Biblical Timeline leading up to the end

Dave L said:

“The revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave Him to show His slaves what must quickly take place. He sent it and signified it through His angel to His slave John,” (Revelation 1:1)

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Did Christ return in the first century? Was the kingdom of God established physically when Christ walked the earth?

Based on your view, you would be forced to answer "yes", in which case pursuing further discussion of the Scripture with you would be pointless.

Like I said, it is a problem to impose strict chronology on the words of Scripture when there is not a proper understanding of the context of what's being said. Many things in the letters to the churches did take place in the first century, in the immediate context of those letters, it is about those churches that actually existed during the first century. That does not mean that the whole book was fulfilled in the first century.

Dave L said:

We are in the Messianic age............

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We are in the Messianic Age, alright. Why is Christ not on the Davidic throne at Jerusalem then? And why are we not glorified and ruling with Him? Satan right now is ruling Israel...Israel is currently apostate...but according to you, we are in the Messianic Age?

Dave L said:

You are the one without scriptural backing. And if you can transpose "shortly" into billions of years in the future, you are not to be trusted in anything of a biblical nature.

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What billions of years?

I wrote..."John was writing to the church's. In Jesus's message to the church's those things were taking place right then" in John's lifetime. Jesus's messages to the churches are in Revelation 1:20 -3:22.

Evidence of end times fulliflled prophecies is the actual names of them can be named who were the ten kings, the Antichrist, the little horn, and the beast. You are lacking evidence, Dave.

Dave L said:

“The revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave Him to show His slaves what must quickly take place. He sent it and signified it through His angel to His slave John,” (Revelation 1:1)

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I don't think futurist care about the words "in swiftness" or "time is nigh" as the spider web doctrine of Dispensationalism has too big a hold on them. I mean, we already know what the futurists are going to bring up and it will be the same song and dance.

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking. So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.

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Matthew 24....the "FULL END OF THE AGE"

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us! when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4931-5055> of the Age?
Mark 13:4
Tell us! when? shall these be and what? the sign
whenever may be being about<3195> these.
Luke 21:7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher!
when? then shall these be And what? the sign
whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?

Dispensationalist futurists distort these time statements made by the Apostles of their Lord and Savior concerning the impending Jewish wars and 70ad.

I could quote these verses until the moon turns to blood but.......................LOL

Romans 13:
11 And this knowing the time, that hour it-is already out of sleep to be roused, for now nearer<1452> of us the Salvation than when we believed.
12 The Night progresses, the yet Day is nigh<1448>.
We should be putting off then the works of the Darkness, we should be putting on the implements of the Light.

1 Peter 4:7
Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord is nigh<1448>

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the Time/Parousia is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
That the Time/Parousia is nigh<1451>.

Dave L said:

We are in the Messianic age............

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No we are not.
At this present juncture we are in the Church Age.
That is until the Groom (Christ) removes the Bride (Church).

ItIsFinished! said:

No we are not.
At this present juncture we are in the Church Age.
That is until the Groom (Christ) removes the Bride (Church).

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We [Christian Jews and Gentiles] are in the Church age because God eliminated the OC Jewish Temple and sacrifices

Why is that so hard for futurists to understand. This is why I rarely debate carnal futurists [I did it for 10yrs]..........
Study the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.......

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

Same event as Matthew 24:

.Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints

Only 10 votes on this thread. I thought it would at least appeal to Preterists and Amills......

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Luke 21:24 and Revleation 13:10 showing 70ad destruction of Jerusalem?
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1. *
   Yes
   3 vote(s)
   30.0%
2. No
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   50.0%
3. Maybe
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4. I am not sure but am willing to learn
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5. Does it matter?
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In the messianic age, the wolf lies down with the lamb.

LittleLambofJesus said:

We [Christian Jews and Gentiles] are in the Church age because God eliminated the OC Jewish Temple and sacrifices

Why is that so hard for futurists to understand. This is why I rarely debate carnal futurists [I did it for 10yrs]..........
Study the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.......

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

Same event as Matthew 24:

.Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints

Only 10 votes on this thread. I thought it would at least appeal to Preterists and Amills......

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Luke 21:24 and Revleation 13:10 showing 70ad destruction of Jerusalem?
Edit

1. *
   Yes
   3 vote(s)
   30.0%
2. No
   5 vote(s)
   50.0%
3. Maybe
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
4. I am not sure but am willing to learn
   1 vote(s)
   10.0%
5. Does it matter?
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
6. Other
   1 vote(s)
   10.0%

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Carnal futurists??

ThatCanadianDude_88 said:

Revelation 20:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Satan Bound
20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain [a]in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Where is the gospel mentioned here? How is the explanation you offer Biblical, meaning how do you explain it from Scripture? If you are saying this is currently fulfilled, then that is to say that satan is no longer deceiving the nations.

But satan is clearly deceiving the nations as we speak. So what this portion of Scripture speaks of has not happened yet.

The gospel removed the devil's power and authority, that's what Scripture tells us, but he is still in operation. This passage speaks of a time when he is imprisoned, meaning his activity ceases during the age of the Messianic Kingdom.

The explanation you offer is at odds with Scripture, either you are right and satan is currently bound and his activities have ceased (which is clearly not the case) or this speaks of something to take place in the future. Those are the two options.

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or, the millennium has come and gone, and now is the era of Gog and Magog?

Douggg said:

Those are six kings, not ten kings. And they did not rule contemporary with each other, to give their kingdom to the beast and to rule with the beast for one hour..

Julius Ceasar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero are six kings of the 7 heads (kings) in Revelation 17:10. Differently, the ten kings are the ten horns and rule contemporary with each other, i.e. at the same time.

You are doing a copy and paste from commentary on the bible.. that doesn't give the names of the ten kings.

I am asking you to name the ten kings by their actual names, who were living at the time that God setups up his everlasting kingdom here on earth. You say most claim they have already come. So name the ten kings who were here.

The apostles in the books of the New Testament should have named the ten kings. But none of the apostles (except John in Revelation) made any mention of them, nor named them. In contrast, the names of the twelve apostles are given in the New Testament.

Plus, none of the the apostles named the Antichrist, nor the beast, nor the prince who shall come, nor the little horn, nor the revealed man of sin.

They didn't because those are all future, as are the ten kings.

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6 heads have 1 horn each

1. Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero...... 1 head has 4 horns, 1 of which defeats the other 3
7. Galba
8. Otho
9. Vitellius
10. Vespasian

10th horn = 70th week = Abomination of Desolation. Destruction of the physical temple in the year 70ad

ThatCanadianDude_88 said:

In Revelations, Christ told first century churches that He was "coming quickly", does that mean the return of Christ took place in the first century? To interpret this literally is to misunderstand what Christ was saying.

The disciples of Christ themselves also fell into this same misunderstanding, more than once they interpreted the teachings of Christ to mean that the kingdom would appear immediately, did it?

It is problematic to impose strict chronology to the words of Scripture without understanding the context of what's being said. Scripture often condenses prophetic timelines and makes use of prophetic telescoping. Christ knew how much we need to remain sober and vigilant so He often imparted teachings with a spirit of urgency. That doesn't mean we are to take everything literally and interpret it all chronologically, this I believe is error.

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yes, the "Parousia" of Jesus Christ occured in the first century

he was seen in the "clouds of Heaven" vindicated over his crucifiers. Enthroned in power in heaven at the right hand of God.

Jesus "CAME as a thief" in revelation 16, as God in Heaven Marshalled forces at "Armageddon" against "Babylon"...

Which falls in revelation 18... Symbolizing the destruction of Jerusalem in that year 70

That's why Christ was ALREADY PRESENT in revelation 19 to defeat the beast symbolizing the Pagan Roman Empire Which was spiritually converted in the third and fourth and fifth centuries.

Being ALREADY PRESENT. The Saints could live and reign WITH Jesus on Earth in revelation 20

Dave L said:

We are in the Messianic age............

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messianic AGE = messianic KINGDOM of God in heaven

!= millennium

we have been in the Messianic age since Christ in the first century. But we are not in the "Millennium" of the Messianic age, which only exists AFTER the beast and BEFORE gog and magog

Erik Nelson said:

6 heads have 1 horn each

1. Caesar
2. Augustus
3. Tiberius
4. Caligula
5. Claudius
6. Nero...... 1 head has 4 horns, 1 of which defeats the other 3
7. Galba
8. Otho
9. Vitellius
10. Vespasian

10th horn = 70th week = Abomination of Desolation. Destruction of the physical temple in the year 70ad

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Hi Erik, you are putting the horns on the heads, and putting crowns on the horned heads. The problem with that approach is that sometimes the heads have crowns and the horns don't, and vice versa. So the horns can't be on the heads.

Compare Revelation 12 to Revelation 13, and you will see what I mean. In Revelation 12 the heads have crowns, the horns do not. In Revelation 13, it is flipped flopped, the heads do not have crowns, bu the horns do.

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The heads are sequential kings. Differently, the horns are contemporary kings to each other.

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Setting that aside, number wise those are ten kings. But how are you going to get the little horn king coming up among those ten kings? Daniel 7:24.

And them at one point giving their kingdom to the beast? Revelation 17:17.

I can tell you why ten sequential kings don't work. Because the ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13, and not in Revelation 12 or Revelation 17.

They have their crowns in Revelation 13 because the beast person has come to power and they will rule with him 42 months (Revelation 13:5). In Revelation 17:12, they rule with the beast one hour - a way of saying a short period of time.

Douggg said:

Hi Erik, you are putting the horns on the heads, and putting crowns on the horned heads. The problem with that approach is that sometimes the heads have crowns and the horns don't, and vice versa. So the horns can't be on the heads.

Compare Revelation 12 to Revelation 13, and you will see what I mean. In Revelation 12 the heads have crowns, the horns do not. In Revelation 13, it is flipped flopped, the heads do not have crowns, bu the horns do.

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The heads are sequential kings. Differently, the horns are contemporary kings to each other.

____________________________________________________________
Setting that aside, number wise those are ten kings. But how are you going to get the little horn king coming up among those ten kings? Daniel 7:24.

And them at one point giving their kingdom to the beast? Revelation 17:17.

I can tell you why ten sequential kings don't work. Because the ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13, and not in Revelation 12 or Revelation 17.

They have their crowns in Revelation 13 because the beast person has come to power and they will rule with him 42 months (Revelation 13:5). In Revelation 17:12, they rule with the beast one hour - a way of saying a short period of time.

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so...

Revelation 12:3
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.

Revelation 13:1
The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name

so we are talking about 2 different. Adversaries.

One is the DRAGON symbolizing the devil. The Serpent from the garden of Eden.

The other is the BEAST. Which is symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire?

The BEAST OF REVELATION. Matches up with the FOURTH BEAST OF DANIEL. The 10th horn of the BEAST causes the abomination of Desolation. In the destruction of the physical temple during the 70th week.

The Dragon, although superficially similar. Is new to Revelation? The dragon is chained during the Millennium? And freed afterwards. To be again, the "power behind the throne". But this time, not of the fourth beast Daniel= Pagan Roman Empire...

but "Gog and Magog" of Ezekiel 38-9 = global cabal of ???

So I want to focus my remarks on the beast. Not the dragon. The Beast symbolizes the Pagan Roman Empire. And the 10 horns with 10 crowns. Symbolizes the first 10 emperors of Rome. Julius Caesar through Vespasian, who exactly as prophecy? Defeated 3 rival emperor claimants. And. Razed the temple of Jerusalem.