Is purpose/meaning in your life necessary?

Presbyterian Continuist

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How do you know?
Well, It doesn't matter whether I know it or not. The fact is that you know that death will be the end of your existence. There will be no more "you", because that is what you believe and you will maintain that belief whatever anyone else will say.

Actually, it would be quite instructive if you googled the last words of famous atheists to find out what they said just before they died. Somehow I don't think they were going to enjoy the death they were going to have.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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GrowingSmaller

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I'm more neo-Kantian. Kant asked "How is experience possible?" and said that space and time, number, causation etc. were supplied by the mind to make everyday experience and thought what they are. He called these the transcendental forms of experience and of reason.

So, what psychological elements does purpose require? What are the transcendental forms of 'purposivity'?

Id say a minimal amount of projectivity and future mindedness is one. Ability to plan is another. Modelling the world is a third, because insofar as we plan we have expectations of outcomes. A sense of choice and deliberation between alternative future outcomes is another, along with a sense of preferability - something like purposive rationality. And finally a will to choose and act on these elements is needed.

Other things like "having babies" or "making money" or "washing the car" are not essential to human purposivity, you can take or leave. They don't belong to the essence or eidos*.

*Eidetic reduction | philosophy

OTOH the transcendental forms are essential, necessary. Take 'em away, and meainingfulness disappears.
 
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Kylie

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Time will tell...

If you want to leave your mark on the world, then leave it. Do something that will improve your world. Paint a picture that is important to you and donate it to your local library. Create art. Do something to leave a part of yourself behind.
 
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Kylie

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I had a friend of the family who was in the Western Desert in World War 2, fighting the Germans. He said there were plenty of atheists in his company of fellow soldiers. He said that when the air raids came over, or the shells started falling, they would jump into the slit trenches and pray for all their worth, "O God please protect me. I don't want to die!"

Experience wins over an argument every time.

Anecdote is not proof. Your story may be true, but that doesn't mean that every single atheist will become a Christian in battle. There are several groups of atheists in the military. Here's one of them. Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers Plenty of atheists remain atheists in battle.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Anecdote is not proof. Your story may be true, but that doesn't mean that every single atheist will become a Christian in battle. There are several groups of atheists in the military. Here's one of them. Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers Plenty of atheists remain atheists in battle.
I don't think I clearly indicated that atheists would permanently become Christians during a war when they come under enemy fire. The family friend did not say that his fellows soldiers were actually atheists. What he implied, that people who never really thought about God in their normal lives, when sheltering from enemy strafing and bombs tended to pray to God for protection. Which God they were praying to is open to question.
 
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quatona

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I don't think I clearly indicated that atheists would permanently become Christians during a war when they come under enemy fire. The family friend did not say that his fellows soldiers were actually atheists. What he implied, that people who never really thought about God in their normal lives, when sheltering from enemy strafing and bombs tended to pray to God for protection. Which God they were praying to is open to question.
Well, people do a lot of stuff when being under emotional stress.
 
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zippy2006

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Why get read a good book? Why enjoy a good meal? Why form relationships, get married, or even have children, if when you die you can’t take any of that with you, or a million years from now it will be forgotten? We do those things because it doesn’t matter if those things will be remembered a million years from now; we do it because we enjoy those things today! It isn’t the destination but the journey that counts.

"The end is first in the order of intention": humans act on a means-to-ends basis, and the ultimate ends or goals are the fundamental principles that guide their lives. The more exalted the end, the more meaningful and fulfilling the means. If someone's ultimate end is pleasure they will inevitably lead a relatively shallow and unfulfilled life. Indeed, any finite end found in our fallen state--things that are good in themselves--are not ultimately fulfilling. This is why people search for God or transcendent realities, because they have desires that surpass the possibilities of what can be accomplished on their own. Of course one can squelch that desire for God and unconditioned happiness, but to squelch such a fundamental and high principle will have a domino effect on every means-based action in life.

The journey makes no sense apart from the destination, and it is precisely the glimpses and foretastes of the destination that make the journey bearable and even at times enjoyable.

There is a vital objection to the advice merely to grin and bear it. The objection is that if you merely bear it, you do not grin. Greek heroes do not grin: but gargoyles do--because they are Christian. -Chesterton​
 
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Nithavela

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"The end is first in the order of intention": humans act on a means-to-ends basis, and the ultimate ends or goals are the fundamental principles that guide their lives.
I doubt that this is true.
 
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Ken-1122

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"The end is first in the order of intention": humans act on a means-to-ends basis,
Not when it comes to life. Nobody is born looking forward to the day they die, we look foreword to each stage in life.
The more exalted the end, the more meaningful and fulfilling the means. If someone's ultimate end is pleasure they will inevitably lead a relatively shallow and unfulfilled life.
You make the common mistake of assuming nobody finds pleasure in things that are constructive like helping others, or improving lives. Don’t assume pleasure equals selfishness, even if your religion teaches you to think that way.
Indeed, any finite end found in our fallen state--things that are good in themselves--are not ultimately fulfilling.
That might be the case for you, but you aren’t qualified to speak for everybody else. What is ultimately fulfilling is subjective; meaning it varies from person to person. So you aren’t qualified to tell me (or anybody else) what I find ultimately fulfilling.
This is why people search for God or transcendent realities, because they have desires that surpass the possibilities of what can be accomplished on their own.
Here I agree. There are many people who are unable to find worth, fulfillment, purpose, or meaning on their own and feel a need to look outside of themselves for these things. Not everybody is this way (myself included) but many people are.
Of course one can squelch that desire for God and unconditioned happiness, but to squelch such a fundamental and high principle will have a domino effect on every means-based action in life.
Not everybody who finds their concept of God, has an improved life as a result. History is full of examples of people whose lives have turned for the worse after believing they've found God.
The journey makes no sense apart from the destination,
That’s only for you, probably because you’ve invested your life in the destination. For me, my life is invested in the journey; the destination has no value for me.
and it is precisely the glimpses and foretastes of the destination that make the journey bearable and even at times enjoyable.
If your journey through life is that miserable because of your religion, it sounds like you might be better off with without it. Speaking for myself, when I was finally able to free myself from theistic chains, and enjoy life for what it is, though it was the most difficult thing I've ever done, it was definitely the best thing I could have ever done; my life is better because of it.
 
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Nithavela

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Good luck on your death bed, and best of luck in your reading comprehension. :wave:
That's not exactly a productive way of leaving a discussion. You basically say "you don't agree with me now? Well, you'll do once you're dying".
 
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Kylie

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I don't think I clearly indicated that atheists would permanently become Christians during a war when they come under enemy fire. The family friend did not say that his fellows soldiers were actually atheists. What he implied, that people who never really thought about God in their normal lives, when sheltering from enemy strafing and bombs tended to pray to God for protection. Which God they were praying to is open to question.

And I don't think I clearly indicated that despite your anecdote, there are lots of atheists in the military who do NOT resort to begging deities for help when under fire.

Actually, wait, I was quite clear about that.
 
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Ken-1122

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I don't think I clearly indicated that atheists would permanently become Christians during a war when they come under enemy fire. The family friend did not say that his fellows soldiers were actually atheists.
According to you they did...

I had a friend of the family who was in the Western Desert in World War 2, fighting the Germans. He said there were plenty of atheists in his company of fellow soldiers. He said that when the air raids came over, or the shells started falling, they would jump into the slit trenches and pray for all their worth, "O God please protect me. I don't want to die!"

Experience wins over an argument every time.

Those were your exact words.
 
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jayem

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I don't think we have a purpose unless we choose to make one for ourselves... unless the person is a slave; then his purpose in life is whatever his master demands of him.

This is the naturalist in me speaking. We do have one purpose--it's a biological one. And it's the same purpose of all cellular organisms. That's to reproduce--to get our DNA into the next generation, and increase the numbers of our species. Any other purpose--as you correctly note--is what we create for ourselves.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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According to you they did...

I had a friend of the family who was in the Western Desert in World War 2, fighting the Germans. He said there were plenty of atheists in his company of fellow soldiers. He said that when the air raids came over, or the shells started falling, they would jump into the slit trenches and pray for all their worth, "O God please protect me. I don't want to die!"

Experience wins over an argument every time.

Those were your exact words.
Granted. But he was there and related what he saw in his area. I guess the only way to really test the reactions of people would be for them and us to find ourselves in a war zone with shells and bullets flying all around us. Talk is cheap when we are safe and living in peace.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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This is the naturalist in me speaking. We do have one purpose--it's a biological one. And it's the same purpose of all cellular organisms. That's to reproduce--to get our DNA into the next generation, and increase the numbers of our species. Any other purpose--as you correctly note--is what we create for ourselves.
The actual fact is the death is the elephant in the room. We try to ignore it, but we can't avoid it.
 
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Nithavela

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Granted. But he was there and related what he saw in his area. I guess the only way to really test the reactions of people would be for them and us to find ourselves in a war zone with shells and bullets flying all around us. Talk is cheap when we are safe and living in peace.
I think the same goes with many people professing faith and then abandoning that faiths principles as soon as the reward for doing so is high enough.

Many people fall from their deepest held convictions once the going gets tough or the temptations are too big.

Works both ways.
 
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