LDS Ephesians 2:1-10

mark kennedy said:

That's something for you to consider as a believer, not something you get to decide for someone else. Works cannot save you, nor are they a condition for salvation, anything else is a works righteousness. Apart from works is unambiguous, to add works to the merits of salvation is an affront to grace.

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:4-6)
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There is nothing indicating saved by works, it's exactly the opposite. What is even more important is what you consider works, describe these works required for your salvation for me. Does it start with water baptism?

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Here is a partial list:

Matt 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 7: 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matt 7: 21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matt. 25: 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

John 3: 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

John 9: 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 14: 15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Acts 10: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.



13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1 Cor. 3: 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

2 Cor. 5: 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Gal. 6: 4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Philip. 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Tim. 3: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 3: 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Heb. 13: 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

James 1: 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 4: 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 Pet. 1: 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

1 Jn. 3: 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Rev. 2: 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev. 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Edited to condense it a bit.

Peter1000 said:

When an person goes outside the will of God and does things that are so outrageously wrong, one way to protect them from themselves is to excommunicate them from their duties and drop them to their lowest level of humility, then the climb back upward can start to take place. Thousands have been excommunicated and then fought their way back into the the church by turning their life over to God and then listening and doing the will of God. They are lovingly received and given back their blessings of priesthood and temple attendance and take their seat among the people again.

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Lovingly? That's a joke. Mormons are excited when they suck people in. They are trained to welcome investigators and new members. They are also judgmental of their own. They will tell you what you should and shouldn't do to keep Sunday holy. Half of them will turn and walk away from ex-Mormons.

Peter1000 said:

Excommunication is a starting point of repentance and is a loving, and caring process that some need in order to get their lives in order again. It does not matter that you are an apostle, or a bishop, or a priest, or a regular ward member, the process is the same.

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This is not true. Members requesting to have their names removed are told to repent and informed of what they can and cannot do. There was no love to begin with. There were "soldiers" who followed orders to remain in good standing. There were those who believed that the leaders including the bishops spoke for God. Take this assignment that the bishop passed on straight from God. You don't tell God or the bishop, "No." You must get sealed in the temple because:

Doctrine and Covenants 132
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

We learn this from the writings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, found in both the 131st and 132nd sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. The Lord, speaking to the Prophet, said,
In the celestial glory there are three heavens, or degrees;
And in order to obtain the highest a man must enter into this order of the priesthood, [meaning the new and the everlasting covenant of marriage];
And if he does not he cannot obtain it.
He may enter into the others, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase. (D. & C. 131:1-4.)

Peter1000 said:

Actually, our members are saints, they are latter-day Saints. In this case, the word saints = a baptized member of the church. That is what it meant in the Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century. It was after the apostles died that this word saint became something else.

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I don't agree. Your church teaches blasphemous doctrine; therefore, it is not a place for the children of God.

edited for spelling correction

He is the way said:

Though we were dead in our sins the atonement (grace) can take away our sins.

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Don't alter God's words.

He is the way said:

Nor can we be saved without works.

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To Mormons, the atonement was insufficient to save.

Obedience is the basic law of heaven, and obedience to specific laws will result in specific blessings, culminating in the greatest blessing, as Elder Marion G. Romney explained: “The perfection upon which exaltation hangs, I repeat, is an individual matter. It is conditioned upon the observance of celestial laws as they apply to earth life. The Word of Wisdom is one of them, so also are chastity, tithing, observance of the Sabbath day, prayer, honesty, industry, love of God and fellow men, patience, kindness, charity, and all the rest of the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Each individual who observes one or more of these laws shall receive the blessings predicated thereon, and each Church member who will, with all the energy of his soul, diligently strive to live them all, shall receive the
blessings predicated upon such striving. Eternal life, the greatest gift of God, is that blessing, and it will follow the living of the gospel as the night the day, regardless of statistics or averages, or of what others think or say or do.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1956, pp. 15–16; see also Enrichment G in the Appendix.)
“Section 130, Items of Instruction,” Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (2002), 324
Section 130, Items of Instruction

Doctrine and Covenants 82
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

“There will be a wise and just God to sit in judgment on all men. … The wicked may prosper for a time, the rebellious may seem to profit by their transgressions, but the time is coming when, at the bar of justice, all men will be judged, ‘every man according to their works’ (Rev. 20:13). No one will ‘get by’ with anything. On that day no one will escape the penalty of his deeds, no one will fail to receive the blessings he has earned. Again, the parable of the sheep and the goats gives us assurance that there will be total justice.”
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 304–5

Mormonism teaches that God is obligated to give you what you earn. The atonement gives you the opportunity to earn blessings.

Phoebe Ann said:

Don't alter God's words.

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I didn't, that was something I copied from the person I replied to.

He is the way said:

I didn't, that was something I copied from the person I replied to.

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I quoted YOU. I did not quote someone else.

He is the way said:

1 And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Sin is death

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

You lived a worldly life ruled by Satan.

3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…

A life of lust, self indulgence and anger towards others.

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us,

But through the love and mercy of God...

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

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He is the way said:

Though we were dead in our sins the atonement (grace) can take away our sins.

6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Those who overcome the world will sit with Jesus on His throne (see Rev 3:21)

7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

So that we can be where He is: (see John 17:24)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The atonement (grace is a gift of God.

9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

We are not saved by works nor is that possible.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Nor can we be saved without works.

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Phoebe Ann said:

To Mormons, the atonement was insufficient to save.

Obedience is the basic law of heaven, and obedience to specific laws will result in specific blessings, culminating in the greatest blessing, as Elder Marion G. Romney explained: “The perfection upon which exaltation hangs, I repeat, is an individual matter. It is conditioned upon the observance of celestial laws as they apply to earth life. The Word of Wisdom is one of them, so also are chastity, tithing, observance of the Sabbath day, prayer, honesty, industry, love of God and fellow men, patience, kindness, charity, and all the rest of the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Each individual who observes one or more of these laws shall receive the blessings predicated thereon, and each Church member who will, with all the energy of his soul, diligently strive to live them all, shall receive the
blessings predicated upon such striving. Eternal life, the greatest gift of God, is that blessing, and it will follow the living of the gospel as the night the day, regardless of statistics or averages, or of what others think or say or do.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1956, pp. 15–16; see also Enrichment G in the Appendix.)
“Section 130, Items of Instruction,” Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (2002), 324
Section 130, Items of Instruction

Doctrine and Covenants 82
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

“There will be a wise and just God to sit in judgment on all men. … The wicked may prosper for a time, the rebellious may seem to profit by their transgressions, but the time is coming when, at the bar of justice, all men will be judged, ‘every man according to their works’ (Rev. 20:13). No one will ‘get by’ with anything. On that day no one will escape the penalty of his deeds, no one will fail to receive the blessings he has earned. Again, the parable of the sheep and the goats gives us assurance that there will be total justice.”
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 304–5

Mormonism teaches that God is obligated to give you what you earn. The atonement gives you the opportunity to earn blessings.

Click to expand...

Those who do not understand the Bible will not understand the importance of works when it comes to salvation. However the Bible makes it clear that works are necessary for salvation:

(New Testament | James 2:14 - 26)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Phoebe Ann said:

I quoted YOU. I did not quote someone else.

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You should look at post #31, the one I quoted or rather post #1

I was asked to use my own words to say what I thought these scriptures meant. Please try to stay up with the conversation.

Those who understand the Bible understand that the gift of God can't be earned by our righteousness or good works. We don't buy ourselves gifts of eternal life or righteousness.

Those who understand the Bible understand what Paul told us:

1 Corinthians 15
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Faith doesn't come from Satan or ourselves. Without it we are following Satan.

Luke 17
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

We give God the glory because without Him, we can do NOTHING.

He is the way said:

You should look at post #31, the one I quoted or rather post #1

I was asked to use my own words to say what I thought these scriptures meant. Please try to stay up with the conversation.

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I've read the thread and post 31. I quoted you and addressed what you said.

A long list of verses taken out of context, let's see what you have.

He is the way said:

Here is a partial list:

Matt 5:16) Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

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Good works glorify God, no connection to merit with regards to salvation.

Matt. 7: 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

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That's a rule of thumb, not a condition for salvation.

Matt 7: 21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:40)

Matt. 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

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In the immediate context:


Discipleship follows doctrine.

Matt. 25: 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

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If you love him, you will love his own.

John 3: 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

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In the immediate context:

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

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In the immediate context:
Have you forgotten he is talking to unbelievers here?

John 9: 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

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He is talking about himself, not what you must do to be saved.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

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Works follow faith, not the other way around.

John 14: 15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

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He gives them one commandment, to love one another. What commandments do you imagine he had in mind?

Acts 10: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

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That's Peter speaking of the inclusion of the Gentiles, in the immediate context:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God...(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

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From the immediate context, at the heart of the emphasis:


You are really going to try to defend a works righteousness from Paul's treatise on justification by grace through faith? Spend any time on the second half of Romans 3?

1 Cor. 3: 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

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From the immediate context:

2 Cor. 5: 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

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From the immediate context:


Clearly basing verse 10 on justification by grace through faith.

But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another...Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. (Gal. 6:4, 7)

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In Galatians Paul is refuting those who taught you must be circumcised in order to be saved, after Peter had refuted them at the Jerusalem Council. From the immediate context:

Based on the message of the cross, the hearing of the gospel, we are marked with the Holy Spirit of promise, thus being born again by grace through faith.

Eph. 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

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We are saved for good works not by them, from the immediate context:

Philip. 2: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

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From the immediate context:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (Phil. 2:5), see verses 6-11.

2 Tim. 3: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

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Doctrine proceeds discipleship, from the immediate context:

Titus 3: 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

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From the immediate context:


That's justification by grace through faith in no uncertain terms.

Heb. 13: 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

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From the immediate context after refuting a works righteousness for 12 chapters:

Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. (Heb. 10:9)

James 1: 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2: 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 4: 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

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James is talking about mistreating the body of Christ, from the immediate context:


He is writing to Jewish believers who make every effort to keep the law. They made one fatal mistake, they were mistreating the poor.

1 Pet. 1: 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

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From the immediate context:

1 Jn. 3: 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

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From the immediate context:


A message no unlike James wrote, in conclusion:

The Apostles always, and everyone of them, taught justification by grace through faith.

Rev. 2: 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev. 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev. 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Edited to condense it a bit.

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I'm going to skip the quotes from Revelations, that's final judgment not basic doctrine.

In short, a text without a context is a pretext.

Grace and peace,
Mark

He is the way said:

Those who do not understand the Bible will not understand the importance of works when it comes to salvation. However the Bible makes it clear that works are necessary for salvation:

(New Testament | James 2:14 - 26)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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Abraham when righteousness was imputed (credited, accounted, reckoned) to him by faith in Gen. 15:6 was still a young man, he was nearly a hundred years old when he put Isaac on that altar. That's after he laughed at the promise of a son, his wife laughed at the promise and God told them to call him Isaac, which means she laughed. This was after Abraham received the child of promise, but the entire time he believed just as Sarah did, the one who makes the promise is faithful, even though they struggled with the promise, they kept the faith. Abraham was willing to offer Isaac because God could raise him from the dead. James is talking about mistreating the poor, which was common in that culture and in ours as a matter of fact. James says this is unacceptable for people of faith, going so far as to ask, is this even saving faith. Paul deals with the same problem in 1 Cor. 11 since they mistreated the poor at their love feasts, telling them some of you are sick and some of you sleep.

Indeed faith without works is dead, but you are saved for good works not by them. What do you imagine are good works? Water baptism perhaps?

Yodas_Prodigy1 said:

The problem I see with LDS soteriology is this. You are using the wrong formula... The LDS formula is Works + Faith + Grace + Christ = Salvation... The Abrahamic view, the Paul view, the Christian Church view is Faith + Grace + Christ = Salvation + Works... True salvation produces Good Works... Salvation that requires works before you get saved means that you are earning your salvation in part...

Salvation is a gift of God not of works, so that no man may boast... If you work your way in to Heaven, you have room to boast...

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No we don't have any room to boast because:
(New Testament | Luke 17:7 - 10)

7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

It is our duty to keep the commandments and do the work God requires of us:

(New Testament | 1 John 3:17 - 18)

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

mark kennedy said:

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The Apostles always, and everyone of them, taught justification by grace through faith.

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I know that without the atonement (grace) there would be no salvation. Faith without works is also dead. Salvation requires grace, faith, and works. It is impossible to know God and not keep the commandments. The Bible is clear that everyone under grace need to keep the commandments:
(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 16)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:21 - 22)

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Anyone can love Jesus Christ by keeping the commandments.

Yodas_Prodigy1 said:

The problem I see with LDS soteriology is this. You are using the wrong formula... The LDS formula is Works + Faith + Grace + Christ = Salvation... The Abrahamic view, the Paul view, the Christian Church view is Faith + Grace + Christ = Salvation + Works... True salvation produces Good Works... Salvation that requires works before you get saved means that you are earning your salvation in part...

Salvation is a gift of God not of works, so that no man may boast... If you work your way in to Heaven, you have room to boast...

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Your equation is wrong because salvation does not come before works:
(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

He is the way said:

I know that without the atonement (grace) there would be no salvation. Faith without works is also dead. Salvation requires grace, faith, and works. It is impossible to know God and not keep the commandments. The Bible is clear that everyone under grace need to keep the commandments:
(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 16)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:21 - 22)

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Anyone can love Jesus Christ by keeping the commandments.

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There is no question that we are called to good works, but the means to that end is grace. Paul in Romans 6 asks two rhetorical questions,


If you could boil Romans down to a single theme, is the righteousness that is by faith. In this epistle Paul expounds two very important New Testament principles, sin and righteousness. He establishes that we are all sinners for 2 1/2 chapters, then breaks though with 2 words describing the cross in redemptive history, but now:

'Without the law' is the righteousness that is by faith, he gives the most important example in the Old Testament to the Jews, Abraham:

By the time Paul begins his discussion of discipleship, the 'way called holiness', to use an old prophetic phrase (Isa. 35:8). Paul established justification (being made righteous) conclusively two chapters ago, imputed righteousness has already happened by grace through faith. God demands, expects and promises holiness in the gospel just like he did from the ancient Hebrews. What the Law couldn't provide, and still can't, is the righteousness it takes to fulfill the Law.

No question the atonement is required, we have agreed on that much. That righteousness is imputed by grace through faith, which is literally what Paul taught. But how you get from sin cursed so of Adam (Romans 5), is by grace through faith. Yes there is one commandment that Jesus replaced all the others, it in fact fulfills them. This is his new commandment:

Ok, so I realize that there is a lot to unpack here and this is a casual discussion board. Just a heads up, no matter how many times you quote a passage out of context, I will put it in context. What he have hear are principles like; faith, grace, justification, sanctification, righteousness and holiness. The term you dropped without explanation 'atonement', is a pivotal term in Romans. That atonement happened at the cross, not for a years worth of sin, but once and for all. You right it's essential, your wrong if you think you are saved by grace and sanctified by the Law, because you died to it:

Dead to the Law (and sin), in Christ, raised, in order to bear fruit. That's how it works, no one is denying that works follow faith, that's kind of the whole point. But the practical way called holiness, is by grace through faith.

Works are not the issue, it's whether you are saved by good works are for good works, bearing fruit is obviously required. It's either 'by' works or 'for' good works, there is no third option.

Grace and peace,
Mark

mark kennedy said:

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No question the atonement is required, we have agreed on that much. That righteousness is imputed by grace through faith, which is literally what Paul taught. But how you get from sin cursed so of Adam (Romans 5), is by grace through faith. Yes there is one commandment that Jesus replaced all the others, it in fact fulfills them. This is his new commandment:

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (John 16:35)
​

Ok, so I realize that there is a lot to unpack here and this is a casual discussion board. Just a heads up, no matter how many times you quote a passage out of context, I will put it in context. What he have hear are principles like; faith, grace, justification, sanctification, righteousness and holiness. The term you dropped without explanation 'atonement', is a pivotal term in Romans. That atonement happened at the cross, not for a years worth of sin, but once and for all. You right it's essential, your wrong if you think you are saved by grace and sanctified by the Law, because you died to it:

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. (Rom. 7:4)
​

Dead to the Law (and sin), in Christ, raised, in order to bear fruit. That's how it works, no one is denying that works follow faith, that's kind of the whole point. But the practical way called holiness, is by grace through faith.

Works are not the issue, it's whether you are saved by good works are for good works, bearing fruit is obviously required. It's either 'by' works or 'for' good works, there is no third option.

Grace and peace,
Mark

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One of the things the scribes and pharisees did not understand is that the commandments have always been about love. They were the school master to teach us to love one another. Jesus gave to us the higher law when He gave the sermon on the mount. God is love and by keeping the commandments we come to know God. Knowing God is life eternal. I believe that we can agree on these things.

He is the way said:

One of the things the scribes and pharisees did not understand is that the commandments have always been about love. They were the school master to teach us to love one another. Jesus gave to us the higher law when He gave the sermon on the mount. God is love and by keeping the commandments we come to know God. Knowing God is life eternal. I believe that we can agree on these things.

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Sure we can agree, love comes before the Law and love fulfills the Law. You won't get any arguments from me. The one condition in the New Testament and it's undeniable, we love because God first loved us. Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden light, that is not how the legalism of Judaism was lite.


Peter said this after speaking with the other Apostles, I assume included Paul since he was there. Paul describes his discussion with Peter, actually called him a hypocrite, the issue was the Law and salvation. If you were circumcised you were obligated to follow the whole Law, which Peter described as, 'a yoke neither we nor or fathers could bear'. The reason? The Gentiles had 'purified themselves by faith', that's justification by grace through faith plain and simple.

Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.


Did you ever notice that sometimes the worst sinners become the most active ministers, Paul is a prime example. A good working definition for grace is 'unmerited favor', Paul worked in the ministry field by grace alone and he is crystal clear on this point. The merits of Christian ministry are Christ's alone we can add nothing. James 2 in speaking to believers who were obviously showing favoritism was simply telling them that this is not how saving faith works. He was outraged that a wealthy Christian could teach a poor Christian as inferior when they themselves apart from Christ are poor, pitiful, blind and naked. We will receive that full recompense of righteousness and be glorified forever based on Christ's merit, it is never our own.

Grace and peace,
Mark