Speaking in tongues

SinoBen said:

Very much disagree with your reading. Reading the whole context without the need of Koine Greek knowledge - of which we only know in part.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.​

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version, (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), 1 Co 13:8–13.

"when the perfect comes" refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ not the completion of the Canon.

Between the first coming and the second coming, we are in that period of knowing in part. We need the gifts to serve and to minister to the Body of Christ, the Church.

After the second coming of Jesus Christ, there are no uses for gifts (whose function is to serve the Body). None! because we will know him and be with him "face to face". Nevertheless, Paul says, Love doesn't end like those service gifts, prophecies and tongues.

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You said...……………….
"when the perfect comes" refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ not the completion of the Canon."

You are welcome to that thinking. I will not argue the point as that is the teaching of many, many really great Bible teachers. I would only point out to you the following definitions………...

​

Definition of "perfect" (teleion) in 1 Cor 13:8-13......……..

1.The Greek word "perfect" does not denote the idea of blamelessness, perfection or complete holiness as our English word "perfect" does today.

2. Greek dictionary definitions:

a. VINE: "Signifies having reached its end, finished, complete, perfect"

b. THAYER: "brought to its end, wanting nothing necessary to completeness; when used of men it means full-grown, adult, of full age, mature."

c. BAGSTER: "brought to completion, complete, entire, as opposed to what is partial or limited"

d. ARNDT & GINGRICH: "having attained the end or purpose, complete, perfect".

True method of interpretation:

What is in part: What is perfect:
Partially full glass completely full glass
Partially full gas tank completely full gas tank
Partially full knowledge completely full knowledge

Pentecostal method of interpretation:

What is in part: What is perfect:
Partially full glass Jesus is sinless
Partially full gas tank Jesus is sinless
Partially full knowledge Jesus is sinless
Partially full knowledge Jesus is sinless

The object noun MUST BE THE SAME!!!

1. Two times we are specifically told by the Holy Spirit that "knowledge, know, knowing" is the "object noun" of "Perfect"

2. "We know in part" we only know part of the truth.

3. "But when the perfect comes" then we will know all of God's will for us.

ChristianForCats said:

While researching Protestant denominations, I learned this interesting bit of information: Most, but not all, evangelicals and Pentecostals believe people still receive gifts from the Holy Spirit - including speaking in tongues - when they are saved. Although speaking in tongues is Biblical I have never heard of any new Christians doing so. The same article states other denominations hold the belief that this stopped a long time ago. This makes sense, but they lump together all Holy Spirit gifts, not just speaking in tongues. I don't believe it is all or nothing. What do you think?

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Gift is never meant to build a church of singularity.

1 Corinthians 12:28-30 (NIV2011)
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

To have a church where everyone speaks in tongue is never intended. It's never biblical.


1 Corinthians 14:27-28 (NIV2011)
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.


This is a direct instruction on how tongues should be handled.

That said. By my own experience, tongues are about how a soul speaks to another without a physical body. When you (your soul) speak in Hades, everyone else will hear as his own native tongue. This is what I believe to be the nature of what speaking in tongue is.

The Pentecost event is for God to enable this mechanism such that the language barrier is gone.

ChristianForCats said:

I really just want to know why there are denominational differences about speaking in tongues.

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There's no one reason alone for this, but here is my opinion:

1. It is in mankind's nature to argue over just about anything. Tongues is no different. Don't believe me? Look around this forum... nearly any topic can and often does devolve into (in my opinion) unhealthy arguments.
2. The gift is described as: "different kinds of tongues" or as I said earlier, different manifestations. Therefore disagreements/divisions can happen when someone has an understanding of one type but witnesses another.
3. Part of tongues is speaking out the mysteries of God. God is so much higher that us, He is beyond our ability to completely understand, but we do our best to understand Him as best we can anyway. Human nature is such that we don't like not understanding something, therefore, we reduce eternal and infinite concepts that we cannot fully grasp into smaller things which we can. Tongues is perhaps the greatest example (or maybe more accurately, the most "in your face" example) of our inability to understand, therefore the entire concept is met with high levels of skepticism from the get go. This leads to things like: believing in it, but never teaching in it or demonstrating it, reducing it to a rare gift only for a few, or just removing it from the equation all together.
4. It is a Holy Spirit gift, but as with all the other gifts, it is a partnership with man. Whenever man is involved there will be abuses and misuses (ie people doing crazy stupid stuff). This is true of any and all biblical principals. This causes resentment and division as well. But, just because some abuse the truth doesn't mean we should refuse the truth.
5. The devil hates it. He can't understand it, so he can't come against it directly. But, what he can do is use the previous examples to foster confusion, anger, competition and thereby cause division over it (hence denominational differences)

So, put all this together (especially 3) and you get passionate people who seem to have this inner motivation that they MUST defend their position at any and all costs. This can sometimes lead to surprisingly un-christ-like behavior towards other Christians like unrepentant name calling, mocking, ridicule and sometimes completely ostracizing others, thus causing even more division.

ChristianForCats said:

It looks like we have to learn Greek to understand a book that is written in English.

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Not really. However, when there is a conflict in understanding, it is helpful to know what the original thought of the writer was in his own language.

Throughout the Bible, the English language we use today in many cases does not properly give us the correct translation.

ChristianForCats said:

So basically it is impossible to understand Holy Spirit gifts such as speaking in tongues, so we make up at least two different possible explanations.

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Or we can just accept what the Bible actually says as what it means to say.

Mark 16:14 says...……..
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" and then in verse 17 the Lord Jesus said to the same ELEVEN (11) that when THEY did what He commanded them to do, they would have special GIFTS to help them along the way...………................

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Those are the SIGN Gifts given to the ELEVEN APOSTLES.

topher694 said:

There's no one reason alone for this, but here is my opinion:

1. It is in mankind's nature to argue over just about anything. Tongues is no different. Don't believe me? Look around this forum... nearly any topic can and often does devolve into (in my opinion) unhealthy arguments.
2. The gift is described as: "different kinds of tongues" or as I said earlier, different manifestations. Therefore disagreements/divisions can happen when someone has an understanding of one type but witnesses another.
3. Part of tongues is speaking out the mysteries of God. God is so much higher that us, He is beyond our ability to completely understand, but we do our best to understand Him as best we can anyway. Human nature is such that we don't like not understanding something, therefore, we reduce eternal and infinite concepts that we cannot fully grasp into smaller things which we can. Tongues is perhaps the greatest example (or maybe more accurately, the most "in your face" example) of our inability to understand, therefore the entire concept is met with high levels of skepticism from the get go. This leads to things like: believing in it, but never teaching in it or demonstrating it, reducing it to a rare gift only for a few, or just removing it from the equation all together.
4. It is a Holy Spirit gift, but as with all the other gifts, it is a partnership with man. Whenever man is involved there will be abuses and misuses (ie people doing crazy stupid stuff). This is true of any and all biblical principals. This causes resentment and division as well. But, just because some abuse the truth doesn't mean we should refuse the truth.
5. The devil hates it. He can't understand it, so he can't come against it directly. But, what he can do is use the previous examples to foster confusion, anger, competition and thereby cause division over it (hence denominational differences)

So, put all this together (especially 3) and you get passionate people who seem to have this inner motivation that they MUST defend their position at any and all costs. This can sometimes lead to surprisingly un-christ-like behavior towards other Christians like unrepentant name calling, mocking, ridicule and sometimes completely ostracizing others, thus causing even more division.

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Excellent explinations.

I would add that some of the un-Christlike behavior comes from the very deep seated teaching in the Charismatic Pentecostal faith that IF YOU ARE SAVED, you will speak in tongues.

When I was a lot younger than I am now, the very first thing I remember my church training us teenagers was this statement to ask people about being saved or going to heaven as a witnessing tool...………...

"Are you a born again Christian, with the EVIDENCE being that you speak in tongues".

So then when someone comes along to challenge the speaking in tongues, a lot of people who do choose to speak in tongues think that they are speaking with "Lost" people instead of Christians who do not agree with their choices.

Hawkins said:

Gift is never meant to build a church of singularity.

1 Corinthians 12:28-30 (NIV2011)
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

To have a church where everyone speaks in tongue is never intended. It's never biblical.


1 Corinthians 14:27-28 (NIV2011)
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.


This is a direct instruction on how tongues should be handled.

That said. By my own experience, tongues are about how a soul speaks to another without a physical body. When you (your soul) speak in Hades, everyone else will hear as his own native tongue. This is what I believe to be the nature of what speaking in tongue is.

The Pentecost event is for God to enable this mechanism such that the language barrier is gone.

Click to expand...

You said...............
"That said. By my own experience, tongues are about how a soul speaks to another without a physical body. When you (your soul) speak in Hades, everyone else will hear as his own native tongue. This is what I believe to be the nature of what speaking in tongue is."

Do you have any Scriptures at all that would validate your comment or even suggest such a teaching??????

Then...……..Why would you speak in HADES?

I do not understand that at all. Are you thinking you are going to Hades/HELL???

Major1 said:

Excellent explinations.

I would add that some of the un-Christlike behavior comes from the very deep seated teaching in the Charismatic Pentecostal faith that IF YOU ARE SAVED, you will speak in tongues.

When I was a lot younger than I am now, the very first thing I remember my church training us teenagers was this statement to ask people about being saved or going to heaven as a witnessing tool...………...

"Are you a born again Christian, with the EVIDENCE being that you speak in tongues".

So then when someone comes along to challenge the speaking in tongues, a lot of people who do choose to speak in tongues think that they are speaking with "Lost" people instead of Christians who do not agree with their choices.

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Yeah, good point. I have probably prayed with over 100 people to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I always make it clear that their salvation is not dependent upon it. Some receive it quickly and easily, others not so much (there are a variety of reasons for this). There are even some cases where I'm pretty certain they received the baptism, but they still struggle to pray in tongues (usually because they over-think it... like I once did). If someone were to fall into the latter category of struggling with it at first (which is common) AND you attached the pressure of salvation to that struggle. I can see how people could very easily become disheartened and want nothing further to do with it and even become aggressive towards those who do.

ChristianForCats said:

I really just want to know why there are denominational differences about speaking in tongues.

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I'd imagine it's personality type oriented, similar to "why are there so many denominations?"

ChristianForCats said:

Can you explain?

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Sure,

Denomination split over cultural and personality differences.

A marked difference in western churches is the charismatic vs cessationist leanings, it's all about personality and how God reveals Himself to different types of people initially.

When we come to full maturity, differences of opinion aren't as big a deal as when we're younger in the faith and what we know is all there is.

Major1 said:

You said...……………….
"when the perfect comes" refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ not the completion of the Canon."

You are welcome to that thinking. I will not argue the point as that is the teaching of many, many really great Bible teachers. I would only point out to you the following definitions………...
Definition of "perfect" (teleion) in 1 Cor 13:8-13......……..

1.The Greek word "perfect" does not denote the idea of blamelessness, perfection or complete holiness as our English word "perfect" does today.

2. Greek dictionary definitions:

a. VINE: "Signifies having reached its end, finished, complete, perfect"

b. THAYER: "brought to its end, wanting nothing necessary to completeness; when used of men it means full-grown, adult, of full age, mature."

c. BAGSTER: "brought to completion, complete, entire, as opposed to what is partial or limited"

d. ARNDT & GINGRICH: "having attained the end or purpose, complete, perfect".

True method of interpretation:

What is in part: What is perfect:
Partially full glass completely full glass
Partially full gas tank completely full gas tank
Partially full knowledge completely full knowledge

Pentecostal method of interpretation:

What is in part: What is perfect:
Partially full glass Jesus is sinless
Partially full gas tank Jesus is sinless
Partially full knowledge Jesus is sinless
Partially full knowledge Jesus is sinless

The object noun MUST BE THE SAME!!!

1. Two times we are specifically told by the Holy Spirit that "knowledge, know, knowing" is the "object noun" of "Perfect"

2. "We know in part" we only know part of the truth.

3. "But when the perfect comes" then we will know all of God's will for us.

Click to expand...

I will not join you in insults. But you're welcome to your thinking too. We differ brother.

By the way I also have access to the greek and a very good library of dictionaries, lectionaries, commentaries etc. in my Logos Bible Software.

ChristianForCats said:

What is Logos Bible software?

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Logos 8 | Logos Bible Software
You can download the "basic" version for free an try it out, you can also use the web based version
https://app.logos.com

Anyway... it's a useful tool.

Check out Prof. Craig Keener's response on this topic... quite funny.

SinoBen said:

I will not join you in insults. But you're welcome to your thinking too. We differ brother.

By the way I also have access to the greek and a very good library of dictionaries, lectionaries, commentaries etc. in my Logos Bible Software.

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My dear brother. I apologize to you.

I did not mean to insult you in any way. I simple gave you Scriptures and yes, a different teaching than you may not be used to but I did not intend to insult you.

In fact, I went out of the way to use proper and accepted sources such as …….
VINE: THAYER: BAGSTER: and ARNDT & GINGRICH: so that you would see that I was not making a personal opinion but instead one that is rooted in fundament Bible theology and correct Greek grammer.

I am sorry that offended you.

ChristianForCats said:

So God does not teach everyone His Word the same way.

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IMO...…...it is people who want to do something so bad that they will manufacture a meaning of Scriptures so as to validate that longing.

But that is just my opinion and you can do anything you want to with it.

Michael Collum said:

Sure,

Denomination split over cultural and personality differences.

A marked difference in western churches is the charismatic vs cessationist leanings, it's all about personality and how God reveals Himself to different types of people initially.

When we come to full maturity, differences of opinion aren't as big a deal as when we're younger in the faith and what we know is all there is.

Click to expand...

I would say that when anyone moves away from Hebrews 1:1-2...……......
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe",

and begins to look for the revelation of God in other ways, he opens the door for error and false teaching based in the opinion of men instead of God's Word.

John !;1..........
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Jesus Christ is the word and you cannot separate the Lord Jesus from His word and Hebrews 1:1 is telling us that today God is speaking through the Bible, which is His word.