Religions you have rejected

FireDragon76

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I was talking to my therapist today briefly about goals in life (other than taking care of my cat). One possible goal I mentioned was to satisfy my curiosity about the existence or non-existence of supernatural phenomena. I have had some seemingly supernatural experiences, but I also have some psychosis experiences, and there are other issues like confirmation bias.

So I don't intend to fly hither and thither on my broom, but I would like to know if I was imagining things or not. In my opinion, psi, witchcraft, etc. are not as effective in most cases (assuming they even exist) as the natural means we have for accomplishing are goals. If I learned to use ESP to levitate a chair what good would that do me other than satisfying a curiosity?

I just want to know if anything I experienced was supernatural rather than psychological.


I don't understand what you mean. Can you say it a different way? I'm probably just missing something.


If I might suggest something to ponder: the presuppositions you are willing to accept will govern how you interpret experiences. If you believe only people who are crazy hear or communicate with God, for instance, you are going to tend to filter out experiences that might suggest to yourself that you are crazy.
 
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SinoBen

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I have been thinking about alternatives to Christianity and atheism. In particular I have been wondering about Hinduism, Buddhism, or some sort of freelance investigation of magic, psi, and paranormal.

I imagine there are people here who have followed these paths and ultimately rejected them, and I was hoping you might share your experiences and reasons. I don't know very much about religion except for Christianity. I have been hoping to find some way to think about Christianity so that I can believe in it, but I am getting discouraged with that path. Atheism is fine except that I have a lot of experiences that suggest a supernatural dimension to reality.

It seems you are in search mode. But if you are willing to accept it, what you seek is right in front of you. In other words, I think you will waste precious time seeking alternatives when you are already on the right path. But God is patient.

Another way of looking at it is this: I was told that when bank tellers train to recognise counterfeit currency, they train by knowing genuine currency, not start looking at the various counterfeits. So I encourage you stay and study the Bible and faith in Jesus Christ deeper. A long time ago at university my main study was science, but I took a couple of interest subjects: Religious studies 101 and 102 which looked at quite a few world religions including Christianity. The funny thing is that I got very good marks for everything except the essay on Christianity. Professors encourage students to favour other religions, but watch out if you fail to criticise Christianity. Anyway.... I understand you wanting to explore, but they are.... fake news not good news. Decide carefully if you want to spend the time studying counterfeits.

I apologise in advance if my opinion seems harsh to other religions. I want you not to waste time.
 
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dzheremi

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Anyway there is a defensive nature that traditional Christians can have. Basically many of my fellow conservative believers are afraid to achnowedge that there might be something positive about another religion; because in doing so it would negative the exclusivity of Christianity. (As if were playing a zero sum game).

Do these fellow conservative believers not know the long history of doing exactly the opposite, and that this thereby established that behavior -- and not 'zero sum game defensiveness' -- as the more conservative position? I'm thinking here, of course, of things like the "Seeds of the Word" found in St. Justin Martyr (2nd Century AD), the treatise on the use of pagan literature by properly disposed Christians by St. Basil (4th century AD), etc. Particularly in Egypt -- which I imagine may resonate with you given your ecclesiastical journey -- the earlier generations of ethnically Coptic believers would have all come from pagan backgrounds, or at any rate received classical (Greek/Hellenistic/Pagan) educations. Heck, the Catechetical School at Alexandria was modeled after the preexisting Mouseion of that same city, which was established by the thoroughly Pagan Ptolemies.

Meh.

Anyway, OP:

I am 'lucky' in a way that even though I have never officially belonged to any other religion, I have been exposed to a lot of them. My mother was friends with the matriarch of one of our little town's only Jewish families, so they invited us to their Passover, and also let us cut down a tree from their land (they lived out in the woods) every year to be used as a Christmas tree. Very nice folks, these Jews. I never thought about conversion to their religion, however, and as you probably know, Judaism itself tends to discourage that. It is very much an archetypal 'ethnic' religion.

Later in my life, I had friends and family members who were Mormons, Muslims (both born and converts), Buddhists, Wiccans, and so on. So I've been exposed to all of that to varying degrees, though other than my minimal participation in the Passover that we were invited to when I was a child, I can't say I participated in any of them.

They all have their good and not-so-good sides. The Mormons and the Muslims, for instance, are both very strong on family values and are usually at least outwardly very friendly and kind, but theologically they are both completely out to lunch, self-contradictory, and obviously operate like "Cliff Notes" versions of earlier religions in an effort to legitimize themselves in the eyes of believers in those religions. And if you're paying attention and know their backgrounds and (probable) sources, it won't work.

Judaism is strong on tradition, but at least most Jews I have met are less strong about belief. One Jewish guy I knew in college even identified simultaneously as a Buddhist, because that's what he actually practiced (but he was still Jewish according to their law because his mother is Jewish; this is why there is a tradition of Jewish atheists).

Wiccans have an admirable reverence for nature and the power of it, but often wrongly see themselves as some kind of continuation of ancient pre-Christian (or, in the places where that religion rules, pre-Islamic) practices about which in reality there is actually scant evidence. So it's kind of hard to take seriously, because most of these 'Neo-Pagan' types, whether they identify as Wiccan or whatever else (I don't know or care to know all the subdivisions or types), are actually following religious ritual and practice that might be +/- 50 to 100 years old at most (hence it is properly termed Neo-Pagan). Also, I know this is going to sound very sexist, but I can't help but notice that at least in the United States, where I am, the vast majority of the people attracted to and professing these religions tend to be young girls or older women who fit a certain ugly stereotype of...I don't know how to say it...40 to 60-something cat-owning Lesbian bookstore proprietors? Something like that. Generally frumpy old ladies celebrating their lady-ness and personifying the earth as a womb and all this. I actually have an ex-girlfriend (definitely on the young side of the population; she's 30) who is into this, and to hear her talk about it it's a way of gaining "power", whatever that means. She is a high-level manager at a national company who makes very, very good money, lives independently in a very upscale town on the East Coast in a very nice apartment, etc. Not sure what "power" is missing, since she can basically go anywhere and do anything she wants, but there ya have it. All I'm meaning to say is that there's not a lot in it for a man (me, or I assume any other average dude) who isn't into the sacredness of Fallopian tubes or whatever, and doesn't see chanting in front of a bowl of yard waste on a folding table in the living room as a particularly effective way of gaining power or direction in life, or whatever these people are doing.

Sorry, that was probably incredibly harsh and rude, and certainly people could say and have said similar things about Christianity (Like my own grandmother: "So you drink some wine and eat a piece of bread and then what? That's stupid. Why would you want to be a part of that?"), but that is the reason why I would have to reject Neo-Paganism out of hand. It's not really based on anything, and it's hard not to see it as a silly kind of role playing of some sort that you can't even know whether or not you're doing it right (due to lack of primary sources), or that you're doing anything at all. Like how do you even know when you have "the power"? It'd be one thing if my friend's life was constantly awesome or whatever, but she's got the same problems as anyone, so I guess the spells either ain't working or she's not burning the right candles or I dunno what. Maybe there's some level internal change going on that no one would see, but then how do you know that's the Wiccan spells, and not professional therapy, medication, or any one of a million other things? I guess that's a question that can be asked of any 'mainstream' religion as well, though. I dunno. I just couldn't do it, personally.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Do these fellow conservative believers not know the long history of doing exactly the opposite, and that this thereby established that behavior -- and not 'zero sum game defensiveness' -- as the more conservative position?

On the conservative end of Protestant evangelicalism it is hard to say anything positive about another religion. The closest parallels were for people who studied martial arts had more of an idea of what discipliship might be like and use that analogy. Really it wasn't until I read Justin Marty'r Dialogue with Trypho and Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Way" where I could appreciate a different perspective. Of course it should be pointed out, even in Trypho, Justin Martyr does spend much more time developing the familiar negative narrative that the foreign religions and gods are spiritual counterfeits etc. And of course even Paul on Mar's Hill after talking about the Unknown god, does spend more time on the negative end of things (and justifiably so).
 
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dzheremi

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Well yes...because the point of the apologetic in either case (in all cases) isn't to simply praise the other religion and be done with it. :) But the whole "there's nothing good or true in any other religion, and never could be" thing seems rather modern -- certainly building upon the negative assessments of the apostles and other early saints, but forgetting/not knowing about whatever positive things they may have had to say. (I don't want to say it's because they've gone unread by those people, because I don't know that to be the case, but I have to imagine it is true for some of them, and maybe more true among the most strident of them than among others who have a more moderate view.)
 
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Pavel Mosko

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But the whole "there's nothing good or true in any other religion, and never could be" thing seems rather modern -- certainly building upon the negative assessments of the apostles and other early saints, but forgetting/not knowing about whatever positive things they may have had to say

The Western notion of Original Sin plays a lot into that. The idea that the Imago Dei was destroyed or completely corrupted is quite common. Not to mention the typical juridical way of seeing salvation especially from the Satisfaction theory of the Atonement starting with Anselm. These things seem to steer people in that direction.
 
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FireDragon76

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Well yes...because the point of the apologetic in either case (in all cases) isn't to simply praise the other religion and be done with it. :) But the whole "there's nothing good or true in any other religion, and never could be" thing seems rather modern -- certainly building upon the negative assessments of the apostles and other early saints, but forgetting/not knowing about whatever positive things they may have had to say. (I don't want to say it's because they've gone unread by those people, because I don't know that to be the case, but I have to imagine it is true for some of them, and maybe more true among the most strident of them than among others who have a more moderate view.)

It's a kind of overly defensive reaction to pluralism.

The Western notion of Original Sin plays a lot into that. The idea that the Imago Dei was destroyed or completely corrupted is quite common. Not to mention the typical juridical way of seeing salvation especially from the Satisfaction theory of the Atonement starting with Anselm. These things seem to steer people in that direction.

I think that's more of an Orthodox polemic that, at most, applies to churches that have very shallow theology. We do have an understanding of common grace or civil righteousness that bracket that, but perhaps many evangelical churches in the US and England just don't have that notion in their minds.

Plus more modern theologians in the Reformed tradition have backed away from the notion of the image of God being completely destroyed. It's hard to make sense of doctrines like human responsibility, otherwise.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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It's hard to make sense of doctrines like human responsibility, otherwise.

I agree on that! But I can vouch actually coming from the nondenominational charismatic end of things definitely the case. Those pastors never heard of Anselm I'm sure, but their sermons, especially on Easter were pure Anselm's satisfaction theory, not to mention playing up Original Sin themes even though likewise they were not schooled on the original source of the theology etc, they did parrot those kind of notions that they knew that were considered official and small o orthodox.
 
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FireDragon76

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I was talking to my therapist today briefly about goals in life (other than taking care of my cat). One possible goal I mentioned was to satisfy my curiosity about the existence or non-existence of supernatural phenomena. I have had some seemingly supernatural experiences, but I also have some psychosis experiences, and there are other issues like confirmation bias.

Spiritual experiences are perfectly normal and are not rare. I read a book on Americans spiritual attitudes a few years ago, I checked it out from the library. It's by Rodney Stark, it might be worth reading to get some perspective:

https://www.amazon.com/Americans-Re...gion&qid=1555030885&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull

I have had both negative and positive spiritual experiences. Neither one makes you crazy, necessarily. And sometimes, I have found the negative experiences had a silver lining of sorts. So, you need to be careful labeling yourself. It's possible you really do have a psychotic disorder, but it could also be that you are just perfectly normal but have undergone some intense religious experiences. I know your background is Orthodox and that kind of religion can put tremendous pressure on you. I also was involved in the Orthodox church, and I had a mental breakdown once in Holy Week and ended up in the hospital. So it doesn't make you wierd to have those kinds of experiences or even find that its too much for you.

One reason I like the Lutheran approach is because we don't focus too much on spiritual experiences and try to not put unrealistic expectations on people. As Pr. Nadia Bolz-Weber's jokes, we are "religious but not spiritual". That might sound boring, but it also means we are relatively low key and that's good if you are the potentially nervous and brooding type.
 
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FireDragon76

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I agree on that! But I can vouch actually coming from the nondenominational charismatic end of things definitely the case. Those pastors never heard of Anselm I'm sure, but their sermons, especially on Easter were pure Anselm's satisfaction theory, not to mention playing up Original Sin themes even though likewise they were not schooled on the original source of the theology etc, they did parrot those kind of notions that they knew that were considered official and small o orthodox.

Yeah, I think I know what you are talking about. Only in those kinds of churches can they turn Easter into Good Friday, Part II.

It reminds me of taking Lutheranism and stripping out all the nuance out of it. It's true that Lutheranism is relatively reductionistic in some ways, that Luther focused on a specific theme in the Christian tradition, but it's possible to take that to even more extremes and come away with a very shallow worldview.
 
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cloudyday2

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Sorry, that was probably incredibly harsh and rude, and certainly people could say and have said similar things about Christianity (Like my own grandmother: "So you drink some wine and eat a piece of bread and then what? That's stupid. Why would you want to be a part of that?"), but that is the reason why I would have to reject Neo-Paganism out of hand. It's not really based on anything, and it's hard not to see it as a silly kind of role playing of some sort that you can't even know whether or not you're doing it right (due to lack of primary sources), or that you're doing anything at all. Like how do you even know when you have "the power"? It'd be one thing if my friend's life was constantly awesome or whatever, but she's got the same problems as anyone, so I guess the spells either ain't working or she's not burning the right candles or I dunno what. Maybe there's some level internal change going on that no one would see, but then how do you know that's the Wiccan spells, and not professional therapy, medication, or any one of a million other things? I guess that's a question that can be asked of any 'mainstream' religion as well, though. I dunno. I just couldn't do it, personally.
Magic and psi (ESP) claim that the believer is primarily in control rather than some deity. (Of course some forms of magic claim spirits are acting on behalf of the magician which is more like Christian prayer - particularly prayer asking help from saints or angels.)

Anyway, the fact that the magician or psychic is in control opens up more opportunity for scientific study. The results are not so subject to the whim of some fickle deity.

Another appealing thing about magic and psi is the more hand-on approach. Rather than being told what is true and what is not true, the magician or psychic is probably expected to discover these things through experimentation.

The turn-off for me is the rituals. I imagine that rituals might be helpful to induce states of mind that allow for the magic or psi to happen (if anything supernatural actually happens), but in general rituals are not appealing to me.
 
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cloudyday2

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I have had both negative and positive spiritual experiences. Neither one makes you crazy, necessarily. And sometimes, I have found the negative experiences had a silver lining of sorts. So, you need to be careful labeling yourself. It's possible you really do have a psychotic disorder, but it could also be that you are just perfectly normal but have undergone some intense religious experiences. I know your background is Orthodox and that kind of religion can put tremendous pressure on you. I also was involved in the Orthodox church, and I had a mental breakdown once in Holy Week and ended up in the hospital. So it doesn't make you wierd to have those kinds of experiences or even find that its too much for you.
Assuming there is a supernatural dimension to our world, I suspect that psychological states play a role in a person's ability to experience and affect this extra dimension. Conversely, the experiences of the supernatural dimension usually change a person's psychological state temporarily. There can be a feedback loop where the effects in both directions are amplified until the person becomes psychotic.

The other possibility is that it is all psychological. And of course in some cases a person can be psychotic for purely psychological reasons without ruling-out the possibility that real supernatural experiences can play a role in other cases.

I would like to know what happened to me. I guess that is a common trait in people who go through things like that. Probably I will never know for certain.
 
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FireDragon76

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Assuming there is a supernatural dimension to our world, I suspect that psychological states play a role in a person's ability to experience and affect this extra dimension. Conversely, the experiences of the supernatural dimension usually change a person's psychological state temporarily. There can be a feedback loop where the effects in both directions are amplified until the person becomes psychotic.

The other possibility is that it is all psychological. And of course in some cases a person can be psychotic for purely psychological reasons without ruling-out the possibility that real supernatural experiences can play a role in other cases.

I would like to know what happened to me. I guess that is a common trait in people who go through things like that. Probably I will never know for certain.

The common thread I see is a desire to be in control of your experiences. Note what I bolded, I just don't think people have that much control over spiritual things at all like that. Genuine spiritual experiences just happen to people, you can't control or force them. Part of growing spiritually is relinquishing the need to be in control.


BTW, have you watched this video before?




It's obvious the Rev. Tracey Lind is being overly modest towards the middle of the video, knowing that people will doubt her experience's validity. It's obvious she believes she talked to God at a McDonald's. And I can tell you, she's not mentally ill. Lots of people have that experience, it's normal. Our vicar (associate pastor) we used to have had the exact same type of experience. He actually argued with God one night in college.

I can tell you, I believe the Rev. Lind's testimony. While I haven't heard God speak in words like that (most of my experiences involved intuition, changes in perception, or feeling drawn to do something), it seems congruent with the kinds of spiritual experiences of God people have.
 
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ananda

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Regarding #1, are you saying that you reject empirical reasons for belief in favor of logical reasons or is it only anecdotal reasons that you reject?
Regarding #2, what aspects of reality does each of the religions fail to explain?
Regarding #3, I'm probably being dense, but I didn't understand your meaning.
  1. #1 means I prioritize empirical reasons (proof through direct experience) over lesser forms of knowledge like logic or hearsay (evidence, e.g. "this book is evidence for my god!");
  2. #2 means that the system of thought should explain all aspects of experienced reality - from the most lofty issues to the most mundane - with a single, understandable core answer as a part of its philosophy which equally applies to them all;
  3. #3 means that the system of thought's end-goal (e.g. valhalla, heaven, eternal life, moksha, nibbana, etc.) should also be consistent with that core answer (from #2).
Contemplating #1, I rejected mainstream Christianity, Islam, priestly Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, Bahai, Zoroastrianism, Mahayana Buddhism, devotional Taoism, etc. They were mainly evidence-based systems: e.g. mostly scripture-based, etc. which posited core ideas central to their practice (e.g. omniscient deities, heavens, prophets, etc.) which I could not know for myself.

Next, contemplating #2, I rejected gnostic atheism, mystical Christianity, sramana Hinduism, Jainism, etc. Even though these systems were based more or less on personal, direct experience, they didn't provide an answer which explains all of experienced reality, from the most lofty to the most mundane experiences. For example, how does union with God or Brahman explain our need to use the bathroom? It doesn't. This essentially left philosophical Taoism & early Buddhism.

Finally, contemplating #3, I rejected philosophical Taoism, as its end-goal of immortality is not consistent with its core philosophy of achieving a balanced oneness with the Tao.

That left me with early Buddhism, which was #1 clearly & strongly based on direct experience of all levels of reality through a testable Path, #2 provided a single core answer which explains all of experienced reality (from "what is the source of my existential angst?" to "why do we need to use the bathroom?"), and #3 provided an end-goal (nibbana, cessation of discontentment/suffering) which is consistent with that single core answer (discontentment/suffering).
 
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cloudyday2

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The common thread I see is a desire to be in control of your experiences.
No, the common thread is a desire to UNDERSTAND my experiences. I sometimes wonder if I am supposed to respond to my experiences (as guidance for example) and by writing them off as madness I am missing my purpose in life.
 
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cloudyday2

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For example, how does union with God or Brahman explain our need to use the bathroom? It doesn't.
One theme of Hinduism is the idea that the Hindu is "one with everything" / "all is one" / "the entire universe can be seen in the tiniest grain of rice" / etc. Eating and defecating is a reminder of those "one with everything" ideas on a daily basis IMO. (As a disclaimer, my knowledge of Hinduism doesn't go much further than hearing these types of slogans and skimming the Bhagavad Gita one time. That being said, I have read that the common requirement for people to call their beliefs Hindu is a reverence for the Vedas (much like reverence for the Bible). That might be another reason to dismiss Hinduism by your standards?)

Another distinction I see between Hinduism and Buddhism is the idea that "Buddhism is Hinduism for export". Hinduism is hard to decouple from the people of India - much like Judaism. The ancient definition of religion was the culture of an ethnicity rather than a set of truths that could be accepted and practiced by any ethnicity. Hinduism fits that ancient definition of religion better than the modern definition. That is probably another reason for non-Indians to reject Hinduism.
 
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FireDragon76

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No, the common thread is a desire to UNDERSTAND my experiences. I sometimes wonder if I am supposed to respond to my experiences (as guidance for example) and by writing them off as madness I am missing my purpose in life.

Dabbling in the paranormal isn't going to help you to that goal, since in the end the issue is more philosophical and existential in nature. Right now, you may be letting other people define your experiences for you.

And people engaged in magic are simply deluding themselves, as dzheremi pointed out. That kind of control of nature is unreal. Don't confuse prayer with magic. I can no more control you by telling you what to do than I can control God by telling him what to do.
 
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cloudyday2

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Dabbling in the paranormal isn't going to help you to that goal, since in the end the issue is more philosophical and existential in nature.
No, the proof is in the pudding. No pudding, no proof. Philosophers never get beyond critiquing the recipe books. The kitchen is too hot for the philosophers, and they don't want to risk getting flour on their clothes. I say, "fooey on philosophy". Philosophy gave us the stagnated science of the middle ages. It wasn't until Kepler and others were willing to roll-up their sleeves and take measurements that science began to flourish.

And people engaged in magic are simply deluding themselves, as dzheremi pointed out. That kind of control of nature is unreal. Don't confuse prayer with magic. I can no more control you by telling you what to do than I can control God by telling him what to do.
That would be a nice thought, and then I could confidently be an atheist and put my mind to more important questions. Unfortunately, I suspect there is something to paranormal. Not to exaggerate, but I have seen too many weird things (say 10 incidents) to be a confident skeptic - scattered throughout my life and usually when I was healthy mentally. On the other hand, I don't understand why the evidence for paranormal is always so vaporous. I have wondered if there is something intrinsic to paranormal that makes evidence impossible, but I can't put my finger on anything. Why do I experience things, but there is no evidence to convince skeptics about any of these things?
 
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No, the proof is in the pudding. No pudding, no proof. Philosophers never get beyond critiquing the recipe books. The kitchen is too hot for the philosophers, and they don't want to risk getting flour on their clothes. I say, "fooey on philosophy". Philosophy gave us the stagnated science of the middle ages. It wasn't until Kepler and others were willing to roll-up their sleeves and take measurements that science began to flourish.


That would be a nice thought, and then I could confidently be an atheist and put my mind to more important questions. Unfortunately, I suspect there is something to paranormal. Not to exaggerate, but I have seen enough weird things (say 10 incidents) to be a confident skeptic - scattered throughout my life and usually when I was healthy mentally. On the other hand, I don't understand why the evidence for paranormal is always so vaporous. I have wondered if there is something intrinsic to paranormal that makes evidence impossible, but I can't put my finger on anything. Why do I experience things, but there is no evidence to convince skeptics about any of these things?

There is an old saying "For those who believe, no proof is needed. For those who do not believe, no proof is sufficient".

I think I read that last in a film I watched years ago, Song of Bernadette, but I have heard it before (good film BTW, it's also one of my pastor's favorites). The film is about the alleged appearance of the Virgin Mary in Lourdes, France, but it also, on a deeper level, is a meditation on faith in a skeptical age. It might be worth looking up.
 
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