What commandments is Jesus talking about?

ace of hearts

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Okay. And King David said:


Psalm 1:2 ~ But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night.

Psalm 19:7 ~ The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is trustworthy, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:48 ~ I lift up my hands to Your commandments, which I love, and I meditate on Your statutes.

1 Chronicles 28:9 ~ “And Solomon, my son, learn to know the God of your ancestors intimately. Worship and serve him with your whole heart and a willing mind. For the Lord sees every heart and knows every plan and thought. If you seek him, you will find him."

From David's prayer recorded in 1 Chronicles 29:10~20:
“O Lord, the God of our ancestor Israel, may you be praised forever and ever! 11 Yours, O Lord, is the greatness, the power, the glory, the victory, and the majesty. Everything in the heavens and on earth is yours, O Lord, and this is your kingdom.
We adore you as the one who is over all things. 12 Wealth and honor come from you alone, for you rule over everything. Power and might are in your hand, and at your discretion people are made great and given strength.

13 “O our God, we thank you and praise your glorious name! 14 But who am I, and who are my people, that we could give anything to you? Everything we have has come from you, and we give you only what you first gave us! 15 We are here for only a moment, visitors and strangers in the land as our ancestors were before us. Our days on earth are like a passing shadow, gone so soon without a trace.

16 “O Lord our God, even this material we have gathered to build a Temple to honor your holy name comes from you! It all belongs to you! 17 I know, my God, that you examine our hearts and rejoice when you find integrity there. You know I have done all this with good motives, and I have watched your people offer their gifts willingly and joyously.

18 “O Lord, the God of our ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, make your people always want to obey you. See to it that their love for you never changes. 19 Give my son Solomon the wholehearted desire to obey all your commands, laws, and decrees, and to do everything necessary to build this Temple, for which I have made these preparations.”

20 Then David said to the whole assembly, “Give praise to the Lord your God!” And the entire assembly praised the Lord, the God of their ancestors, and they bowed low and knelt before the Lord and the king.


Quoting from Solomon's prayer at the Temple dedication:
1 Kings 8 ~ “Praise be to the Lord, who has given rest to his people Israel just as he promised. Not one word has failed of all the good promises he gave through his servant Moses. May the Lord our God be with us as he was with our ancestors; may he never leave us nor forsake us. May he turn our hearts to him, to walk in obedience to him and keep the commands, decrees and laws he gave our ancestors. And may these words of mine, which I have prayed before the Lord, be near to the Lord our God day and night, that he may uphold the cause of his servant and the cause of his people Israel according to each day’s need, so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. And may your hearts be fully committed to the Lord our God, to live by his decrees and obey his commands, as at this time.”

So what now?

Since David and Solomon only knew the Old Covenant - are we to trash their advice and wisdom? Does it not apply any longer? Why did Paul say the OC was "the ministry of death" and King David said the law of the LORD is perfect and brings joy and revives the soul? Why the contradiction? Are they talking about different laws? Was David a sadist? Do you have any other hypothesis? What specifically are you attributing to the Old Covenant? What goes - what remains? Jesus said He didn't come to abolish the Law of Moses or the writings of the prophets (in Matthew 5:17). So - what do we do with all of this?

If you want to live by the law, that's your choice. I ask why one would want to do this? Is it so you can be holy (righteous)? What does Isaiah say about our righteousness? Doesn't he call them "filthy rags?" Do you know what filthy rags are and what happens to them? Do you not understand your self obtained righteousness by the law isn't acceptable by God for salvation (redemption). Do you not read JN 10:9 and 14:6? And I'm not even started quoting Paul yet.
 
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ace of hearts

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So if you murder, does that mean you did not break the law?
No, it means I also broke the law. Your problem come in when you fail to understand the Christian isn't subject to the law. Gal 3:19, 1 Tim 1:9, etc.
 
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Dkh587

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Didn't it? So if it didn't exist (again you must think it magically appeared at Sinai), then Cain would not have been chastised...
Further witness that there was information of God’s instruction/law is Noah knowing the difference between clean and unclean animals. Also, Onan was killed for not continuing on his brother’s lineage, yet we have no clarification on that until the law was revealed to Israel. People knew things about God, but it was revealed on a national level to the Israelites.
 
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ace of hearts

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You have claimed previously that Christianity has nothing to do with Judaism or the OT. So tell me, what would you have if there was no Judaism or OT??? You would have no NT or NC...
I would still have a covenant of redemption. Doesn't matter much what name is has.
 
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ace of hearts

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the Holy Spirit will never lead anybody into disobedience, so I question whatever “spirit” anybody is listening to that tells them to disobey God.
The Holy Spirit doesn't lead one to the law as a rule of conduct. Jesus doesn't teach this either. JN 13:34, 15:10
 
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ace of hearts

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Further witness that there was information of God’s instruction/law is Noah knowing the difference between clean and unclean animals. Also, Onan was killed for not continuing on his brother’s lineage, yet we have no clarification on that until the law was revealed to Israel. People knew things about God, but it was revealed on a national level to the Israelites.
When it come to Noah and clean and unclean animals he is told he can eat either.
 
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mkgal1

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Do you ride a horse to church, or is that mode of transportation now "obsolete"?
If a horse was all you had, it would be the best thing available.
I don't see where you answered ANY of my questions.

I'd asked:

So what now?

Since David and Solomon only knew the Old Covenant - are we to trash their advice and wisdom? Does it not apply any longer? Why did Paul say the OC was "the ministry of death" and King David said the law of the LORD is perfect and brings joy and revives the soul? Why the contradiction? Are they talking about different laws? Was David a sadist? Do you have any other hypothesis? What specifically are you attributing to the Old Covenant? What goes - what remains? Jesus said He didn't come to abolish the Law of Moses or the writings of the prophets (in Matthew 5:17). So - what do we do with all of this?

I take that back. It does seem that you've partially answered one question. So far - you're seeming to state that the Sabbath is done away with (correct? Is that what you're implying?). If so, I agree. It's fulfilled. He is our rest. There's nothing wrong with celebrating feasts and holy days - but we're not under any obligation to do so (is what I believe). Feasts and holy days were shadows pointing to Jesus.

Obviously all the Temple rules and regulations have disappeared (as it states would happen in Hebrews)....what else has vanished? Anything?​
 
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mkgal1

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If you want to live by the law
I've stated by what law I wish to live by - and I believe it's what God truly wants from all of us (and what's necessary for unity). The law of love. Love God/Love others as I've loved you. Didn't Jesus state that, Himself?

"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." ~ Matthew 22:36-40


I certainly don't carry it out perfectly - but I do make my best attempts (and am thankful that God is gracious).


If you wish to ignore that instruction - you're going to leave a trail of destruction in your wake (which can be considered "death". Death of relationships - death of trust - death of honor....etc).
 
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mkgal1

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I ask why one would want to do this? Is it so you can be holy (righteous)?
It's the fruit of God's love revealed to us.

"We love because He first loved us" ~ 1 John 4:19
 
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BABerean2

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I don't see where you answered ANY of my questions.

I'd asked:

If Dr. Luke answered your questions in Acts of the Apostles 15:10-24, why would you ask me to rephrase it for you?

Do you know what a "yoke" is?


Can you read verse 24?

Or did you read what is recorded and you are attempting to ignore it because you cannot let go of the covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31?


How do we convince someone who refuses to accept what the Bible says?

.
 
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mkgal1

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How did the Old Covenant work for King David?
He committed adultery with another man's wife, and conspired to have that man killed.
David should have been stoned under the Sinai Covenant.
It would have been the ministry of death for him, if he had not been king.
David lost a child because of his sin.
I'm not sure what you mean by "work for King David"? He had a relationship with God. King David realized his sin and grieved. David was repeatedly grateful for God's graciousness (that's not changed. God has always been gracious and merciful).

Just because we have the New Covenant doesn't mean there is no more adultery and even murder. There are still consequences from our sin (and we ought to remain cognizant of that fact).

Please be careful about bringing up the loss of David's and Bathsheba's child. People still lose their children today - and it's not uncommon for the parents to blame themselves for that and agonize over it the rest of their lives.
How did the Sinai Covenant work for Solomon in his old age, when he allowed his many wives to influence him to help break the first commandment in his kingdom?

You are attempting to ignore what Paul said about the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant in Galatians 3:16-29.
Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed(Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

That same word "until" is found in Matthew 5:17-18.
I'm not attempting to ignore anything, BABerean. I'm attempting to have a discussion, though. You've posted alongside me enough (I thought) to know that I recognize the temporary nature of the Sinai covenant related to the process of the forgiveness of sins (and how Jesus is "the perfect way"). But what about God's instruction and precepts that are NOT relevant to the Temple? That's what I'm wishing to discuss. We can't say that the ten commandments are to be tossed away.

Why do you quote Matthew 5:17, but ignore Christ contrasting the Law of Moses to the New Covenant in Matthew 5:21-48, with the words "But I say..."?
Because that's the main issue in this thread - Jesus didn't abolish the Law....He fulfilled it. Verses 21-48 build on what He'd already instructed. You can't build on top of something that's not there.
 
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mkgal1

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Do you know what a "yoke" is?

Can you read verse 24?

Or did you read what is recorded and you are attempting to ignore it because you cannot let go of the covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31?
Can you let go of the condescension?

Yes, I know what a yoke is. Would you like to start another thread to talk about it, because I actually find it really interesting (but I'd be going off on a tangent)? Paul talks about how we choose our yoke (we will all be guided by something). Can't we call that a "law we live by"? Something that's guiding and influencing us? Didn't the author of Romans refer to either "being a slave to sin" or a "slave to God"?

Romans 6:20-23 ~ For when you were slaves to sin, you were free of obligation to righteousness. What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death. But now, having been set free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end is eternal life.

Of course I can read Galatians 4 v 24 - what are you really asking? That verse is addressing the division that was happening in the church of Galatia.

I've already posted the context of Galatians 4. Paul was addressing something specific (something that I'm not referring to, when I mention "the law" - which is why I've asked for YOU to offer your specific instructions you're referring to - because, otherwise, we are just talking past one another).

How do we convince someone who refuses to accept what the Bible says?
We don't. That's between them and God. I don't believe in "convincing someone". I just believe in sharing what I believe - and the rest is up to them and God to carry out.

I'm not sure why you're bringing that into the conversation - unless you're directing that towards me as the one "refusing to accept what the Bible says" ???
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Why are you asking?

Do you have a comprehension problem? You said: "I'm led by the Holy Spirit, Who doesn't lead me to sin or the law." So are you sinless then?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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In Jesus, absolutely!

Um no, you still sin...the difference is now you have a covering for your sin, a permanent one...do you understand that?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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No, it means I also broke the law. Your problem come in when you fail to understand the Christian isn't subject to the law. Gal 3:19, 1 Tim 1:9, etc.

So you admit you would break the law if you commit murder, yet as a Christian, you are not subject to the law....meaning what, that you did not break it or for you I is legal to murder?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The Holy Spirit doesn't lead one to the law as a rule of conduct. Jesus doesn't teach this either. JN 13:34, 15:10

The mind ruled by the power of sin is at war with God. It does not obey God’s law. It can’t. Those who are under the power of sin can’t please God.

Our duty is not to live under the power of sin. If you live under the power of sin, you will die. But by the Spirit’s power you can put to death the sins you commit. Then you will live.
 
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