notreligus

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Interesting post.

That's not British Israelism, however.
I did not say this was the same as British Israeism. Re-read what I said.
I wonder what people like that think about the fact that Our Lord Himself was not white ......
Jesus is God Who came in a human body to reconcile mankind to God Almighty. He came to the Jews first, AS A JEW, who kept the Law to perfection such that He would fulfill the Law. He is not a Jew; Again, He is God. He is a Person of our Triune God.
 
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Dave-W

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He came to the Jews first, AS A JEW, who kept the Law to perfection such that He would fulfill the Law. He is not a Jew;
Of course He is a Jew.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

John 1:11
He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
 
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Chesterton

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No.

"Aryan" was around a long time before WW2. But it was hitler who raised the definition to mythical status.
Yes I know it was around, but it was a theory which has been discredited. I don't know why anyone, much less Jews, would seem to endorse the idea by using the word.
 
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Robban

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That means his cheeks were flushed. It says NOTHING about his hair or eyes.

No.
At first Samuel was doubtful, he thought to himself,
"This one will shed blood as did the redheaded Esau."
(Midrash Rabbah , Bereishit 63:89)
 
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Albion

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I did not say this was the same as British Israeism. Re-read what I said.
No, you did not explicitly say that it was the same.

However, you breezed several different movements and terms past the reader without making any distinction between them, thus giving the impression to the reader that they all fall under the same criticism that you offered and might, in fact, be interchangeable terms.

See here, for example:

If you've heard of the Christian Identity Movement or the British Israelism Movement...
 
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Dave-W

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No.
At first Samuel was doubtful, he thought to himself,
"This one will shed blood as did the redheaded Esau."
(Midrash Rabbah , Bereishit 63:89)
Sorry, there is nothing in the actual Tenach that says either David or Esav were red headed.
 
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Robban

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Sorry, there is nothing in the actual Tenach that says either David or Esav were red headed.

Gen 25:25,
And the first one emerged ruddy;
he was completely covered like a coat of hair, and they named him Esau.

(Rashi)
Ruddy-that is a sign that he will be a person who sheds blood.

Why would Samuel doubt whether David could be worthy of
the Kingship,a forerunner of the dynasty that would lead the Jewish people to the end of time?

nevertheless G-d saw, G-d commanded Samuel,

"My anointed one is standing before you, and you remain seated?"


After all seven sons of Yishai had passed before Samuel,
none had been chosen.

Note well, Samuel did not ask if there were more sons,

he asked, "Are all these all the lads?"

Because Yishai would have answered, Yes.

David was not given status of a son,

He was treated as an out cast, for the first 28 years of his life.


But then I do not care if he had blue hair.

David would still be David.
 
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notreligus

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No, you did not explicitly say that it was the same.

However, you breezed several different movements and terms past the reader without making any distinction between them, thus giving the impression to the reader that they all fall under the same criticism that you offered and might, in fact, be interchangeable terms.

See here, for example:
Last try...

Yes I breezed different movements - the ones this thread is not about. End.
 
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notreligus

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Of course He is a Jew.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

John 1:11
He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
We'll see if He's wearing a Kippah.
 
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notreligus

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Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--
Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
Eph 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
Eph 2:21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
Eph 2:22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

God has one people. Before the foundation of the world God envisioned the Church.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.
Heb 9:2 For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place.
Heb 9:3 Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place,
Heb 9:4 having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Heb 9:5 Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
Heb 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing
Heb 9:9 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,
Heb 9:10 but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
Heb 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

I will never agree with anyone who is trying to claim that God reconciled mankind by a people and did not reconcile mankind by Grace through what His son has done.

This is the Gospel:

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
Rom 5:4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
Rom 5:5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
Rom 5:6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person--though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die--
Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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Dave-W

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We'll see if He's wearing a Kippah.
the-wailing-wall.jpg


This is the picture of our Lord that hangs on our wall.
 
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notreligus

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"In Christ"....Note that this term is used in the New Testament many, many times. This denotes being in a fixed position with Christ, a restful position. We Believers may rest in Him. It is as a marriage between Christ and the Believer. I have read Messianic positions which state that Christ has two wives. They try to force their way into being wife Number One and the Gentile is Wife Number Two, the servant of Wife Number One. I wish that Christians would examine what Messianics believe. They just assume that they know. Jesus Christ was present at Creation. In Genesis 3:21 we find that God Almighty has foretold what His Pre-Existent Son was going to do to reconcile mankind back to Him.

Adam and Eve were created, not as Jews, but as man and wife and until they chose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil over God's single commandment there was nothing in the way of their relationship with the Father.

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."
Gen 3:17 And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
Gen 3:18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Gen 3:21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.
 
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Dave-W

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I have read Messianic positions which state that Christ has two wives. They try to force their way into being wife Number One and the Gentile is Wife Number Two, the servant of Wife Number One. I wish that Christians would examine what Messianics believe.
I have been around the Messianic movement for over 20 years and I have yet to find ANYONE, let alone our best theologians, who say anything like that.

FAKE NEWS.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So, what was He? Black, Asian? :scratch:

Actually, yeah, He was technically Asian. The Middle East is technically Asia. If you mean what skin color He was, well the most likely answer is that He was brown, as people from that part of the world tend to be brown.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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I did not say this was the same as British Israeism. Re-read what I said.

Jesus is God Who came in a human body to reconcile mankind to God Almighty. He came to the Jews first, AS A JEW, who kept the Law to perfection such that He would fulfill the Law. He is not a Jew; Again, He is God. He is a Person of our Triune God.

God and man. So yes, He is a Jew.

The Christian religion is that we worship a brown-skinned Jewish carpenter from Nazareth as God Incarnate.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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trophy33

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as people from that part of the world tend to be brown.
Today. Also Greeks are dark haired today, but were blond and blue eyed during the Alexander the Great era. Then they got mixed with Turks and this is the result.

We can never tell how somebody looked like 2,000 years ago just because he was a half Jew.
 
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Dave-W

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Today. Also Greek are dark haired today, but where blond and blue eyed during the Alexander the Great era. Then they got mixed with Turks and this is the result.

We can never tell how somebody looked like 2,000 years ago just because he was a half Jew.
So why do you want HIM to be light skinned?
 
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trophy33

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So why do you want HIM to be light skinned?
Not sure if I want Him to be light skinned, without typical Jewish big nose etc., it does not matter too much how He looked liked 2,000 years ago.

But its a traditional depiction of Him and because He is a prototype for all humanity, I think there is no need to change it and make Him look in the way of the most extreme today's middle eastern/arabic ethnicity
 
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Dave-W

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[QUOTE="myst33, post: 73853504, member: 414763
But its a traditional depiction of Him and because He is a prototype for all humanity, I think there is no need to change it and make Him look in the way of the most extreme today's middle eastern/arabic ethnicity[/QUOTE]
“Traditional depiction” by Europeans, and mostly 19th century Germans. And they had their reasons to make Him NOT look Jewish.

I see no reason to keep it.
 
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“Traditional depiction” by Europeans, and mostly 19th century Germans. And they had their reasons to make Him NOT look Jewish.
I see no reason to keep it.
Why dont you want Him to look European?

There is no typical "Jewish" look you can ascribe to Jesus. Many Iranians, for example, look more European than many Greeks etc.
 
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