Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Okay. Wow. I just read that part in Revelation 12 again. I am starting to see it now. Michael is the angel of the Jews. It is talking about their keeping the commandments of God, etc. Cool.
Exactly!
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If you were to do a BlueLetterBible search on the keyword "thief" (See this link here), you will notice that this in reference to the time known as the "Day of the Lord." The "Day of the Lord" is a period of time that starts at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet Judgment (Although it is heralded as having arrived by the wicked at the 6th seal). The time period known as the "Day of the Lord" includes the 2nd Coming of Christ, and it officially ends with the purification of this world by fire (as mentioned by Peter).
The age or time period known "Day of the Lord" is contained within the 7 year Tribulation period.
So in order to truly "not know the day or the hour" is not to know when the 7 year Tribulation will begin that contains the "Day of the Lord" time frame or period. This is why we are to watch for Christ's appearing at any moment. For Scripture says he will come in a time we think not.

I created a table in my recent commentary post here (if you are interested).

Blessings to you in the Lord.
If you don't mind, let me approach it from another angle. The Day of the Lord is not a period of time but instead a short period of time which I don't believe stretches out for the space of time that you propose. For example, Martha proclaimed that her brother Lazarus would "rise again in the resurrection at the last day. That would lend me to believe that Martha was referring to the 2nd Coming itself and not a period of time starting at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet. Scripture itself does not state that we don't know the time period of his coming. Instead Scripture states that we don't know the specific "day" or the "hour" thus we can guess/ascertain the general time frame.

With this day/hour in mind, let's turn our attention to the Church of Philadelphia. If any Church is to be "raptured," it is the Philadelphian Church as Jesus promised that He would save them from the HOUR of trial which is to come upon the whole earth. Logic dictates that if we can determine when that hour occurs, then we can determine when the saints will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air. A survey of Revelation reveals how/what this hour refers to:
Revelation 17:12
“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
Revelation 18:10
Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’
Revelation 18:17
In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’ “Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off.
Revelation 18:19
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

Based on the above, it appears that the hour Jesus promised the Philadelphian Church that He would save them from is the hour that the kings of the earth receive their power and at that time Babylon is judged unto doom and destruction. I think this time frame fits perfectly with Rev 16:15-16. Thus the church is raptured at the 2nd Coming which takes place right before the hour of mystery Babylon's destruction.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If you don't mind, let me approach it from another angle. The Day of the Lord is not a period of time but instead a short period of time which I don't believe stretches out for the space of time that you propose. For example, Martha proclaimed that her brother Lazarus would "rise again in the resurrection at the last day. That would lend me to believe that Martha was referring to the 2nd Coming itself and not a period of time starting at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet. Scripture itself does not state that we don't know the time period of his coming. Instead Scripture states that we don't know the specific "day" or the "hour" thus we can guess/ascertain the general time frame.

With this day/hour in mind, let's turn our attention to the Church of Philadelphia. If any Church is to be "raptured," it is the Philadelphian Church as Jesus promised that He would save them from the HOUR of trial which is to come upon the whole earth. Logic dictates that if we can determine when that hour occurs, then we can determine when the saints will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air. A survey of Revelation reveals how/what this hour refers to:
Revelation 17:12
“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
Revelation 18:10
Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’
Revelation 18:17
In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’ “Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off.
Revelation 18:19
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

Based on the above, it appears that the hour Jesus promised the Philadelphian Church that He would save them from is the hour that the kings of the earth receive their power and at that time Babylon is judged unto doom and destruction. I think this time frame fits perfectly with Rev 16:15-16. Thus the church is raptured at the 2nd Coming which takes place right before the hour of mystery Babylon's destruction.

I don't agree, my friend;
I think it is best we respectfully agree to disagree.
Besides, this is a Pre-Trib Only and or Mid Trib Only thread.
So I think it is best to let it go.

Anyways, peace, and blessings be unto you in the Lord (even if we disagree).
 
Upvote 0

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
59
Clanton Alabama
✟108,106.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Okay. Wow. I just read that part in Revelation 12 again. I am starting to see it now. Michael is the angel of the Jews. It is talking about their keeping the commandments of God, etc. Cool.
No, it is speaking of the REMNANT Church as keeping the Commandments of God. Satan CAN GET AT THEM, he can't get at the Woman !! Thus the REMNANT can't be the Jews, it doesn't fit. He CAN'T get at the Woman {1/3 who repent} and the 2/3 who don't REPENT Perish, so they DO NOT keep the Commandments of God. So the Remnant can't be the Jews.

It is the Gentiles who Repented after the Rapture, thus they are the REMNANT of the SEED {Jesus is the seed, see Gal. 3} who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
59
Clanton Alabama
✟108,106.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Explain to me how the Remnant can be Jews Douggg, it's just the opposite, they can't be Jews.

The 1/3 God protects, the 2/3 who PERISH do not keep the Commandments of God !!

They are the REMNANT CHURCH, those that Repent after the Rapture, they are of Jesus who is the SEED of Israel. They can and will be Martyred and they keep the commandments of God. NO Jews can fit that bill, it is not possible, the 1/3 God protects, the 2/3 REFUSE to repent !!

Jump on my logic tain brother.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Well said. I just need more info. that the "man of sin" is a Jew.
I do want to thank you, though. I see now that the "beast" (the 8th king) more than likely cannot exist until after the abomination of desolation. For Paul says that the man of sin will say that he is god in the temple. However, the economic collapse of the nation of Babylon seems to fit the famine with the third seal.
So this is why I thought the beast (the 8th king) could exist at this point.
Do you have anything else in the Bible that lines up with the third seal?
In general, the seals

First half of the 7 years
first seal - the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist, given a crown, anointed the king of Israel by the false prophet. The Antichrist as the king of Israel, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, of all future leaders of Israel, for the 7 year cycle - to begin the 7 years. It will basically be a big speech from the temple mount.

Second half of the 7 years

second seal - war breaks out. Because the Antichrist has gone into the temple, sat, and claims to have achieved God-hood. God in reaction brings outsiders to Israel, to kill him. This is in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

In those verses is how the person gets mortally wounded killed. So war breaks out when he claims to he God (the first time around. Later when he becomes the beast, his coming back to life will seem to the world to verify his first claim).


third seal - starvation on planet earth because of the judgments from God. The poisoning of the waters. The burning up of the green grass, and a third of the trees.

fourth seal
- death and hell. Large portions of earth's populations are dying off because of the plagues and judgments.

fifth seal
- the souls of them martyred during the great tribulation have built up to being the great multitude in Revelation 7.

sixth seal - the second heaven rolls back like a scroll (one reason Satan and his angels have to be cast down to earth, because their home is going to be removed) near the very end of the 7 years.

The day of the Lord's wrath has come, on behalf of them who have been martyred. The beast, the false prophet, Satan - and the kings of the earth take drastic action and prepare to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgment on them.

___________________________________________________________________________

Jason, if you look at my chart, the "prince who shall come" and the "revealed man of sin" are on sloped arrows. I call those roles as "transitional roles". They are not long in duration.

They serve to transition to first become the Antichrist. Then to transition to becoming the beast.

The revelaed man of sin - takes place when the person first goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. It triggers the Day of the Lord. And it gets him killed, in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

2thessalonians2:4 is an act - the transgression of desolation (from Daniel 8:12-13). Differently, the abomination of desolation is an object, the image made of him after he comes back to life as the beast.

The abomination of desolation is what triggers the great tribulation. My chart is not a complete chronology, but it can help you to get to the point where the great tribulation begins.
298721_40604e5919684ba882068bfa7e72f4ee.png
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
@Revealing Times:

I see the woman as giving birth to Jesus. This woman is Israel. The woman is also described as having been clothed with the sun, moon, and stars (Note: Joseph had a dream of a sun, moon, and eleven stars).

The rest of the offspring that the devil went to war with at the end of Revelation 12 are general believers (Gentile believers).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In general, the seals

First half of the 7 years
first seal - the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist, given a crown, anointed the king of Israel by the false prophet. The Antichrist as the king of Israel, confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, of all future leaders of Israel, for the 7 year cycle - to begin the 7 years.

Second half of the 7 years

second seal - war breaks out. Because the Antichrist has gone into the temple, sat, and claims to halve achieve God-hood. God in reaction brings outsiders to Israel, to kill him. This is in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

In those verses is how the person gets mortally wounded killed. So war breaks out when he claims to he God (the first time around. Later when he becomes the beast, his coming back to life will seem to the world to verify his first claim).


third seal - starvation on planet earth because of the judgments from God. The poisoning of the waters. The burning up of the green grass, and a third of the trees.

fourth seal
- death and hell. Large portions of earth's populations are dying off because of the plagues and judgments.

fifth seal
- the souls of them martyred during the great tribulation have built up to being the great multitude in Revelation 7.

sixth seal - the second heaven rolls back like a scroll (one reason Satan and his angels have to be cast down to earth, because their home is going to be removed) near the very end of the 7 years.

The day of the Lord's wrath has come, on behalf of them who have been martyred. The beast, the false prophet, Satan - and the kings of the earth take drastic action and prepare to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgment on them.

___________________________________________________________________________

Jason, if you look at my chart, the "prince who shall come" and the "revealed man of sin" are on sloped arrows. I call those roles as "transitional roles". They are not long in duration.

They serve to transition to first become the Antichrist. Then to transition to becoming the beast.

The revelaed man of sin - takes place when the person first goes into the temple, claims to be God. It triggers the Day of the Lord. And it gets him killed, in Ezekiel 28:1-10.

2thessalonians2:4 is an act - the transition of desolation (from Daniel 8:12-13). Differently, the abomination of desolation is an object, the image made of him after he comes back to life as the beast.

The abomination of desolation is what triggers the great tribulation. My chart is not a complete chronology, but it can help you to get to the point where the great tribulation begins.
298721_40604e5919684ba882068bfa7e72f4ee.png

Interesting take on things.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Interesting take on things.
Jason, while my first chart is not a complete chronology, and stops at where the great tribulation begins -

my second chart picks up with the great tribulation beginning - on day 1185 of the 2520 day 7 years. It ends with Jesus's return.
299378_434ba8950b3a4f9b6b12cf3c5c6c6cf8.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Interesting take on things.
Jason, a quick review...

1. Ezekiel 38-39 sets the overall outline of the end times, the chronology. The link I gave you to my other thread on Optional and fixed of the end times chronology. Post 81

2. The parameters of the crowns/no crowns. Explanation of, Post 60.

3. The six seals, first half, second half. Post 91

4. My first chart, the path of the arch villain of the end times, the different roles he progresses through. In multiple posts.

5. My second chart beginning the great tribulation period, all of the time frames in Revelation and Daniel laid out, the 1335 days, the 1290 days, the 1260 days, the 3 1/2 days, the 42 months, the time, times, half time. Post 94
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
If you don't mind, let me approach it from another angle. The Day of the Lord is not a period of time but instead a short period of time which I don't believe stretches out for the space of time that you propose. For example, Martha proclaimed that her brother Lazarus would "rise again in the resurrection at the last day. That would lend me to believe that Martha was referring to the 2nd Coming itself and not a period of time starting at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet. Scripture itself does not state that we don't know the time period of his coming. Instead Scripture states that we don't know the specific "day" or the "hour" thus we can guess/ascertain the general time frame.

With this day/hour in mind, let's turn our attention to the Church of Philadelphia. If any Church is to be "raptured," it is the Philadelphian Church as Jesus promised that He would save them from the HOUR of trial which is to come upon the whole earth. Logic dictates that if we can determine when that hour occurs, then we can determine when the saints will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air. A survey of Revelation reveals how/what this hour refers to:
Revelation 17:12
“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
Revelation 18:10
Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’
Revelation 18:17
In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’ “Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off.
Revelation 18:19
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

Based on the above, it appears that the hour Jesus promised the Philadelphian Church that He would save them from is the hour that the kings of the earth receive their power and at that time Babylon is judged unto doom and destruction. I think this time frame fits perfectly with Rev 16:15-16. Thus the church is raptured at the 2nd Coming which takes place right before the hour of mystery Babylon's destruction.
Basically I agree with the overall concept you have of the Day of the Lord (hopefully, I did not misunderstand you).

The starting point would be when the man of sin goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

The Day of the Lord continues to the end of the 7 years. Then the Day of the Lord continues into the millennium rule. Then the Day of the Lord continues, to the Grea White Throne judgment. Then the Day of the Lord continues into eternity. And has no end.

It is at the beginning of the Day of the Lord, that short stretch is a time of upheaval, darkness, and testing.


Speaking to Israel, in Amos 5 ...

18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, the Scripture in my Chronology confirms this.
The Bible says the wicked will be destroyed.



In my End Times Chronology, I list the verses that talk about the destruction of the devil.

You can check out my part of the chronology that talks about the destruction of the wicked and the destruction of the devil here.

I hope this helps;
May God richly bless you in His good ways today.

For the most part we agree, at least, regarding the human wicked. Yay!
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
@Revealing Times:

I want to thank you for challenging me (i.e. for your help), too.

I was looking at my Chronology again and the "Beginning of Sorrows" and then re-reading the words of Jesus and the words of his disciples. The disciples specifically were asking,

"...what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
(Matthew 24:3).​

The last two questions by the disciples I find very interesting.

Jesus answers these last two questions.

Question #1. What shall be the sign of your coming?

Jesus answers with the Abomination of Desolation (that leads into the 4th seal - death) that then leads into the Sign of the Son of Man (Christ appears sitting on the throne) at the sixth seal, and then eventually leads to His 2nd Coming (return to the Earth) and the gathering of His elect with the angels at the 6th bowl judgment.​

Question #2. What shall be the sign of the end of the world?

Jesus answers by telling us about the Beginning of Sorrow and yet saying, the End is not yet. The "end of the world" would make the most sense as the last week in Daniel's 70 week prophecy (Which would line up with the judgments in the last book of the Bible, i.e. Revelation). For as you know, Revelation is all about the End.​

The only problem I run into is Jeremiah 30.

"And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." (Jeremiah 30:4-7).​

For this "birth pain" is tied to Jacob's trouble (i.e. the time of Tribulation).

So I am not sure where to put the Beginning of Sorrows. On the one hand, it sounds like those events have happened in the past, and happen today and Jesus says the End is not yet (implying the 70th week), but I am not so sure based on Jeremiah 30:4-7. Jesus says that the Beginning of Sorrows is like a woman giving birth in Matthew 24, and yet Jeremiah 30:4-7 places the birth pains as a part of Jacob's Trouble. Jacob's Trouble is clearly in the Tribulation.

But I wanted to say thank you.
Thank you for your contribution to the thread in helping me.

This is all about iron sharpening iron here (even if we may not 100% agree with one another on everything).

May God bless you this fine day.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jason, a quick review...

1. Ezekiel 38-39 sets the overall outline of the end times, the chronology. The link I gave you to my other thread on Optional and fixed of the end times chronology. Post 81

2. The parameters of the crowns/no crowns. Explanation of, Post 60.

3. The six seals, first half, second half. Post 91

4. My first chart, the path of the arch villain of the end times, the different roles he progresses through. In multiple posts.

5. My second chart beginning the great tribulation period, all of the time frames in Revelation and Daniel laid out, the 1335 days, the 1290 days, the 1260 days, the 3 1/2 days, the 42 months, the time, times, half time. Post 94

Thank you Doug. I will have to prayerfully look over everything and compare Scripture with Scripture with what I got. I may insert cool graphics for illustrative purposes to help the reader see the clarity in my chronology. Yes, it needs work. I am always looking to improve.

Thank you for your help, Doug. I appreciate it. We may not agree on every little thing, but I do want to thank you for helping me with certain things that I could not see before.

*Gives you a hug in the Lord*

Blessings to you and your family in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't agree, my friend;
I think it is best we respectfully agree to disagree.
Besides, this is a Pre-Trib Only and or Mid Trib Only thread.
So I think it is best to let it go.

Anyways, peace, and blessings be unto you in the Lord (even if we disagree).
Agreed, though we disagree I respect your opinion. Thanks for engaging.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
59
Clanton Alabama
✟108,106.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I see the woman as giving birth to Jesus. This woman is Israel. The woman is also described as having been clothed with the sun, moon, and stars (Note: Joseph had a dream of a sun, moon, and eleven stars).

The rest of the offspring that the devil went to war with at the end of Revelation 12 are general believers (Gentile believers).
Right, the Gentile Remnant Church ON EARTH, vs the larger portion that is in Heaven.
 
Upvote 0

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
59
Clanton Alabama
✟108,106.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
@Revealing Times:

I want to thank you for challenging me (i.e. for your help), too.

I was looking at my Chronology again and the "Beginning of Sorrows" and then re-reading the words of Jesus and the words of his disciples. The disciples specifically were asking,

"...what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
(Matthew 24:3).​

The last two questions by the disciples I find very interesting.

May God bless you this fine day.
YW, it's all good, I just so happened to have done research on Matt. 24 and a Exegesis on Matt. 24 ad the THREE QUESTIONS that the Disciples asked.

Matthew 24 Revealed: Understanding The Three Timelines

Matthew 24 Revealed: Understanding The Three Timelines: Matthew 24:1-6 is about the Destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first question was about what Jesus had just said, the Temple being DESTROYED (When shall these things be?) The second question was what will be the Sign of your Coming. These are dealt with in order. Also Remember that false prophets and/or false chirsts are mentioned three times, in verse 5, 11 and 24 and they are THREE SEPARATE EVENTS.

If Jesus is going to give them a sign/understanding of these events, wouldn't he walk them through the whole 2000 year period? I think he would, and clearly does. Lets go through a few of the verses to see why I believe as I do. And we know its a 2000 year period, its 2017 SMILE. Well Almost 2000 years.

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am christ; and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Jesus here is warning the Disciples not to be deceived, it is well known that the Rabbis/Pharisees in order to put down the "Jesus movement" and because they thought the Roman occupation was the END TIMES or the Fourth Beast and thus they were expecting the "Little Horn" at any moment to come forth. Thus they were "Looking" for the Messiah to come forth and save them, so they put forth various Messiahs just before the Temple and Jerusalem's destruction, which was caused by their rebellion against Rome. Jesus is telling his Disciples not to fall for the lies, many will come in my name, saying I am the Messiah, but they will not be me Returning !! It is not that time he tells them, do not fall for the lies for the End is not yet. The end will be by and by.

He was basically warning his Disciples not to come back to Jerusalem when they heard of these things, thinking that it was Jesus come again, like in Zechariah 14, because if they heard the rumors and came back to Jerusalem, no doubt they would be in the line of fire and probably killed, so his warning was to STAY AWAY. Don't buy the false stories of Christ is in Jerusalem is what Jesus here is informing his Disciples. He is informing them that they will hear of Wars and Rumors of wars, no doubt Jesus knew many of the Disciples would venture afar taking the Gospel unto all the world, thus they would not see this destruction of the Temple, some would, but many would just hear of the destruction to come. Jesus tells them, THIS IS NOT THE END !! Meaning that even though the Pharisees and Rabbis were looking for the Messiah to Save them, (from Rome) this was not the time of Jesus' Second Coming, thus he says, the END IS NOT YET !!

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then Jesus seems to shift into a futuristic 2000 year period of time from 70 AD to the coming Rapture. He speaks about Nations against Nations, Kingdoms against Kingdoms, famines, pestilences and earthquakes, and he says these are the Beginnings of Sorrows !! The Greek word used for sorrows implies BIRTH PANGS, this is Jesus telling the Disciples that all of these things Must happen first, and that will be the Sign (BIRTH PANG) that the end is near. The next few verses are also covering the full 2000 year period, speaking at times about the Disciples, and at other times about the whole 2000 year period, until the Rapture.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

I think this is mainly Jesus telling his Disciples about their coming fate. Many people would betray them, and most all of the Disciples would become Martyrs, save John and a couple of others. They don't kill you if they don't hate you right? And no doubt, many betrayed them, like Judas betrayed Jesus.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I think this is speaking of the overall period from 70 AD, until the Rapture. Jesus throws this in to let everyone know, there will be many false prophets (Jonestown, and cults like it have risen over the 2000 year period since Jesus' death) and because of sin or the acceptance thereof, (at the end times or Birth Pangs) the love of Many shall wax Cold.....Abortion, Murder, Homosexuality being pushed as normal etc. etc. Then Jesus says, BUT..... out of all of these things I have described unto you all, (Matthew 24:7-13) he that endures all things that might come upon him, he that KEEPS THE FAITH until the End (of his life) the same shall be SAVED. In other words if we turn from God/Jesus and return unto the world, we will be cast out of Jesus' mouth as Lukewarm. We must overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb, we can not turn back to living a sinful life, we must endure all of our temptations. It doesn't mean we will not Sin..........It just means we can not turn back unto a sinful lifestyle. WE MUST ENDURE IN CHRIST until the end. We are to run the Marathon. Amen

This above is Jesus answering their questions, "When shall these things be"? He walks them through the full 2000 year period between when he was alive, until he calls the Church home at the Rapture. The destruction of the Temple is spoken of but Jesus says, the end is not yet !! Then Jesus finishes the 2000 panoramic view. The Rapture scriptures of Matthew 24:36-51 should actually be next, verses 36-51 should come after verse 13 or 14. But Mathew did not have a clue about the Rapture, so he (correctly) placed it with the Second Coming verses 29-31, at least in his thinking it was correct.

On to the 70th Week of Daniel now. The 3 1/2 years of Peace/Security followed by the 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath. The Rapture happens after verse 13 or 14. In my honest opinion Matthew 24:36-51, belongs right here.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand} 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Verse 14 kind of belongs with verses 7-13, but it can also go on this side of the 2000 year divide. It straddles the gap so to speak. The Gospel must be preached unto all the World, then the END WILL COME !! This is very clear, once the Church has preached the Gospel unto all the world for a witness to Jesus' saving Grace, then and only then can the End Times come upon us. Jesus then goes on to tell us/disciples about this End Time Period. He warns the Jewish peoples that when they see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, they should Flee Jerusalem. THIS IS AN END TIME EVENT.........There is no doubt about that at all. Now Jesus must answer the next question(s), what will be the Sign of thy coming, and what will be the end (of the age) of time.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, (THE Anti-Christ and False Prophet here) and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus is telling his Disciples, and thus warning the Jewish peoples of the coming Tribulation Period what to look for. He is warning them not to fall for the Anti-Christ and False Prophets tricks when they try to entice Israel to come out of their safe space, where God says in Revelation 12 that he will protect them for 1260 days, from the Anti-Christ/Dragon (Satan). Israel have accepted Jesus as their Messiah by this time. (Malachi 4:5-6) So of course the Anti-Christ and False Prophet wants to deceive them into thinking Jesus has RETURNED (because they want to kill them, of course) and is in the Desert or Secret Chambers !! But Jesus says do not fall for their lies, for I will not be in the Desert or in a Secret Chambers.... for I will be coming from the Eastern Skies for all to see. Amen.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (Vials 6 & 7), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So, Jesus tells the Jewish peoples the Signs of his Coming and when the end shall be. This is the End of the Age, no doubt. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days (Troubles/Jacobs Trouble), these signs will be in the sky and then you will see me coming in the clouds from the East, and all the tribes and nations will see the Glory of my Coming. And the Angels will gather THE ELECT from the Four Corners of Heaven, [where the Church has been for SEVEN YEARS, Marrying the Lamb] and we will Return on White Horses with Jesus Christ just as Rev. 19 says. Amen.

Now Jesus has covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because 85-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians 15. So now Jesus must cover the few Messianic Jews plight. What will happen to them at the End Times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

So Matthew 36-51 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, for it emphasizes everything that needs to be said, Jesus tells the Messianic Jews about their destiny : (This should come just after Matthew 24:13-14)

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

This of course happens right before the Tribulation, or Jacobs Troubles. If this actually happened during the Tribulation period would they be Drinking/Marrying and having a grand ole time? No, of course not, that makes no sense, the Jewish nation will be in hiding in the Wilderness, (Rev. 12) and the wicked men of earth will be dodging the plagues of Gods Wrath, there will be no one who will be having fun just before Jesus' SECOND COMING, that I can assure you !! So this is the Rapture here, we are expectant, but Surprised when Jesus Returns. The World during Gods Wrath will not be surprised, the 6th Seal is the Gathering of nations unto Meggido for Armageddon, so does anyone really think that Jesus showing up on The Mt. of Olives at Vial number 7 is going to be a surprise? NO.....The Anti-Christ has exactly 42 Months to rule.

Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.

Then Jesus says WATCH, for you know not what hour when your Lord comes. Just like the Bride knew not what hour the Bridegroom was to come !! We know when Jesus' Second Coming will be. Exactly 42 Months after the Anti-Christ commits the Abomination of Desolation, AND.......everyone on earth will all see Jesus (with us at his side) splitting the Eastern skies, no one will be left behind, believe me, the Wicked will be DESTROYED, not left behind. Amen.

Matthew 24:1-6 is the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Matthew 24:7-13 is the 2000 year period from 70 AD to the Rapture.

Matthew 24:36-51 is the Rapture/Matthew thought it should be with the Second Coming.

Matthew 24:15-28 is the Abomination/Time of Troubles/False Prophet and Anti-Christ time.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Church will come back from Heaven with Jesus Christ on White Horses (Rev. 19) Amen, Glory to God.

Matthew 24:32-35 is the Parable of the "FIG TREE". It basically is saying when the Fig Tree is ripe you know that Summer is NEAR and Likewise, when you SEE ALL OF THESE SIGNS, My Coming will be Near.

The Sign of Jesus Second Coming will.......NOT be when you see the Temples/Jerusalem's Destruction, NOT when you see the Kingdoms vs. Kingdoms or pestilences, NOT be when the Gospel is Preached unto all the World, NOT be when the Abomination of Desolation happens, NOT be when you see the TROUBLES OF JACOB, it will NOT be when you see the false christ and false prophet, it will NOT be when you see the Sun turn dark, the moon turn red or the stars falling from the skies.

But the Second Coming will only happen when you see ALL OF THESE SIGNS COME TO PASS !!

Basically this is a multi faceted prophecy, that takes deep thinking and revelation from God to understand via much prayer.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Study this at your leisure. It's a much more complicated passage than it seems at first.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Thank you Doug. I will have to prayerfully look over everything and compare Scripture with Scripture with what I got. I may insert cool graphics for illustrative purposes to help the reader see the clarity in my chronology. Yes, it needs work. I am always looking to improve.

Thank you for your help, Doug. I appreciate it. We may not agree on every little thing, but I do want to thank you for helping me with certain things that I could not see before.

*Gives you a hug in the Lord*

Blessings to you and your family in Christ.
Jason, on my chart, I show the little horn as the 7th Julio-Claudian king of the Julio-Claudian bloodline. The person will also be a Jew.

When he comes to power, being a Jew will be one way to confirm that it is him.
And he will have a determined facial appearance about him (from Daniel 7:20 and 8:23)
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jason, on my chart, I show the little horn as the 7th Julio-Claudian king of the Julio-Claudian bloodline. The person will also be a Jew.

When he comes to power, being a Jew will be one way to confirm that it is him.
And he will have a determined facial appearance about him (from Daniel 7:20 and 8:23)

What is a mystery is that Scripture says that the "little horn" shall make war against the saints and that he prevailed against them. This would be the man of sin or the 7th king.

Daniel 7:21

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"​
Daniel 8:9-10

"And...a little horn...waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."​

Yet, we know in Revelation 13 it says that the beast is given to make war with the saints.

Revelation 13:7a

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them"​
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
What is a mystery is that Scripture says that the "little horn" shall make war against the saints and that he prevailed against them. This would be the man of sin or the 7th king.

Daniel 7:21

"I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"​
Daniel 8:9-10

"And...a little horn...waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them."​

Yet, we know in Revelation 13 it says that the beast is given to make war with the saints.

Revelation 13:7a

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them"​
Hi Jason,

There are two Kingships that the person is associated with. (1) the Kingship of the Roman Empire (2) the Kingship of Israel for a while.

Yes, in the line of the Kingship of the Roman Empire, king 7 becomes king 8. Right before becoming king 8, the person reveals himself as the man of sin.

Once the little horn person has reached the revealed man of sin stage, he starts persecuting his own people, the Jews for rejecting his claim of having achieved God-hood. Once he is killed and finds himself in hell in Isaiah 14, God calls him out on this...

Isaiah 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

________________________________________________________________________________

Since his body is not buried, it appears as though to the world following his death, it will be during the viewing time of his body in the open casket, on worldwide TV, that he will sit up in the casket back alive, appearing to the world to have overcome death.

Which he then enters the beast role.
 
Upvote 0