Bible says science cannot possibly know how many years since creation

Subduction Zone · Apr 9, 2019

dad said:
You have no possibility of evidence for or against using science of man today.

You have it backwards. There is no need to use science against the Bible. You showed that by not being able to properly test it. You in effect refuted the Bible.

AV1611VET · Apr 9, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Why are you so quick to calling something a lie when the person is just wrong.

"Just wrong"???

That was a major pronouncement.

That would be like I saying the Pope, on Easter, killed [insert prominent evangelist here].

So James, went into hiding, did he?

I can see it now:

James (head of the church at Jerusalem): My message this Sunday will be ...
Joe: Um, pastor? Paul just announced that Herod Agrippa had you killed.
James: Oh, my! I had better go into hiding for the rest of my life! Someone might see me!

Subduction Zone · Apr 9, 2019

AV1611VET said:
"Just wrong"???

That was a major pronouncement.

That would be like I saying the Pope, on Easter, killed [insert prominent evangelist here].

So James, went into hiding, did he?

I can see it now:

James (head of the church at Jerusalem): My message this Sunday will be ...
Joe: Um, pastor? Paul just announced that Herod Agrippa had you killed.
James: Oh, my! I had better go into hiding for the rest of my life! Someone might see me!

if you studied Luke's nativity and the history of the area the error would be undeniable.

AV1611VET · Apr 9, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
If a person did more I God would that refute his existence?

Huh?

AV1611VET · Apr 9, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
if you studied Luke's nativity and the history of the area the error would be undeniable.

That's a whole different story in itself.

We're discussing the validity of Christian martyrs right now.

Subduction Zone · Apr 9, 2019

AV1611VET said:
Huh?

Fixed it. My tablet has an amazing feature. It is called autowrong.

Subduction Zone · Apr 9, 2019

AV1611VET said:
That's a whole different story in itself.

We're discussing the validity of Christian martyrs right now.

Your mistake is in assuming that because there may have been one valid martyr, that there were many. All religions have martyrs. It is not impressive nor is it evidence.

AV1611VET · Apr 9, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
Fixed it. My tablet has an amazing feature. It is called autowrong.

LOL -- been there / done that.

Kylie · Apr 10, 2019

AV1611VET said:
Would the sun go down if God stopped the earth's rotation?

Hey, welcome back!

Where ya been? Everything okay?

Kylie · Apr 10, 2019

dad said:
The issue is not how many believe the truth. The issue is that when billions tried Jesus they found Scripture was true. Billions of test tubes all confirm the result. That doesn't mean there are not other experiments and tests going on as well. Many may want to try evil spirits, for example.

So when people try it and they agree with you, it's valid evidence. When people try it and disagree with you, they're mistaken, it's evil demons or evil spirits or some other excuse.

It is my understanding that God does expect people to seek the truth, knock on the door...try to come to Him generally. He fills the hungry heart, and answers when we call unto Him.

And you think everyone who genuinely tries will find Jesus?

Would it surprise you to know that I once genuinely tried? My husband is religious and he asked me to open my heart to Jesus. And I genuinely tried. Now, of course, you are probably going to make excuses as to why but that's just more of what I said before. If a person tries and gets a different result to you, then you make excuses to justify why their experience is invalid.

In this example, Jesus was talking to some religious folks that He knew had not and would not come to Him.

John 5: 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Yeah, quoting the Bible at me isn't going to convince me that the Bible is true.

Except you call anything you can't prove or disprove or deal with at all a story.

Then why don't you provide some actual verifiable evidence to show that it's real and not just a story?

To the made up of mind I understand things may sound a certain way in their heads to them.

Except my mind is not made up. I'm perfectly willing to change my beliefs based on good evidence.

How about you? Is there anything that could possibly change your mind?

If you stick you fingers in live wires in a wall you get a shock. If you try God and His word, you get results. It is not rational to deny that someone got a shock for no reason, nor that they got results from testing Scripture.

And yet many people have tried God and his word and scripture and got nothing. How do you explain that?

People getting zapped when they stick their fingers in live wires is something that happens consistently. People getting results from the Bible is incredibly inconsistent, both in terms of whether they get results or not, and in terms of what those results are.

What are you talking about? I wasn't responding to a quote from the Bible. Are you incapable of keeping track of a discussion?

Looks like you forgot to reply to this part of my post.

AV1611VET · Apr 10, 2019

Kylie said:
Hey, welcome back!

Where ya been? Everything okay?

TYVM, Kylie!

Yes, mam! Everything is dandy as candy!

dad · Apr 10, 2019

Kylie said:
So when people try it and they agree with you, it's valid evidence. When people try it and disagree with you, they're mistaken, it's evil demons or evil spirits or some other excuse.

Not me...God. He is the One that promised confirmation.

And you think everyone who genuinely tries will find Jesus?

Yes

Would it surprise you to know that I once genuinely tried? My husband is religious and he asked me to open my heart to Jesus. And I genuinely tried. Now, of course, you are probably going to make excuses as to why but that's just more of what I said before. If a person tries and gets a different result to you, then you make excuses to justify why their experience is invalid.

Some are tougher nuts than others to crack for God I guess. Some are late bloomers. I have confidence He is working on it. After all, I notice you have been hanging around Christian forums for awhile, maybe there is some connection?

Yeah, quoting the Bible at me isn't going to convince me that the Bible is true.

Faith comes by hearing Scripture. I don't think it grows up through the pillow at night, generally. By the way, religious is a term I don't have much admiration or trust in. It can mean a lot of things.

Then why don't you provide some actual verifiable evidence to show that it's real and not just a story?

I don't think we are supposed to expect some wondrous sudden change when we get saved, although I think that is fairly common. For me it was more a matter of praying with some guy and it went something like this..with my thoughts in brackets, and the words spoken in red. It was early one morning, after spending the night arguing with a Jesus freak, when he showed me verses from the bible I couldn't deny about salvation, how that He would come in to us and our lives if we asked.

Dear God, (if there really is a God) please come into my heart now, (if I have a heart) and forgive me for my sins. I believe Jesus is your Son and came to save us. I now ask for the gift of eternal life, and that you take me to heaven when I die. Please send your holy spirit, and help me share your love with others. In Jesus' name, amen.

I would think the important thing is that we mean it. It was explained to me that only after doing this could I really start to understand the bible, and life. I found that to be true. The bible started coming alive. Now if someone didn't start to draw from Scripture, and suck like a baby sucks milk, well, I suppose one might not be able to have the bible start to open to their understanding.

Of course there are several variations of the salvation prayer so I can't quite remember the exact words.

Except my mind is not made up. I'm perfectly willing to change my beliefs based on good evidence.

How about you? Is there anything that could possibly change your mind?

That is a bit like asking someone run over by a car and recovering in hospital if they believed in cars, or if their mind could be changed that there are cars.

And yet many people have tried God and his word and scripture and got nothing. How do you explain that?

I would think that the results may depend on the desperation and sincerity somewhat. (or maybe it depends more on what God knows we need...or both) In any case, our lives last quite a while usually, so we are works in progress. There is also the other side where we continue to learn stuff

People getting zapped when they stick their fingers in live wires is something that happens consistently. People getting results from the Bible is incredibly inconsistent, both in terms of whether they get results or not, and in terms of what those results are.

I daresay that for every case you could present of someone getting shocked, there may be a case of someone feeling their lives impacted by God.

Kylie · Apr 10, 2019

dad said:
Not me...God. He is the One that promised confirmation.

No, he is the one who allegedly promised it.

Yes

The No True Scotsman fallacy.

Good to see you trying something different. I wish it weren't another logical fallacy though...

Some are tougher nuts than others to crack for God I guess. Some are late bloomers. I have confidence He is working on it. After all, I notice you have been hanging around Christian forums for awhile, maybe there is some connection?

I notice you have been posting in the sciences section, maybe that means you're about to start using it?

Faith comes by hearing Scripture. I don't think it grows up through the pillow at night, generally. By the way, religious is a term I don't have much admiration or trust in. It can mean a lot of things.

So you can't provide any evidence. The best you can do is repeat the same old stories and tell me that you really REALLY think they are true.

I don't think we are supposed to expect some wondrous sudden change when we get saved, although I think that is fairly common. For me it was more a matter of praying with some guy and it went something like this..with my thoughts in brackets, and the words spoken in red. It was early one morning, after spending the night arguing with a Jesus freak, when he showed me verses from the bible I couldn't deny about salvation, how that He would come in to us and our lives if we asked.

Dear God, (if there really is a God) please come into my heart now, (if I have a heart) and forgive me for my sins. I believe Jesus is your Son and came to save us. I now ask for the gift of eternal life, and that you take me to heaven when I die. Please send your holy spirit, and help me share your love with others. In Jesus' name, amen.

I would think the important thing is that we mean it. It was explained to me that only after doing this could I really start to understand the bible, and life. I found that to be true. The bible started coming alive. Now if someone didn't start to draw from Scripture, and suck like a baby sucks milk, well, I suppose one might not be able to have the bible start to open to their understanding.

Of course there are several variations of the salvation prayer so I can't quite remember the exact words.

Of course, you can't actually MEAN it until you believe. So it comes down to you deciding you will believe, then deciding that whatever supports your beliefs is evidence for those beliefs, thus justifying those beliefs.

That is a bit like asking someone run over by a car and recovering in hospital if they believed in cars, or if their mind could be changed that there are cars.

Do you actually think that's a realistic analogy?

I would think that the results may depend on the desperation and sincerity somewhat. (or maybe it depends more on what God knows we need...or both) In any case, our lives last quite a while usually, so we are works in progress. There is also the other side where we continue to learn stuff

Such a lovely non-answer.

I daresay that for every case you could present of someone getting shocked, there may be a case of someone feeling their lives impacted by God.

Again, you miss the point.

The experiences of people who get shocked are very consistent. Those who find God lack that consistency.

dad · Apr 10, 2019

Kylie said:
No, he is the one who allegedly promised it.

The No True Scotsman fallacy.

Good to see you trying something different. I wish it weren't another logical fallacy though...

I notice you have been posting in the sciences section, maybe that means you're about to start using it?

It means I beat the tar out of the opposition so there is less interest now that their religion can't fight back anymore.

So you can't provide any evidence. The best you can do is repeat the same old stories and tell me that you really REALLY think they are true.

Of course, you can't actually MEAN it until you believe. So it comes down to you deciding you will believe, then deciding that whatever supports your beliefs is evidence for those beliefs, thus justifying those beliefs.

Maybe God is not as mean as we think, and He accepts a good honest try at believing at first.

Do you actually think that's a realistic analogy?

Such a lovely non-answer.

Again, you miss the point.

The experiences of people who get shocked are very consistent. Those who find God lack that consistency.

His hand in the lives of men is not a fist usually, it helps in ways different folks with different strokes need.

dad · Apr 10, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
You have it backwards. There is no need to use science against the Bible.

Since there is no possibility, invoking some possible need is irrelevant.

You showed that by not being able to properly test it. You in effect refuted the Bible.

God set up tests that are proper. Your testing ability is non existent when it comes to things of God and the spiritual. The best doubting science could offer is comments from the peanut gallery.

Subduction Zone · Apr 10, 2019

dad said:
Since there is no possibility, invoking some possible need is irrelevant.

The sciences show the Bible to be wrong quite often if one makes the error of interpreting it literally.

God set up tests that are proper. Your testing ability is non existent when it comes to things of God and the spiritual. The best doubting science could offer is comments from the peanut gallery.

Where? There are none that I know of in the Bible. And please, you probably have a far worse understanding of the spiritual than I do. I do not make the same errors that you do.

dad · Apr 11, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
The sciences show the Bible to be wrong quite often if one makes the error of interpreting it literally.

No. Quite the opposite. Only the religious dream factory fringes of science are so foolish as to mouth off against the Almighty. They do so with no evidence, no authority and no avail.

Where? There are none that I know of in the Bible.

Earlier in the thread a few bible tests were given.

And please, you probably have a far worse understanding of the spiritual than I do.

Easy to say.

I do not make the same errors that you do.

Got that right.

Subduction Zone · Apr 11, 2019

dad said:
No. Quite the opposite. Only the religious dream factory fringes of science are so foolish as to mouth off against the Almighty. They do so with no evidence, no authority and no avail.

Earlier in the thread a few bible tests were given.

Easy to say.
Got that right.

No valid tests were given. They only relied upon confirmation bias. In other words people fooling themselves. A proper test was explained to you.

And watch the false claims about others.

dad · Apr 11, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
No valid tests were given. They only relied upon confirmation bias. In other words people fooling themselves. A proper test was explained to you.

And watch the false claims about others.

God's tests are valid, despite your opinion.

Kylie · Apr 11, 2019

dad said:
It means I beat the tar out of the opposition so there is less interest now that their religion can't fight back anymore.

Look, you can declare that you've one all you want, doesn't change the fact that all you've ever been able to do is make claims and insist they're true. You've never been able to present any actual evidence for anything you've said. Until you present evidence, you'll find that most people here don't find your claims convincing unless they already believe them.

Maybe God is not as mean as we think, and He accepts a good honest try at believing at first.

And yet I gave it a good honest try and got zip.

Funny how your claims always have excuses built in to explain it when they just don't work.

His hand in the lives of men is not a fist usually, it helps in ways different folks with different strokes need.

Ah yes, here we go, one of those built in excuses to justify things when it doesn't work.

Bible says science cannot possibly know how many years since creation

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