Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

GingerBeer · Apr 12, 2019

pasifika said:
Okay...Sorry cannot write proper english

Excellent; now back to the topic - "believe and continue to believe life long and you shall be saved" which more or less summarises the topic from the original post.

BCsenior · Apr 12, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
All I see is you (MDC) making a bunch of empty claims. Why won’t you address the scriptures we’ve provided and prove your point?

He refuses to address these 3 dozen verses
which WARN about losing salvation ...
NT verses to churches threaten loss of salvation

And he refuses to address these 2 dozen verses
which WARN about losing salvation ...
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

And FreeGrace2 has repeatedly claimed that
there are NO verses which threaten salvation loss,
which would include all verses in the above 2 threads!

BCsenior · Apr 12, 2019

It seems I'm involved in a double-barrelled deal:
(1) I'm called to WARN the so-called "believers"
---- who think they are saved, but are not.
(2) Evangelists are called to WARN everybody about sin.

His student · Apr 12, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
However eternal security was never taught in the church and didn’t come about until over 1500 years after the church was established.

That simply is not true. Both Jesus and Paul taught it long before the end of the 1st century.

“I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish” John 10:28

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.” John 6:39

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” John 5:24

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:13-14

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” Ephesians 4:30

Bible Highlighter · Apr 12, 2019

Gods not mad said:
to all who believe you can lose your salvation by not doing good works.

Well, in order for your belief here to be true, God would have to agree with sin. For if God's very plan of salvation is to make for us to think that we can sin and still be saved, then it must be a way that God wants us to think and it would be of God's mind and thoughts. But the Scriptures say The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked..." (Jeremiah 17:9). The Scriptures say, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8). The Scriptures say that there is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5); And the Lord is holy (Isaiah 43:15).

Scripture says we have the mind if Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Christ never sinned once (1 Peter 2:22).
Christ's mindset was sinlessness. We are said to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Yet, your mind is not like that. It is set on how you think you can sin and still be saved (Which is contrary to many Scripture verses).

Hebrews 3:12-13

You said, I quote:

"...to all who believe you can lose your salvation by not doing good works"
~ Poster: Gods not mad.

Let's test that theory with Scripture.

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”
(Matthew 25:21).

If that is not enough, I have tons more verses. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check them out.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

You said:
to all who believe Christs sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient and you need to add to it.

Actually, this is not what the Bible teaches about Christ's blood or salvation.

We are told to walk in the light and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

Walking in the light is in context to loving your brother (1 John 2:10).
Loving your brother (neighbor) is the same equivalent of keeping the moral Law or God's commandments according to Paul (See Romans 13:8-10).
This is why John says that we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). For if any person claims to know the Lord and they do not keep his commandments, they are a liar and the truth (Jesus) is not in them (1 John 2:4).
A person cannot be saved or have life without abiding in the Son (Jesus); For 1 John 5:12 says that he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son, does not have life.
God abides with the righteous because God is holy and righteous Himself.
For what fellowship does light have with darkness? (See: 2 Corinthians 6:14).

You said:
just so you all know God does not like self righteousness.

It is true that God does not like false man made self righteousness (apart from His Word) or that we can be good or righteous without God working in us to be righteous (after we are saved by God's grace). But Scripture says that the Lord loves the righteous and He is angry with the wicked every day.

"For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright."
(Psalms 11:7).

"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
(Psalms 7:11).

Bible Highlighter · Apr 12, 2019

Gods not mad said:
when was the last time you watched inappropriate content?
when was the last time you lusted after a women who was not your wife?

Grievous sins can be confessed and cleansed and overcome. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. There are Christians who have testified to having overcome inappropriate contentography or looking at others in lust. Jesus says that if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body will be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Why would Jesus warn us about this kind of sin leading to our damnation if things are as you say? For it would do no good for an unbeliever to forsake sin. An unbeliever needs to first accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, and seek forgiveness with the Lord and believe in His death and resurrection on their behalf for salvation to begin with. They can forsake sin all they like, but without accepting the Lord first for salvation, they will be lost.

You said:
when was the last time you did not treat someone in the perfect love of Christ?

You seem to be under the false impression that all sin is the same in the Bible. It is not.
There are grievous sins that can lead to spiritual death (that the Bible clearly mentions as the kinds of sins that will destroy your soul), and there are minor infractions or faults of character. I will attempt to address this point with you in my next post.

You said:
when was the last time you were angry with someone? road rage even

But worldly uncontrollable anger (that does not seek to forgive) is not a fruit of the Spirit. Believers are to have the fruits of the Spirit, and not also the fruits of the devil. Jesus says a good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

You said:
when was the last time you stole from your job by not working consistently?

I see this as only being a problem if the person is actually not doing their job and they are not loving their neighbor (as they would themselves). Meaning, if they had a company like that, how would they expect their employees to do that job? Jesus says to treat others how you want to be treated. Again, we have to stick to how the Bible defines sin and if that sin is condemned. Loving your neighbor would be the crucial point I make with one's performance at their job. If a person is not working at their job, this is wrong. But not all jobs require a person to do hard manual labor non-stop for every second you are on the clock. Some do, but the point here is not to create rules that God did not place within His Word.

when was the last time you put anything before God and did not make him first?

Right, we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love our neighbor. We are told that this is a part of eternal life. Jesus tells a lawyer that if he were to do this, he shall live (See Luke 10:25-28). Jesus did not correct the lawyer give him a sin and still be saved type message (like you are doing here).

You said:
when was the last time you were not completely truthful in anything?

You are under the impression that not revealing all truth is a lie. This is not lying. Jesus Himself did not openly share that He was God to all people. In fact, Jesus sometimes told people to not tell others about His miracles. In fact, there was a time Jesus misdirected His claim to Godhood with the Jews when he said that it is written that "You are gods?" (John 10:34). Obviously Jesus was not saying that the Israelites are literally gods in the sense that we are divine like God, but He was saying that they were rulers. But Jesus said this because He claimed to be God prior. Jesus used a Scripture as a part of misdirection to protect His mission in going to the cross. We are to be truthful with our words, but that does not mean we have to reveal all truth to people. Not revealing all truth t people does not mean we are lying. That is a false idea of lying. Nowhere does the Bible teach such a thing.

You said:
when was the last time you spoken falsely or in a spirit of gossip towards another?

Jesus says you can be condemned by your words (Matthew 12:37).

when was the last time you did not visit a brother in jail on a perfect consistent basis?
when was the last time you did not take care of a widow on a perfect consistent basis?
when was the last time you did not take care of an orphan on a perfect consistent basis?

Where does the Bible use these words exactly as a part of the condemnation of our soul?
The Bible says that we are to help the poor and the unfortunate in Matthew 25:31-46.
It does not say that if we fail to do one of those things, we will be cast into everlasting fire.
It is saying we are to essentially help the poor and unfortunate in this life.
But yes, not helping the poor in some way is a salvation issue.
Just read the passage for yourself and it will become evident.

You said:
and did You "repent" perfectly for all your imperfections? if not then according to what you teach you have lost your salvation?

Again, not all sin is the same. I will attempt to explain this in my next post to you.

You said:
lets see who will answer these questions especially the first two because i can tell you this when you try to please God by the law sin grows. i have never met a perfect man perhaps he/she is on this forum. because that is what you are teaching and placing over people so lets see how you measure up. when you accept God's perfect sacrifice (his grace) and add nothing to it then Christ victory comes over you and sin diminishes.

It is written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).

Also, the forum rules state we are not to address the poster or the individual, but we are to stick to the topic with Scripture.

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do. Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not).

Jesus asks the question, "when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?" (See Luke 18:8).

For in the last days many shall have a form of godliness but they will deny the power thereof (See 2 Timothy 3:1-9).

BCsenior · Apr 12, 2019

His student said:
“I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish” John 10:28

Please ... this is FreeGrace2's repeated favorite!
But, he disregards the previous verse (10:27),
which is a CONDITIONAL verse ...
Do you hear Jesus' voice?
Does He know you?
Do you follow Him?

Bible Highlighter · Apr 12, 2019

Gods not mad said:
and did You "repent" perfectly for all your imperfections? if not then according to what you teach you have lost your salvation?

Not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them, the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

Jonathan Mathews · Apr 12, 2019

The Faith I received existed before I was born and it will be converted to Sight when I die or the Lord returns. It's a Gift in the Holy Spirit, which is the Seal of God that cannot be broken.

1stcenturylady · Apr 12, 2019

BCsenior said:
As per dozens of dire warnings in the NT.
Thank you, sister.
There are many in the churches who are NOT saved.

Yes, that is my greatest fear for the Church, and the reason for Matthew 7:23.

Toro · Apr 12, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
A person who keeps sinning doesn't belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

I disagree with this comment on the surface of it alone.

We are all sinners and none will be perfect until the flesh is stripped away and a believer is free of the flesh. I do agree that sin IS the issue, but there is far more to salvation than simply yes or no that we as humans only have part of the picture.

I do agree sin needs to be dealt with and that one SHOULD desire and push to overcome sin, but to say if one sins they are not saved can be discouraging to one that is pursuing a sinless nature but stumbles into a sin in which they need encouragement, not condemnation and warning. Due to that, such a broad statement can be dangerous if it causes a true brother or sister to stumble.

We ALL have our moments of stumbling no matter where we are in our pursuit of Christ we just struggle with different sins at different levels.

It's not that if we sin we are not saved, but if our attitude towards sin has not changed then one is not likely saved.

There is a difference between stumbling into sin and living in sin. One wants to be free of sin, the other excuses sin, calling it acceptable or "good".

Salvation is not by lack of sin but ones attitude towards sin. We do not wake up the day after coming to Christ made perfect. We are born again, and in being as such, we become as a baby and our growth in Christ takes time, it's a journey that is not complete until we are no longer held back by the flesh.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 12, 2019

Jonathan Mathews said:
The Faith I received existed before I was born and it will be converted to Sight when I die or the Lord returns. It's a Gift in the Holy Spirit, which is the Seal of God that cannot be broken.

Romans Four, & Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift:

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

So Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:
If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all. Why? Because Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (That said that you had to be first circumcised in order to be initially or ultimately saved).

1stcenturylady · Apr 12, 2019

Toro said:
I disagree with this comment on the surface of it alone.

We are all sinners and none will be perfect until the flesh is stripped away and a believer is free of the flesh. I do agree that sin IS the issue, but there is far more to salvation than simply yes or no that we as humans only have part of the picture.

I do agree sin needs to be dealt with and that one SHOULD desire and push to overcome sin, but to say if one sins they are not saved can be discouraging to one that is pursuing a sinless nature but stumbles into a sin in which they need encouragement, not condemnation and warning. Due to that, such a broad statement can be dangerous if it causes a true brother or sister to stumble.

We ALL have our moments of stumbling no matter where we are in our pursuit of Christ we just struggle with different sins at different levels.

It's not that if we sin we are not saved, but if our attitude towards sin has not changed then one is not likely saved.

There is a difference between stumbling into sin and living in sin. One wants to be free of sin, the other excuses sin, calling it acceptable or "good".

Salvation is not by lack of sin but ones attitude towards sin. We do not wake up the day after coming to Christ made perfect. We are born again, and in being as such, we become as a baby and our growth in Christ takes time, it's a journey that is not complete until we are no longer held back by the flesh.

I am talking about WILLFUL sinning. A Christian, born again of the Spirit of Christ, cannot do willful sinning as it is against their new nature.

You seem to be in a belief that believes there is only one definition for flesh, and that is our body of muscle and bone.

There is another definition for flesh, called our nature, our spirit. The old CARNAL nature is dead for a Christian. If it is not dead, then that person still belongs to the devil. It is out of our nature/flesh whether we naturally walk in the Spirit as does a Christian, or fulfill the lusts of the flesh as does the damned. You can't do both.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 12, 2019

Toro said:
I disagree with this comment on the surface of it alone.

We are all sinners and none will be perfect until the flesh is stripped away and a believer is free of the flesh. I do agree that sin IS the issue, but there is far more to salvation than simply yes or no that we as humans only have part of the picture.

I do agree sin needs to be dealt with and that one SHOULD desire and push to overcome sin, but to say if one sins they are not saved can be discouraging to one that is pursuing a sinless nature but stumbles into a sin in which they need encouragement, not condemnation and warning. Due to that, such a broad statement can be dangerous if it causes a true brother or sister to stumble.

We ALL have our moments of stumbling no matter where we are in our pursuit of Christ we just struggle with different sins at different levels.

It's not that if we sin we are not saved, but if our attitude towards sin has not changed then one is not likely saved.

There is a difference between stumbling into sin and living in sin. One wants to be free of sin, the other excuses sin, calling it acceptable or "good".

Salvation is not by lack of sin but ones attitude towards sin. We do not wake up the day after coming to Christ made perfect. We are born again, and in being as such, we become as a baby and our growth in Christ takes time, it's a journey that is not complete until we are no longer held back by the flesh.

No doubt you think this way because of a false understanding on Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23. You are thinking that it is talking even the believer who lives in their present walk with God. There is no doubt that we have all sinned at some point in our past; However, to make these two verses say that we as believers are sinning in the present tense is false. How so? Well, if you were to believe that we as believers are sinning in the present tense in regards to these two verses, then you must also believe Romans 3:11 is teaching that we as believers (in the present tense or in their current walk with God) do not seek after God, and that we do not have any understanding. For that is what Romans 3:11 says. Also, how do you reconcile verses like Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 12:14, and 2 Peter 2:14? Such verses would be nonsense in light of your belief.

Jonathan Mathews · Apr 12, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Romans Four, & Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift:

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

So Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:
If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

This is a great way to describe our 2 kinds of works. I think you have "rightly divided the Word of True". The way I say the same thing is that there are:
A) Works of Law
B) Works of Grace in Faith

For example, circumcision. It's not wrong to be circumcised. It's wrong to expect that some inherent righteousness is gained by being circumcised. Or giving to the poor..... it's not wrong to give poor. But it doesn't gain you the righteousness of God. However, those who have gained the Righteousness of God will give to the poor.

The same "work" can be done either in Faith or apart from it. Righteousness is a free Gift that produces good works. Good works do not produce the Righteousness of God unless they are done by a person who already has God's Righteousness.

The Law defined good and bad works. But the Law did not provide the Righteousness of God. Only Christ Jesus has done that, as it written...

"The Law came thru Moses, but Grace and Truth came thru Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)

Toro · Apr 12, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
I am talking about WILLFUL sinning. A Christian, born again of the Spirit of Christ, cannot do willful sinning as it is against their new nature.

You seem to be in a belief that believes there is only one definition for flesh, and that is our body of muscle and bone.

There is another definition for flesh, called our nature, our spirit. The old CARNAL nature is dead for a Christian. If it is not dead, then that person still belongs to the devil. It is out of our nature/flesh whether we naturally walk in the Spirit as does a Christian, or fulfill the lusts of the flesh as does the damned. You can't do both.

I understand willful sin, but we also need be mindful that not all of our brothers or sisters are at our level of understanding, so we must be cautious with our words to not be so general but to be precise in our meaning so that they will not be led astray or discouraged by our careless general words.

As was shown by Paul, he did not speak to everyone as if they were at his level of understanding. So to must we use words precisely when we talk to the general public (such as on a forum) so that a brother or sister is not discouraged but encouraged.

If we state specifically "willful sin" then it causes a new brother or sister to enquire about what is willful sin, instead of simply seeing "If you sin, you are doomed."

We all must be careful with the words we choose or assuming that all have the same light and understanding that we ourselves have been given.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 12, 2019

Jonathan Mathews said:
This is a great way to describe our 2 kinds of works. I think you have "rightly divided the Word of True". The way I say the same thing is that there are:
A) Works of Law
B) Works of Grace in Faith

For example, circumcision. It's not wrong to be circumcised. It's wrong to expect that some inherent righteousness is gained by being circumcised. Or giving to the poor..... it's not wrong to give poor. But it doesn't gain you the righteousness of God. However, those who have gained the Righteousness of God will give to the poor.

The same "work" can be done either in Faith or apart from it. Righteousness is a free Gift that produces good works. Good works do not produce the Righteousness of God unless they are done by a person who already has God's Righteousness.

Sorry, my friend. I disagree. While we first need to accept Jesus as our Savior in order to obey, the Bible says this:

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7).

"The one who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the devil's works." (1 John 3:8).

Jonathan Mathews · Apr 12, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Sorry, my friend. I disagree. While we first need to accept Jesus as our Savior in order to obey, the Bible says this:

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7).

"The one who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the devil's works." (1 John 3:8).

The Word says "whoever does righteousness is righteous". It does not say "whoever does good works or keeps the Law is righteous". The Word says there is a Righteousness APART from the Law (Romans 3:21-22). This is Christ's Righteousness which MUST be received in order to BE righteous. No good deeds justify a person and make them Righteous before God. A filthy sinful person cannot gain the Holiness of God by doing good deeds. Even their good deeds are "as filthy rags". But those made Righteous by Christ (those who receive Christ's Righteousness by Faith) DO Righteousness. They walk in accordance with the Will of God, and have no more need for the Law of Moses, nor are condemned by it (1 Timothy 1:9-10). And yet, there is a Righteousness we still hope for even though we have the Spirit (Galatians 5:5). That is the complete, total, Perfection of Jesus Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Apr 12, 2019

Jonathan Mathews said:
The Word says "whoever does righteousness is righteous". It does not say "whoever does good works is righteous". The Word says there is a Righteousness APART from the Law. This is Christ's Righteousness which MUST be received in order to BE righteous. No good deeds justify a person and make them Righteous before God. But those made Righteous by Christ are inspired to do good works, at least to keep the teaching of Jesus Christ, not necessarily Moses.

No. He that does righteousness is talking about righteous works or deeds. This is what John means.

The confusion arises when people read Paul and they are looking to defend a sin and still be saved type doctrine or a sin safety net type doctrine. However, Paul is referring to the 613 law of Moses contractually speaking. He is not referring to all laws or commands. Paul is not referring to the laws or commands that come from Jesus and His followers. Circumcision was the problem or issue because it no longer applied anymore because it was a part of the Old Law. That is why he spoke in the way that he did. For if a person thought they had to be first circumcised to be saved, they are undermining God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ first. Jesus is how we are initially and ultimately saved. But after we are saved by God's grace, we have to obey the commands of Jesus and His followers in the New Covenant as a part of eternal life. Jesus Himself affirms to the truth that we are to love God (with some details) and to love your neighbor as a part of eternal life in Luke 10:25-28. Nowhere does the Bible say that you are righteous even if you sin.

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Oldmantook · Apr 12, 2019

MDC said:
If one can lose their salvation, then salvation must be maintained by men’s works of righteousness. And if ones works of righteousness must maintain his salvation, then salvation must be earned by men’s works of righteousness. This doctrine nullifies the gospel altogether. It’s a doctrine of unbelief

Then you will

His student said:
That simply is not true. Both Jesus and Paul taught it long before the end of the 1st century.

“I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish” John 10:28

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.” John 6:39

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” John 5:24

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:13-14

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” Ephesians 4:30

Since you go by the name His student then study the scriptures in context and don't just accept at face value what you were taught.
The assurances of Jn 10:28 only apply to those sheep who "listen and "follow" in v.27. Those sheep who disobey are not promised eternal life.
If Jn 6:39 is blanket statement regarding eternal security, then Jesus must have contradicted himself because in Jn 17:6-12 Jesus states that Judas along with the other disciples was given to Jesus by the Father (v.6); yet despite this, Judas was lost (v.12).
The word "believeth" in Jn 5:24 is a present tense participle in the Greek meaning "believing." One must continue believing for everlasting life. If one ceases to believe, everlasting life is no longer assured of.
Regarding the sealing of the Holy Spirit, no where in the NT does it state that the Spirit's seal cannot be broken. The Spirit's seal is a down payment or pledge toward our redemption much like the down payment on a house. God is faithful and his pledge toward us is secure; however there is no guarantee that believers will always remain faithful to God and like the mortgagor fail to make their monthly mortgage payments.

Believers’ faith must endure until the end of their lives!

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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