Traditions of men (continued from TAW)

Root of Jesse

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If you wear a scapular and think that you will escape from the torments of hell by doing so, that is another gospel and false and a great error that many practice today.

on the scapular it says

"Whoever dies clothed in this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire"

that denies the work of Christ on the cross for our sin. No man can be saved by wearing a piece of cloth with words on it. That is another gospel.

We must keep in memory the gospel (1 Cor 15:1-5) to be saved in the end

Yet, as I understand many so called "popes" have worn one.
I guess you have to understand what 'clothed in this scapular' means. To die in the membership of Mary's family is the one condition. Now, in order to so die, having been validly enrolled in the Confraternity by a Carmelite or a duly authorized priest, one must die clothed in the sign of membership. This Sign of membership may be the large Scapular of the religious Habit, the small Scapular, or the Scapular Medal; all have been recognized by the Sovereign Pontiffs as valid signs of that membership which the Mother of God rewards by an absolute assurance of final contrition and perseverance. Hence the main requisite is valid enrollment. One must voluntarily join Mary's great confraternity through the hands of an authorized priest. A priest obtains his faculties from the Carmelite Order or from the Holy See.

It's not the scapular itself that helps the wearer, it's his intention to consecrate himself to Mary's family. Which includes Jesus. It in no way denies the work of Christ. As I keep saying, whether you believe it or not, Mary takes our requests to Jesus.
 
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Root of Jesse

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It does take away from the work of Christ on the cross. I don't think there is anyway around saying so. There are many "promises" offered for praying the rosary, novena, or practicing certain devotions/ meditations, or for wearing a medal or a scapular.
Just reciting a rosary or novena, or even just attending Mass without the right intention does nothing. Same with wearing a medal. There has to be intent in your heart to be devoted to God, His Son, His mother.
 
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Root of Jesse

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the church is not a man made building, but a living body made up of lively stones, a spiritual house, the body of Christ as scripture says. Never is a man made building of brick and mortar called the church that Jesus is building.
There's the distinction. I said A parish church, you said THE church.
 
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Root of Jesse

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if the gathering is too big all cannot share their gifts with eachother easily. There is wisdom in a home meeting deliberately smaller, so that all can have a meal and share their gifts and edify one another as they are commanded to do in scripture (1 Cor 14:26-28 KJV)
So you don't believe we do small group activities, like bible studies and educational events? There is wisdom in small group activities, and we do that. ALL THE TIME.
 
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Root of Jesse

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It does take away from the work of Christ on the cross. I don't think there is anyway around saying so. There are many "promises" offered for praying the rosary, novena, or practicing certain devotions/ meditations, or for wearing a medal or a scapular.
I don't think anything takes away from the work of Christ, personally. What matters is why you do something. If you wear an amulet thinking it's going to save you, that's idolatry. If you wear a scapular, which represents a religious habit, and puts you in a worship family, and you pray with that family and work with that family, you're doing the work of Christ.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I guess you have to understand what 'clothed in this scapular' means. To die in the membership of Mary's family is the one condition. Now, in order to so die, having been validly enrolled in the Confraternity by a Carmelite or a duly authorized priest, one must die clothed in the sign of membership. This Sign of membership may be the large Scapular of the religious Habit, the small Scapular, or the Scapular Medal; all have been recognized by the Sovereign Pontiffs as valid signs of that membership which the Mother of God rewards by an absolute assurance of final contrition and perseverance. Hence the main requisite is valid enrollment. One must voluntarily join Mary's great confraternity through the hands of an authorized priest. A priest obtains his faculties from the Carmelite Order or from the Holy See.

It's not the scapular itself that helps the wearer, it's his intention to consecrate himself to Mary's family. Which includes Jesus. It in no way denies the work of Christ. As I keep saying, whether you believe it or not, Mary takes our requests to Jesus.
Such confusion and man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect that there is not much more to say about this horrible error.

Just read the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-5 and see that there is nothing added to that gospel.
 
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ChicanaRose

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I don't think anything takes away from the work of Christ, personally. What matters is why you do something. If you wear an amulet thinking it's going to save you, that's idolatry. If you wear a scapular, which represents a religious habit, and puts you in a worship family, and you pray with that family and work with that family, you're doing the work of Christ.

I am aware that Scapular must be invested. But it implies Mary is necessary to get to Christ. I feel it creates dependence on Mary rather than on Christ.
 
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ChicanaRose

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Is the church on some level, aware of the danger/ risk of superstitions associated with fixation on the saints and the sacramentals? Do you think that perhaps, the new rite of celebrating the saints represents a kind of reformation that the Church could be undergoing?

The alternative prayer under the new rite seems to give more glory to God than to the saints:

"God our Father, source of all holiness, the work of your hand is manifest in your saints...may we who aspire to have part in their joy…having shared their faith on earth we may also know their peace in your kingdom.”

Source
Costa, Nathan. “‘For All the Saints’: A Feast for All People and All Time.” Worship 81, no.6 (2007)
 
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Root of Jesse

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I am aware that Scapular must be invested. But it implies Mary is necessary to get to Christ. I feel it creates dependence on Mary rather than on Christ.
I don't believe it does. Mary may be helpful to get to Christ, but is she necessary? Did Mary really need to ask Jesus to convert water into wine? I don't depend on Mary, but I do believe she always points us to Christ.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Is the church on some level, aware of the danger/ risk of superstitions associated with fixation on the saints and the sacramentals? Do you think that perhaps, the new rite of celebrating the saints represents a kind of reformation that the Church could be undergoing?

The alternative prayer under the new rite seems to give more glory to God than to the saints:

"God our Father, source of all holiness, the work of your hand is manifest in your saints...may we who aspire to have part in their joy…having shared their faith on earth we may also know their peace in your kingdom.”

Source
Costa, Nathan. “‘For All the Saints’: A Feast for All People and All Time.” Worship 81, no.6 (2007)
Revelation shows us that our prayers to saints are always brought to God Himself. It is important for anyone to understand that the miracles and answered prayers are always from God. Our Saints are really just people we can look up to when we experience similar circumstances. For example, St. Peregrin is the patron saint of cancer patients.
His story is St Peregrine - Cancer saint
If you're a cancer patienty, your prayer is, or should be, to live as he did in the face of his infirmities. God knows your suffering already and will heal you, if he's not ready for you yet.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Such confusion and man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect that there is not much more to say about this horrible error.

Just read the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-5 and see that there is nothing added to that gospel.
It is impossible to make the word of God 'of no effect'. Sorry to inform you.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Right,, and his mother, above all others did the will of His Father who is in heaven. The Church is his mother, and his brethren.

"Mother and child worship was the basis of the ancient religions. In the various religions of the world, the same system of worship was perpetuated under different names. In Egypt , the mother and child were worshiped as Isis and Osiris or Horus, in India as Isi and Iswara, in China and Japan as the mother goddess Shing-moo with child, in Greece as Ceres or Irene and Plutus, in Rome as Fortuna and Jupitor-puer, or Venus and Adurnis, and in Scandinavia as Frigga and Balder. The mother and child were worshiped in Babylon as Ishtar and Tammuz, and in Phoenicia, as Ashtoreth and Baal. Moreover, the child was worshiped as both husband and son of the mother goddess
 
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LoveofTruth

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It is impossible to make the word of God 'of no effect'. Sorry to inform you.
Again and again you are corrected

Mark 7:13. Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”

Matthew 15:6. And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
 
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Root of Jesse

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"Mother and child worship was the basis of the ancient religions. In the various religions of the world, the same system of worship was perpetuated under different names. In Egypt , the mother and child were worshiped as Isis and Osiris or Horus, in India as Isi and Iswara, in China and Japan as the mother goddess Shing-moo with child, in Greece as Ceres or Irene and Plutus, in Rome as Fortuna and Jupitor-puer, or Venus and Adurnis, and in Scandinavia as Frigga and Balder. The mother and child were worshiped in Babylon as Ishtar and Tammuz, and in Phoenicia, as Ashtoreth and Baal. Moreover, the child was worshiped as both husband and son of the mother goddess
So what? The basis of Christianity is ancient religion as well. The fact that in Egypt, India, etc. they have some similar worship tradition in no way negates ours. We believe Jesus is God, and His mother os to be honored. Not worshiped. WE DO NOT WORSHIP MARY.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Again and again you are corrected

Mark 7:13. Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”

Matthew 15:6. And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Jesus was speaking specifically to the Pharisees in Mark 7 and in Matthew 15. He was speaking of watering down the Commandments with the 613 laws.
The fact is that by honoring Mary we magnify the Lord (as she herself said her soul did).
 
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LoveofTruth

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Jesus was speaking specifically to the Pharisees in Mark 7 and in Matthew 15. He was speaking of watering down the Commandments with the 613 laws.
The fact is that by honoring Mary we magnify the Lord (as she herself said her soul did).
Just admit your error in your words. You made a statement I showed how it was wrong. And yes the Pharisees are like many religious people today who make the word of a God of no effect by thier traditions.

I could show you how many today make the word of God of no effect in thier gatherungs.

Just by not allowing the body to edify itself every time they gather where all are commanded to walk in 1 Cor 14:26-38 and instead they set up a one man over all exalted on a thing called an alter, where a man dominates and goes through a form and unbiblical ritual makes the word of God (1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,12, Eph 4:11-16, Col 3:16, Romans 12:1-8, etc etc) of no effect.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Just admit your error in your words. You made a statement I showed how it was wrong. And yes the Pharisees are like many religious people today who make the word of a God of no effect by thier traditions.

I could show you how many today make the word of God of no effect in thier gatherungs.

Just by not allowing the body to edufy tsekf every time they gather where all are commanded to walk in 1 Cor 14:26-38 and instead they set up a one man over all exalted on a thing called an alter, where a man dominates and goes through a form and unbiblical ritual makes the word of God (1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,12, Eph 4:11-16, Col 3:16, Romans 12:1-8, etc etc) of no effect.
Every element, and practically every word of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is Biblical. But with your spew of obvious hatred, I'll cut off this conversation.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Every element, and practically every word of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is Biblical. But with your spew of obvious hatred, I'll cut off this conversation.
where is the part "Lord accept this sacrifice at our hands"

and where do we see a man over all called a priest doing such sacrifice in the church? And were do we see the body sitting in pews facing forward to the exalt man or priest on a unbiblical altar and not participating in the meetings using all their spiritual gifts? Where do we see the body not able to function in EVERY meeting and share doctrines revelations prophecies etc?
 
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~Zao~

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where is the part Lord accept this sacrifice at our hands"

and where do we see a man over all called a priest doing such sacrifice in the church? And were do we see the body sitting in pews facing forward to the exalt man or priest on a unbiblical altar and not participating in the meetings using all their spiritual gifts? Where do we see the body not able to function in EVERY meeting and share doctrines revelations prophecies etc?
Those are because of the restraints on gifts to which the Pharisees possessed the keys to but refused admittance to the practice and development of, lest they lose the funding of privilege to which they thought was their due. Honor to honour, fear to fear, and dues to due.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Those are because of the restraints on gifts to which the Pharisees possessed the keys to but refused admittance to the practice and development of, lest they lose the funding of privilege to which they thought was their due. Honor to honour, fear to fear, and dues to due.
Sorry I don’t know what your talking about

Do you have any scripture for what you say?
 
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