The Trinity

Sorry if any confusion, that was meant as a response to Trevor.

Hebrews 1:2 says the Son was there at creation.

Hebrews 1:2: "has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through WHOM also He made the worlds;"
This is the exact same thing being talked about in the following about the Word:
John 1:2-3: "He was in the beginning WITH God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

harko said:

What is your belief of the trinity that helps you understand the 3 in 1 concept of God.
The Father is not the son , The Son and the Father is not the Holy Spirit, Yet all are one God.
How do you with our limited human knowledge of God get through this one?

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this doesn't explain the Trinity but it does help explain the necessity of the Trinity and love is the answer.

1-in-1 (Father) love cannot exist because there is no relationship

2-in-1 (Father ⇄ Son) There is now a relationship but love is imperfect because the relationship is not contrasted. All there would be a head/submitter relationship. The Son could only say that love is whatever the Father tells him so without contrast it is imperfect.

3-in-1 (Father ⇄ Son, Father ⇄ HS, Son ⇄ HS, Father-Son-HS) For the first time relationship is contrasted and love is can exist perfectly. With just the Father there is no relationship, with just Father/Son there is only 1 relationship and love is imperfect but with Father-Son-HS there is effectively 4 relationships perfectly contrasted, each with each other and all in 1 relationship.

4-in-1 why not add more? what makes 3 the perfect number. 4 does not offer anything unique to the relationship and it would be adding on to whatever already exists in perfection and taking excess would question his perfection. You can't actually add to perfection you can only take away, so adding more to God would corrupt him.

Greetings again mister rogers,

mister rogers said:

Hebrews 1:2: "has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through WHOM also He made the worlds;"
This is the exact same thing being talked about in the following about the Word:
John 1:2-3: "He was in the beginning WITH God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

Click to expand...

I appreciate your response, but I usually approach the subject of Jesus from the perspective of the narrative and teachings of Luke chapters 1 and 2 and I cannot reconcile these with the Trinity claims.

As far as Hebrews 1:2 “worlds” is literally “ages”. Thus through God’s Son all the Ages were made, whether Antediluvian, Patriarchal, Mosaic, Gentile or future Messianic, in the sense that in all His arrangements God had His Son in view. Thus all the ages, past, present and future were designed by God with Christ in mind. One suggestion of the meaning is "with a view to whom, He (God) made the ages".

I also believe that the Bible clearly teaches that Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator, for example Psalm 8:1-3. Paul uses the phrase “all things” adjacent to the phrase that you are suggesting:
Hebrews 1:2 (KJV): Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This is quoting and alluding to the following:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Jesus’ origin is that he has been made lower than the angels and he then suffered and died and he was then raised from the dead and exalted to inherit all things. Paul expounds Psalm 8:4-6 more extensively in Hebrews 2 and speaks of the Age to Come.

Kind regards
Trevor

TrevorL said:

Greetings again mister rogers,
I appreciate your response, but I usually approach the subject of Jesus from the perspective of the narrative and teachings of Luke chapters 1 and 2 and I cannot reconcile these with the Trinity claims.

As far as Hebrews 1:2 “worlds” is literally “ages”. Thus through God’s Son all the Ages were made, whether Antediluvian, Patriarchal, Mosaic, Gentile or future Messianic, in the sense that in all His arrangements God had His Son in view. Thus all the ages, past, present and future were designed by God with Christ in mind. One suggestion of the meaning is "with a view to whom, He (God) made the ages".

I also believe that the Bible clearly teaches that Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator, for example Psalm 8:1-3. Paul uses the phrase “all things” adjacent to the phrase that you are suggesting:
Hebrews 1:2 (KJV): Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This is quoting and alluding to the following:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Jesus’ origin is that he has been made lower than the angels and he then suffered and died and he was then raised from the dead and exalted to inherit all things. Paul expounds Psalm 8:4-6 more extensively in Hebrews 2 and speaks of the Age to Come.

Kind regards
Trevor

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Regardless of world/ages (either one is prior to the incarnation), you say "through whom" means "with a view to whom" or "with him in mind". But that seems to me to be trying to change what it says to give it a different meaning. I just accept what it says. What about John 1:2-3?

Thought I'd share this too, but I'd like to get to John 1:2-3.
From an article I'm reading:
Note: in passages such as John 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2, 10-12, the “Son” is clearly presented as agent of creation, the Creator Himself. Specifically, in John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2 and 2:10, the Greek preposition dia (“through”) is followed by a pronoun (autou, “Him”) in the *genitive* case (or possessive case). Grammatically, when dia is followed by the genitive (as in these passages), the preposition indicates “agency” (cf. Daniel B. Wallace, GGBB, 368; J. Harold Greenlee, A Concise Exegetical Grammar of New Testament Greek, 5th ed. 31; A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, 4:478-79; and cf. also Walter Bauer’s, A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament, 3rd ed. [hereafter BDAG], 225). Hence, exegetically these passages do n

Since God is omnipresent (everywhere at once),
why is it so difficult to see Him as only
3 Manifestations of God with 3 different names?

I would have NO problem seeing Him as many
Persons (or Manifestations), all with different names!

Almighty God is limitless in His power, etc. etc.
He can do whatever He wishes ...
like reveal Himself in as many forms as He wishes
with as many Names as he wishes!

Greetings again mister rogers,

mister rogers said:

Regardless of world/ages (either one is prior to the incarnation), you say "through whom" means "with a view to whom" or "with him in mind". But that seems to me to be trying to change what it says to give it a different meaning. I just accept what it says.

Click to expand...

If we use the English word “through” then we would end up with your view that Jesus or God the Son is the direct agent in the creation or the ages, but my Enhanced Strongs seems to give equal weight to the second alternative “on account of”.
1 through. 1a of place. 1a1 with. 1a2 in. 1b of time. 1b1 throughout. 1b2 during. 1c of means. 1c1 by. 1c2 by the means of. 2 through. 2a the ground or reason by which something is or is not done. 2a1 by reason of. 2a2 on account of. 2a3 because of for this reason. 2a4 therefore. 2a5 on this account.

Also you seem to be ignoring the context of Hebrews 1:1 where the subject is God, and this is defining God as God the Father who has previously spoken through the prophets in the past in many portions and ways, but in the last days he has spoken in a Son. There is here no mention of a Trinity, but of the One God, and a Son, and this is teaching that Jesus is the Son of God. The whole theme of the letter is the contrast between the partial and temporary revelation in the Law to the complete revelation in God's Son in the last days of Judah's commonwealth. All the ages find their focus in this full revelation in Jesus. It is not speaking of the natural or Genesis creation.

Also it speaks of Jesus becoming the heir, but if Jesus is the creator, then he is already the Lord and owner. Psalm 8 speaks of Yahweh being the Lord of heaven and earth, and then giving birth to Jesus to become the heir. Thus Jesus is not the creator.

What about John 1:2-3?

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Jesus does not appear until John 1:14.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jonathan Mathews said:

Also, if you know how to break down the Word of God correctly, you can see the 3 aspects of God in His name.

God the Father = I AM who I AM (HaYah asher HaYah in Hebrew) Exodus 3:14
God the Son, Yah-shuah = I AM Salvation
God the Spirit, Christos = Annointing/Annointed

Jesus Christ (Yahshua Hamashiach) came in the Name of the Father (Yah). His atoning flesh and blood sacrifice is our Salvation (Shua), and He had the Anointing Holy Spirit (Christos).

The Word of Truth is "Jesus Christ" and THIS is how you rightly divide that Word into each of the 3 aspects of God's character.

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Christos, the Greek word meaning "anointed" and is used to translate the Hebrew meshiach (Messiah), does not refer to the Holy Spirit. It is used in a general sense and in a specific sense in the Old Testament, for example King Cyrus is called "messiah" in the Old Testament, all kings and priests were "messiahs" in a general sense because they were anointed for specific tasks. But the specific sense refers to the one promised of the lineage of King David. As Christians we believe that one is Jesus of Nazareth, and so we call Him Jesus Christ.

He is the Messiah, that is His title, as the King Messiah, the Son of David.

So, no, Christos does not refer to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a distinct Person from the Son. At our Lord's baptism we have three mentioned: The Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all distinct.

-CryptoLutheran

BCsenior said:

Since God is omnipresent (everywhere at once),
why is it so difficult to see Him as only
3 Manifestations of God with 3 different names?

I would have NO problem seeing Him as many
Persons (or Manifestations), all with different names!

Almighty God is limitless in His power, etc. etc.
He can do whatever He wishes ...
like reveal Himself in as many forms as He wishes
with as many Names as he wishes!

Click to expand...

No, God is not three manifestations with three names.

The Most Holy and Blessed Trinity is three Divine Persons. The Father is not a mask God wears, the Father is eternally Almighty God. The Son is not a mask, He is like His Father eternal and Almighty God. The same with the Holy Spirit.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are NOT manifestations, appearances, names, masks, or mere perceptions of God; they are three real, actual, distinct Divine Persons who are of one undivided and uncreated Essence. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Three who are God, the one and only God. One in the unity of the Divine Being, without separation or separation. One God, Holy Trinity, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.

Anything else is rank heresy. And no, this is not up for debate, at least not here.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Anything else is rank heresy.
And no, this is not up for debate,
at least not here.

Click to expand...

Is this rank heresy also? lol ...

The word clearly says:
-- the Word came down from heaven
-- Gabriel instructed that ...
the Word made flesh was to be CALLED:
"Jesus" (Lk 1:31)
"the Son of the Highest" (Lk 1:32)
"the Son of God" (Lk 1:35)

Why didn't Gabriel say the Word WAS these people?
Because God desired that we use these names
to describe the Word made flesh.

TrevorL said:

Greetings again mister rogers,If we use the English word “through” then we would end up with your view that Jesus or God the Son is the direct agent in the creation or the ages, but my Enhanced Strongs seems to give equal weight to the second alternative “on account of”.
1 through. 1a of place. 1a1 with. 1a2 in. 1b of time. 1b1 throughout. 1b2 during. 1c of means. 1c1 by. 1c2 by the means of. 2 through. 2a the ground or reason by which something is or is not done. 2a1 by reason of. 2a2 on account of. 2a3 because of for this reason. 2a4 therefore. 2a5 on this account.

Also you seem to be ignoring the context of Hebrews 1:1 where the subject is God, and this is defining God as God the Father who has previously spoken through the prophets in the past in many portions and ways, but in the last days he has spoken in a Son. There is here no mention of a Trinity, but of the One God, and a Son, and this is teaching that Jesus is the Son of God. The whole theme of the letter is the contrast between the partial and temporary revelation in the Law to the complete revelation in God's Son in the last days of Judah's commonwealth. All the ages find their focus in this full revelation in Jesus. It is not speaking of the natural or Genesis creation.

Also it speaks of Jesus becoming the heir, but if Jesus is the creator, then he is already the Lord and owner. Psalm 8 speaks of Yahweh being the Lord of heaven and earth, and then giving birth to Jesus to become the heir. Thus Jesus is not the creator.Jesus does not appear until John 1:14.

Kind regards
Trevor

Click to expand...

All interesting. Still haven't heard an explanation for John 1:2-3 though.

BCsenior said:

Since God is omnipresent (everywhere at once),
why is it so difficult to see Him as only
3 Manifestations of God with 3 different names?

I would have NO problem seeing Him as many
Persons (or Manifestations), all with different names!

Almighty God is limitless in His power, etc. etc.
He can do whatever He wishes ...
like reveal Himself in as many forms as He wishes
with as many Names as he wishes!

Click to expand...

As you said, he can do whatever he wishes. And that's the point. If the Bible, GOD's word, says he is a certain way, that settles it, no matter what we think about it. No matter if we think he should be more like what would be easier for us to understand. How God is is his prerogative. That being said, God's word about himself is clear (again, no matter if we do or don't understand it all) that God is a triunity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

harko said:

What is your belief of the trinity that helps you understand the 3 in 1 concept of God.
The Father is not the son , The Son and the Father is not the Holy Spirit, Yet all are one God.
How do you with our limited human knowledge of God get through this one?

Click to expand...

I take it for granted that the exact nature of God is beyond human comprehension, and that being told what it is in general terms only, as the Bible does, is sufficient.

There is but One God, but his nature is more complex than that--more involved than our experience here and now can entirely explain. That doesn't bother me at all.

BCsenior said:

Is this rank heresy also? lol ...

The word clearly says:
-- the Word came down from heaven
-- Gabriel instructed that ...
the Word made flesh was to be CALLED:
"Jesus" (Lk 1:31)
"the Son of the Highest" (Lk 1:32)
"the Son of God" (Lk 1:35)

Why didn't Gabriel say the Word WAS these people?
Because God desired that we use these names
to describe the Word made flesh.

Click to expand...

That's not "people", that is the one eternal Person of the Word, the only-begotten Son of the Father, whose name is Jesus Christ our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

That's not "people", that is the one eternal Person of the Word, the only-begotten Son of the Father, whose name is Jesus Christ our Lord.

Click to expand...

They say this Person was "fully human"!
"Jesus" (Lk 1:31)
"the Son of the Highest" (Lk 1:32)
"the Son of God" (Lk 1:35)

I'm still waiting to hear what John 1:1-2 means by anyone who thinks the Word is not a distinct person from the Father. It says HE was in the beginning WITH God.

But it also says, "and the Word was God."

and if, by "person," you mean a different entity, that is precluded right in Genesis.

And just as much I'd like to hear why Jesus in John 17:5 said himself he was in the beginning with the Father and shared in his glory then.