mister rogers
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Sorry if any confusion, that was meant as a response to Trevor.
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What is your belief of the trinity that helps you understand the 3 in 1 concept of God.
The Father is not the son , The Son and the Father is not the Holy Spirit, Yet all are one God.
How do you with our limited human knowledge of God get through this one?
I appreciate your response, but I usually approach the subject of Jesus from the perspective of the narrative and teachings of Luke chapters 1 and 2 and I cannot reconcile these with the Trinity claims.Hebrews 1:2: "has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through WHOM also He made the worlds;"
This is the exact same thing being talked about in the following about the Word:
John 1:2-3: "He was in the beginning WITH God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."
Regardless of world/ages (either one is prior to the incarnation), you say "through whom" means "with a view to whom" or "with him in mind". But that seems to me to be trying to change what it says to give it a different meaning. I just accept what it says. What about John 1:2-3?Greetings again mister rogers,
I appreciate your response, but I usually approach the subject of Jesus from the perspective of the narrative and teachings of Luke chapters 1 and 2 and I cannot reconcile these with the Trinity claims.
As far as Hebrews 1:2 “worlds” is literally “ages”. Thus through God’s Son all the Ages were made, whether Antediluvian, Patriarchal, Mosaic, Gentile or future Messianic, in the sense that in all His arrangements God had His Son in view. Thus all the ages, past, present and future were designed by God with Christ in mind. One suggestion of the meaning is "with a view to whom, He (God) made the ages".
I also believe that the Bible clearly teaches that Yahweh, God the Father is the Creator, for example Psalm 8:1-3. Paul uses the phrase “all things” adjacent to the phrase that you are suggesting:
Hebrews 1:2 (KJV): Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
This is quoting and alluding to the following:
Psalm 8:4–6 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Jesus’ origin is that he has been made lower than the angels and he then suffered and died and he was then raised from the dead and exalted to inherit all things. Paul expounds Psalm 8:4-6 more extensively in Hebrews 2 and speaks of the Age to Come.
Kind regards
Trevor
If we use the English word “through” then we would end up with your view that Jesus or God the Son is the direct agent in the creation or the ages, but my Enhanced Strongs seems to give equal weight to the second alternative “on account of”.Regardless of world/ages (either one is prior to the incarnation), you say "through whom" means "with a view to whom" or "with him in mind". But that seems to me to be trying to change what it says to give it a different meaning. I just accept what it says.
Jesus does not appear until John 1:14.What about John 1:2-3?
Also, if you know how to break down the Word of God correctly, you can see the 3 aspects of God in His name.
God the Father = I AM who I AM (HaYah asher HaYah in Hebrew) Exodus 3:14
God the Son, Yah-shuah = I AM Salvation
God the Spirit, Christos = Annointing/Annointed
Jesus Christ (Yahshua Hamashiach) came in the Name of the Father (Yah). His atoning flesh and blood sacrifice is our Salvation (Shua), and He had the Anointing Holy Spirit (Christos).
The Word of Truth is "Jesus Christ" and THIS is how you rightly divide that Word into each of the 3 aspects of God's character.
Since God is omnipresent (everywhere at once),
why is it so difficult to see Him as only
3 Manifestations of God with 3 different names?
I would have NO problem seeing Him as many
Persons (or Manifestations), all with different names!
Almighty God is limitless in His power, etc. etc.
He can do whatever He wishes ...
like reveal Himself in as many forms as He wishes
with as many Names as he wishes!
Is this rank heresy also? lol ...Anything else is rank heresy.
And no, this is not up for debate,
at least not here.
All interesting. Still haven't heard an explanation for John 1:2-3 though.Greetings again mister rogers,If we use the English word “through” then we would end up with your view that Jesus or God the Son is the direct agent in the creation or the ages, but my Enhanced Strongs seems to give equal weight to the second alternative “on account of”.
1 through. 1a of place. 1a1 with. 1a2 in. 1b of time. 1b1 throughout. 1b2 during. 1c of means. 1c1 by. 1c2 by the means of. 2 through. 2a the ground or reason by which something is or is not done. 2a1 by reason of. 2a2 on account of. 2a3 because of for this reason. 2a4 therefore. 2a5 on this account.
Also you seem to be ignoring the context of Hebrews 1:1 where the subject is God, and this is defining God as God the Father who has previously spoken through the prophets in the past in many portions and ways, but in the last days he has spoken in a Son. There is here no mention of a Trinity, but of the One God, and a Son, and this is teaching that Jesus is the Son of God. The whole theme of the letter is the contrast between the partial and temporary revelation in the Law to the complete revelation in God's Son in the last days of Judah's commonwealth. All the ages find their focus in this full revelation in Jesus. It is not speaking of the natural or Genesis creation.
Also it speaks of Jesus becoming the heir, but if Jesus is the creator, then he is already the Lord and owner. Psalm 8 speaks of Yahweh being the Lord of heaven and earth, and then giving birth to Jesus to become the heir. Thus Jesus is not the creator.Jesus does not appear until John 1:14.
Kind regards
Trevor
As you said, he can do whatever he wishes. And that's the point. If the Bible, GOD's word, says he is a certain way, that settles it, no matter what we think about it. No matter if we think he should be more like what would be easier for us to understand. How God is is his prerogative. That being said, God's word about himself is clear (again, no matter if we do or don't understand it all) that God is a triunity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.Since God is omnipresent (everywhere at once),
why is it so difficult to see Him as only
3 Manifestations of God with 3 different names?
I would have NO problem seeing Him as many
Persons (or Manifestations), all with different names!
Almighty God is limitless in His power, etc. etc.
He can do whatever He wishes ...
like reveal Himself in as many forms as He wishes
with as many Names as he wishes!
I take it for granted that the exact nature of God is beyond human comprehension, and that being told what it is in general terms only, as the Bible does, is sufficient.What is your belief of the trinity that helps you understand the 3 in 1 concept of God.
The Father is not the son , The Son and the Father is not the Holy Spirit, Yet all are one God.
How do you with our limited human knowledge of God get through this one?
Is this rank heresy also? lol ...
The word clearly says:
-- the Word came down from heaven
-- Gabriel instructed that ...
the Word made flesh was to be CALLED:
"Jesus" (Lk 1:31)
"the Son of the Highest" (Lk 1:32)
"the Son of God" (Lk 1:35)
Why didn't Gabriel say the Word WAS these people?
Because God desired that we use these names
to describe the Word made flesh.
They say this Person was "fully human"!That's not "people", that is the one eternal Person of the Word, the only-begotten Son of the Father, whose name is Jesus Christ our Lord.