebrows at me and asked if I thought social work was right for me, to which I answered emphatically, "Yes, I know that this field is right for me." She then proceeded to ask me if I had read the social work code of ethics. For those who are unaware, these are the code of ethics: Code of Ethics: English

The ones that stood out to my academic advisor the most were the "Commitment to Clients" and the "Self-Determination" aspects of the code of ethics. She thinks that my not referring folks to abortive services when they are seeking it would be impeding on their rights and going against the code of ethics. There were then some other points brought up during our talk regarding these points, including:

I probably wouldn't encounter someone asking me about abortive services during my internship anyways, given the settings I am working in.

If they did, I would likely direct them to speak with a more qualified professional, such as their own doctor, on the matter.

Another thing that ended up coming up during our talk was the Bible and Jesus' teachings within it. My academic advisor asked me how Jesus treated people who had different beliefs from his own, and I answered, "He treated them with love and kindness. He also corrected them and didn't just let them continue to do whatever wrong thing that they were doing, but he did so in a way that did not impede on others' free-will. They were free to choose to listen or not." I then continued on to say that, if I were to be in a position where someone was asking for abortive services, I wouldn't be condemning them, discriminating against them, or telling them that they would "go to hell" if they had an abortion. That's not what Jesus would want, and I would never judge a woman who had an abortion. That isn't my job, and besides, I know that most women who get abortions do it because they feel trapped. It wouldn't be right of me to hate them or treat them unkindly, nor would I want to.

She also told me that sin is sin and it sounds inconsistent to her that I would not help someone who wanted an abortion, but not against someone who is gay or transgender, a satanist, etc. Again, I told her that I would not discriminate against someone who wanted an abortion, and I assured her that I would also not discriminate against someone who was gay, transgender, of a different religion, or even a murderer in my line of practice. I see everyone as having the right to do what they want with their own bodies and whatever they want in their own lives, so long as it does not impede on the rights of others. You want a tattoo? I don't care. You want to do something else I don't necessarily agree with? Fine. My problem is not with people doing things that are against the Bible (so long as it does not harm others). My problem is with others possibly forcing me to provide referrals to abortive services when it is considered a mortal sin within Catholicism. When you really think about it, wouldn't that impede on MY right to self-determination?

Anyways, there was more that we discussed within this conversation, but it's all floating around my head right now. In the end, though, my academic advisor informed me that, if I were to bring up this refusal to refer others to abortive services in my practice, I would likely be told that doesn't line up with the social work code of ethics and I would possibly not be accepted by either of the agencies that I was referred to for an internship. So, unless they ask about it in my interview, I won't bring it up. If they do end up asking, however, I will answer honestly, but follow it up by explaining myself like I had done today.

And before I ended my talk with her, I also explained to her that my morality had vastly changed from the time that I entered this major to now. This big change occurred within the past few months, and then it clicked in her head that my faith is still fresh and immature (that last word was not the word she used, but that is what she meant). She recommended that I speak with a Licensed Clinical Social Worker on campus who is a pastor and has dealt with many people who have beliefs that he does not agree with as a man of faith. She also said that I might want to talk to my church's priest so that I could get more insight into what might be right for me to do in this situation since I might not be educated enough in my faith right now or something (because, again, I'm still new to this). Personally, I think I'm fine when it comes to my moral beliefs right now, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to talk to either of them. So I'm going to try to organize a talk with both of them at separate times pretty soon.

When I left my academic advisor's office, I felt a little bit sad on the inside and wondered if I might cry. I didn't, though, and in the end, I thanked Jesus for giving me the strength today to talk to my advisor, the words with which to explain myself, and the courage to stand my ground even when I was challenged. I have a hard time standing my ground against someone of a higher authority, so this is pretty big for me. I just pray that, throughout my career, I continue to be strong and not let the world bully me into doing things that do not adhere to the teachings of God.

And that's the story of what's happening in my world right now. What are your thoughts?

God says to obey local laws on this. So do what God says.
Scripture has no teaching supporting civil disobedience.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

samwise gamgee · Apr 13, 2019

SkyWriting said:
God says to obey local laws on this. So do what God says.
Scripture has no teaching supporting civil disobedience.

I think you overlooked this.

And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men."
Acts 5:27-29 ESV

SkyWriting · Apr 13, 2019

samwise gamgee said:
I think you overlooked this.

And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men."
Acts 5:27-29 ESV

"Don't follow the orders of High priests and the church counsel if they conflict with the religion God has written in your heart."

I agree with that passage too.

I am not including the church council as having any local authority as a government.
My view is that authority and government in scripture refers to secular matters unless otherwise specified.

SkyWriting · Apr 13, 2019

Searching_for_God said:
I just pray that, throughout my career, I continue to be strong and not let the world bully me into doing things that do not adhere to the teachings of God. And that's the story of what's happening in my world right now. What are your thoughts?

God says to submit to local government laws, as they are His will.

Psalms 22:27
27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S
And He rules over the nations.

samwise gamgee · Apr 13, 2019

SkyWriting said:
I am not including the church council as having any local authority as a government.

But under Roman rule they did have such authority. They were able to arrest and imprison the apostles for their preaching.

I have a question for you. Do you think a Christian who lived in Germany while Hitler was in power should have gone along with his attempts to exterminate the Jews?

Have you ever read a book called The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom? It describe the experiences of a Christian family living in Holland during the Nazi occupation. They were involved with the Dutch underground and helped Jews escape from the country. Were they disobeying God in doing this?

SkyWriting · Apr 13, 2019

samwise gamgee said:
But under Roman rule they did have such authority. They were able to arrest and imprison the apostles for their preaching.

I have a question for you. Do you think a Christian who lived in Germany while Hitler was in power should have gone along with his attempts to exterminate the Jews?

Have you ever read a book called The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom? It describe the experiences of a Christian family living in Holland during the Nazi occupation. They were involved with the Dutch underground and helped Jews escape from the country. Were they disobeying God in doing this?

Jesus was an exterminated Jew as well. Let's get His input:

Matthew 26:52-54
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

Luke 23:34
And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

John 19:11
Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me if it were not given to you from above.

GodLovesCats · Apr 13, 2019

JackRT said:
Everyone I know is pro-life including those, like myself, who favour abortion remaining legal. I know of no-one who is pro-abortion. I understand the dilemma you face but, as long as abortion remains a legal medical procedure, you can advise against abortion and offer alternatives but, in the end you are obligated to give the referral if the client insists. As Christians we are frequently faced with such competing moral choices.

This is like a veterinarian discouraging declawing. Obviously amputating 1/3 of each front toe is not like a fetus being murdered, but it is the same concept. Mosdt vets oppose declawing for many reasons. Denver and at least one city in California ban it. But there will always be cat lovers who insist on having it done. I am sure thousands of vets are forced to discourage declawing cats to clients who want to have it done on theirs. I don't know about my vet but there are some that outright refuse to cut 10 toes off their patients.

On the abortion issue specifically, you can tell pregnant clients who want to do it the psychological risks - feeling like murderers, wishing they had chosen to give up the baby for adoption, etc. Many women of all faiths regret the decision forever.

HoneyBee · Apr 13, 2019

I'm honestly too exhausted to answer any of the other comments in this thread, but I wanted to respond to this one in particular.

SkyWriting said:
God says to obey local laws on this. So do what God says.
Scripture has no teaching supporting civil disobedience.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

With all due respect, I can't stand behind the claim that God would want me to follow the law when it comes to abortion. It is the taking of a human life, which violates the sixth commandment, "Thous shalt not kill." And honestly, putting the laws of the land over the laws of God sounds backwards to me and implies that man's law overrides God's word. If that were the case, then why can't anything go? It's legal, so we can do anything we want and just ignore what God says.

Furthermore, let's put it in this context: Say that they made it legal tomorrow that you could kill kids up to five years old if you decided you didn't want them anymore and they had places where you could take your kid to get murdered. A client comes to you saying that they want a referral to this place to have their child killed. Would you do it simply because the agency or law wants you to make that referral? Or, would you stand your ground and not do so?

Archivist · Apr 14, 2019

Searching_for_God said:
Furthermore, let's put it in this context: Say that they made it legal tomorrow that you could kill kids up to five years old if you decided you didn't want them anymore and they had places where you could take your kid to get murdered. A client comes to you saying that they want a referral to this place to have their child killed. Would you do it simply because the agency or law wants you to make that referral? Or, would you stand your ground and not do so?

Except that isn’t going to happen.

To the OP, I am friends with several social workers. Some of them work for Christian agencies, I doubt that any of them would be promoting or advising abortion. Several work for government agencies; they are bound to follow the law. I don’t think you would have any difficulty finding a position where you would never need to promote or advise in favor of an abortion.

blackribbon · Apr 15, 2019

Searching_for_God said:
I am a young woman who is currently in college studying social work and currently, I am converting to Catholicism. It is time for me to do my interviews so I can get into my internship starting next semester, and my interviews are scheduled for next week. Before going into my interviews, however, I decided to meet with my academic advisor to talk about a struggle that was going on inside of me ever since I became pro-life.

I met with my academic advisor today and we sat down to talk about what was the matter. I was a bit scared to talk with her about it, but in a previous meeting we had, she had disclosed to me that she was a woman of faith herself, so I thought it might be alright for me to talk with her regarding this situation. I told her that I was concerned about possibly being made to refer people for abortive services during my internship, and her reaction kind of shocked me. It didn't surprise me too much, but it shocked me all the same. Basically, she furrowed her eyebrows at me and asked if I thought social work was right for me, to which I answered emphatically, "Yes, I know that this field is right for me." She then proceeded to ask me if I had read the social work code of ethics. For those who are unaware, these are the code of ethics: Code of Ethics: English

The ones that stood out to my academic advisor the most were the "Commitment to Clients" and the "Self-Determination" aspects of the code of ethics. She thinks that my not referring folks to abortive services when they are seeking it would be impeding on their rights and going against the code of ethics. There were then some other points brought up during our talk regarding these points, including:

I probably wouldn't encounter someone asking me about abortive services during my internship anyways, given the settings I am working in.

If they did, I would likely direct them to speak with a more qualified professional, such as their own doctor, on the matter.

Another thing that ended up coming up during our talk was the Bible and Jesus' teachings within it. My academic advisor asked me how Jesus treated people who had different beliefs from his own, and I answered, "He treated them with love and kindness. He also corrected them and didn't just let them continue to do whatever wrong thing that they were doing, but he did so in a way that did not impede on others' free-will. They were free to choose to listen or not." I then continued on to say that, if I were to be in a position where someone was asking for abortive services, I wouldn't be condemning them, discriminating against them, or telling them that they would "go to hell" if they had an abortion. That's not what Jesus would want, and I would never judge a woman who had an abortion. That isn't my job, and besides, I know that most women who get abortions do it because they feel trapped. It wouldn't be right of me to hate them or treat them unkindly, nor would I want to.

She also told me that sin is sin and it sounds inconsistent to her that I would not help someone who wanted an abortion, but not against someone who is gay or transgender, a satanist, etc. Again, I told her that I would not discriminate against someone who wanted an abortion, and I assured her that I would also not discriminate against someone who was gay, transgender, of a different religion, or even a murderer in my line of practice. I see everyone as having the right to do what they want with their own bodies and whatever they want in their own lives, so long as it does not impede on the rights of others. You want a tattoo? I don't care. You want to do something else I don't necessarily agree with? Fine. My problem is not with people doing things that are against the Bible (so long as it does not harm others). My problem is with others possibly forcing me to provide referrals to abortive services when it is considered a mortal sin within Catholicism. When you really think about it, wouldn't that impede on MY right to self-determination?

Anyways, there was more that we discussed within this conversation, but it's all floating around my head right now. In the end, though, my academic advisor informed me that, if I were to bring up this refusal to refer others to abortive services in my practice, I would likely be told that doesn't line up with the social work code of ethics and I would possibly not be accepted by either of the agencies that I was referred to for an internship. So, unless they ask about it in my interview, I won't bring it up. If they do end up asking, however, I will answer honestly, but follow it up by explaining myself like I had done today.

And before I ended my talk with her, I also explained to her that my morality had vastly changed from the time that I entered this major to now. This big change occurred within the past few months, and then it clicked in her head that my faith is still fresh and immature (that last word was not the word she used, but that is what she meant). She recommended that I speak with a Licensed Clinical Social Worker on campus who is a pastor and has dealt with many people who have beliefs that he does not agree with as a man of faith. She also said that I might want to talk to my church's priest so that I could get more insight into what might be right for me to do in this situation since I might not be educated enough in my faith right now or something (because, again, I'm still new to this). Personally, I think I'm fine when it comes to my moral beliefs right now, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to talk to either of them. So I'm going to try to organize a talk with both of them at separate times pretty soon.

When I left my academic advisor's office, I felt a little bit sad on the inside and wondered if I might cry. I didn't, though, and in the end, I thanked Jesus for giving me the strength today to talk to my advisor, the words with which to explain myself, and the courage to stand my ground even when I was challenged. I have a hard time standing my ground against someone of a higher authority, so this is pretty big for me. I just pray that, throughout my career, I continue to be strong and not let the world bully me into doing things that do not adhere to the teachings of God.

And that's the story of what's happening in my world right now. What are your thoughts?

I am a nurse. We have similar ethics and sometimes they are hard. How you deal with a situation where a person is requesting information about abortions that you be sure also take the time to understand why the client wants an abortion (can't afford to raise them, scare of motherhood, addiction issues, etc) and be sure that you have plenty of literature and information about other options ranging from adoption to family services that will allow her to raise the baby to getting in a rehab treatment designed for pregnant women. At that point the decision become her choice, not yours. During an internship, you may not have the option of where you work. You sometimes have to find your way to the ends without completely alienating your personal belief system. Providing information that is requested is not the same as "pushing" or supporting abortion. It is meeting a client's request. But after you give her the info she asks for, you can also suggest alternate options since often these women do not believe they really have options. And this can also include information about birth control options (also against your belief as a Catholic) but it provides for the prevention of an additional abortion in the future.

However, after you are licensed, you have every right to choice to work for an organization that doesn't support abortion such as a Catholic one. I have applied for positions in Catholic hospitals that make it clear, they do not even consider abortion an option and will not perform them in their hospitals or clinics. They do employ people of all faiths including practicing Muslims, however those employees have agreed that with acceptance of following Catholic standards that the hospital is founded on and although, I am not Catholic, I have always have appreciated the 7am Christian prayer that is broadcast throughout the hospitals.

I personally work for a non-religious based hospital. I have cared for women who have had abortions and I feel my responsibility is to provide Christian love for these women who have found themselves in a place where they believed that abortion was their only option. They usually need a lot of love and understanding and I get them after the fact. I also have cared for women suffering as they opt to give up their precious baby for adoption in a society that looks down on these women as being "bad mothers". They do so always for the reason that they can't imagine themselves providing the care the babies need and they do it out of love. It is also extremely hard to go back to an empty room after giving birth. I can only imagine what nightmares a young woman has after having an abortion.

The real answer is to love the woman...where she is...and provide a balance of healthy options without judging her. God will do a good enough job of that. And pray... pray daily for these women who do walk out of your office with this information...that God will provide a way for this woman and little baby.

blackribbon · Apr 15, 2019

Archivist said:
I don’t think you would have any difficulty finding a position where you would never need to promote or advise in favor of an abortion.

But if people like us who know the horrors of abortion aren't in the secular jobs, how will majority of women EVER hear that there are option to abortion when they find them believing that this is the only option they have. Most women do not really want to kill their baby...at best, they fight to never believe that this life moving inside of them isn't really a live baby.

Archivist · Apr 15, 2019

blackribbon said:
But if people like us who know the horrors of abortion aren't in the secular jobs, how will majority of women EVER hear that there are option to abortion when they find them believing that this is the only option they have. Most women do not really want to kill their baby...at best, they fight to never believe that this life moving inside of them isn't really a live baby.

And, again, if you are working for a Christian counseling agency you would undoubtably be free to say that.

blackribbon · Apr 15, 2019

Archivist said:
And, again, if you are working for a Christian counseling agency you would undoubtably be free to say that.

And isn't that like spreading the good news of Jesus to the Christians already sitting in church. If you want to make a difference, you are going to have to walk out of the church and find them where they lay and simply love them. Even the Christians who are believe mistakenly that abortions are their only option are not going to go to the Christian counseling agency. And regardless of how you feel about abortion, you are commanded to love the mothers of these unwanted babies.

Archivist · Apr 15, 2019

blackribbon said:
And isn't that like spreading the good news of Jesus to the Christians already sitting in church. If you want to make a difference, you are going to have to walk out of the church and find them where they lay and simply love them. Even the Christians who are believe mistakenly that abortions are their only option are not going to go to the Christian counseling agency. And regardless of how you feel about abortion, you are commanded to love the mothers of these unwanted babies.

I do t know why you are arguing with me. In simply pointing out that you have to follow the requirements of your job. If you work for a Christian agency this wouldn’t be an issue.

blackribbon · Apr 15, 2019

Archivist said:
I do t know why you are arguing with me. In simply pointing out that you have to follow the requirements of your job. If you work for a Christian agency this wouldn’t be an issue.

I am challenging her to think beyond her own comfort zone and make a difference in an issue that obviously means so much to her. I don't believe in encouraging other Christians to always stay in their safe comfortable places.

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